Starship design history in light of Discovery

[Tuskin38]

But they didn’t change history, so everything we saw with the Ent-J fighting the Sphere Builders in the 26th century didn’t happen. Daniels just showed Archer a possible future history.

Daniels said that was the future the sphere builders saw, which is why they tried to change history to prevent it.

The Enterprise-J existed in a timeline where the Delphic Expanse grew unchecked for centuries. "Zero Hour" destroyed the Spheres and Expanse in 2153, changing everything thereafter. If there is a prime Enterprise-J, it would look entirely different. If it's made by the Disco people, it will look entirely different on principle.

There is nothing in the dialogue to suggest this.

The sphere builders only appeared to be in the Delphic expanse because of the Federation threat.

They even gave the Xindi 26th century tech.

 

[Dukhat]

Daniels said that was the future the sphere builders saw, which is why they tried to change history to prevent it.

But it was still an alternate future, because it was the result of the Expanse expanding from the 22nd century onwards, something it absolutely did not do in ENT, DSC, TOS, TAS, the TOS films, TNG, DS9, VOY, and the TNG films which make up the prime universe.

 

[F. King Daniel]

There is nothing in the dialogue to suggest this.

The sphere builders only appeared to be in the Delphic expanse because of the Federation threat.

They even gave the Xindi 26th century tech.

Of course there is. The Delphic Expanse fills the quadrant in the future Archer was shown. It is then destroyed in "Zero Hour", rendering that future timeline invalid.

 

[Spaceship Jo]

Where did Eaves say that?

I can't get the direct quote anymore, as it was before the Great Eaves Facebook Reboot of 2018. So lacking the direct quote, I can solidly say it was at least clearly implied, but I can't swear that it was outright stated.

 

[Tuskin38]

I can't get the direct quote anymore, as it was before the Great Eaves Facebook Reboot of 2018. So lacking the direct quote, I can solidly say it was at least clearly implied, but I can't swear that it was outright stated.

I know I posted theorizing that was the case around the same time Eaves was saying stuff on Facebook.

 

[DaveyNY]

Of course there is. The Delphic Expanse fills the quadrant in the future Archer was shown. It is then destroyed in "Zero Hour", rendering that future timeline invalid.

But it doesn't invalidate the Enterprise-J still being built by then.

 

[F. King Daniel]

But it doesn't invalidate the Enterprise-J still being built by then.

Sure, there may be an Enterprise-J but with the 400 years being very different, it may be unrecognisable. Plus, if we ever saw it, it would be a product of the Discovery people and thus it would look completely different anyway just because

 

[cooleddie74]

Although if Star Trek 2009 proved anything it's that if the flow of history is meant to give us a certain ship and crew it'll find a way to do so even if the final products look slightly different. There'll probably be a monstrously-sized Enterprise-J even if the one in the "corrected" timeline has, say, blue warp nacelles and lots of shouting Vulcans.

 

[fireproof78]

Although if Star Trek 2009 proved anything it's that if the flow of history is meant to give us a certain ship and crew it'll find a way to do so even if the final products look slightly different. There'll probably be a monstrously-sized Enterprise-J even if the one in the "corrected" timeline has, say, blue warp nacelles and lots of shouting Vulcans.

As well as the Mirror Universe since Kirk took command of the Enterprise by assassinating Pike in that Universe.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

Sure, there may be an Enterprise-J but with the 400 years being very different, it may be unrecognisable. Plus, if we ever saw it, it would be a product of the Discovery people and thus it would look completely different anyway just because

In the universe we know, they built 6 Enterprises in, what, 127 years? Then only four more (assuming no "I" in the next 273 years with an centuries long war with the Sphere Builders™? They must have skipped a few decades here and there

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

As well as the Mirror Universe since Kirk took command of the Enterprise by assassinating Pike in that Universe.

And the mirror counterparts of the prime crew all happened to become the crew of the mirror ship. What a coincidence in an otherwise divergent timeline! And both ships' overall missions -- which one has to assume were very different -- had them simultaneously visiting the Halkans; same landing party even, beaming up at the same moment.

As the saying goes, the more things change, the more they stay the same. That must be equally true for things that happen in the mirror universe.

 

[Timo]

Assuming the use of the definite article is appropriate, that is.

For all we know, there are infinite universes (many episodes insist on this, after all), and the Mirror thing is a selection process based on human psyche (this being the principal observable difference, after all) and selecting the universe where the swicharoo-bound heroes will find their specific counterparts, or the lacunae left by them (this is what we observe, after all). So Lorca finds the Mirror Lorcaverse and drags others with him, Kirk finds the Mirror Kirkverse, Sisko the Mirror Siskoverse, etc. And any similarities between the 'verses are largely coincidental.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Irishman]

Real world explanation:
The lack of a coherent design language is obviously a misjudgement of the powers that be. Not quite as severe as the complete klingon re-design, but it's obvious they chose the wrong balance between re-design and honouring what came before. Not too surprising with the guy in charge being the same one responsible for the crappy Lost in Space reboot movie. Since everyone already mentioned Axanar (and since both the fan film AND Discovery are so thematically similar, about a pre-Kirk klingon/Federation war), whatever missgivings I have about Axanar, they got the starship design language of the era right. As did the Kelvin movies, which all fit better with TOS than the DIS ships. (Note: This is purely about production design, not the overall quality of those works)

In univers explanation:
The one in-universe explanation I could offer is that the choice of nacelles (round vs. square) has less to do with the actual launching date, and more the tasks of the starships: The Discovery is a mere science vessel, and the Shenzhou was also operating in/near the borders of Federation space. The fleet at the binary stars might be made up of patrol ships. All of them operate near home turf, so they need fast engines, but are in reach for regular maintenance. All of them have square engines. As did for example the USS Grissom. The Enterprise (1701), the Franklin and the Kelvin were all deep exploration vessels. They need longterm reliable, low-maintenance engines. It's more important that they work over years with minimal interruptions, than how fast they are. All of them have round engines.
So far, my personal theory goes:

square engines: Used for travel in Federation borders. Very fast and/or easier to mass produce.
round engines: Longterm durable engines for deep-space exploration

That is, untill the TOS-movies, where old starships get equipped with a new type of engine, that is square, but still usable for long-term service (Enterprise refit, Miranda). Which is then superseeded my a new, transwarp-engine (the Excelsior's nacelles), which is the basis for the "new" warp-speed scale that TNG used, and a predecessor to the mass produced TNG-engines with red bussards/blue glowing lines on the sides.

I think it was a tremendous error to let John Eaves design anything other than alien starships, because - in the Star Trek universe - his underlying artistic style shines through more readily and coheres as alien better than human/Federation. A fan artist that I would compare Eaves to would be our own Atolm. Even though he does try his hand at human/Federation starships from time to time, if i were making my own fan film, he'd be my first choice to design alien ships for me.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[cooleddie74]

In the universe we know, they built 6 Enterprises in, what, 127 years? Then only four more (assuming no "I" in the next 273 years with an centuries long war with the Sphere Builders™? They must have skipped a few decades here and there

Well, it did take Starfleet 84 years between the decommissioning of the NX-01 at the birth of the Federation and the commissioning of the NCC-1701. You'd think a starship with the legendary track record of Jonathan Archer's vessel would have another ship named after it sooner than that, but...hey. Who am I to judge Starfleet's starship naming conventions?

 

[Tuskin38]

So according to the Season 1 special features, the Sun in the middle of the ISS Charon was not an idea from the writers. It was part of the Charon’s design from the start, and the writers/producers liked it so much they incorporated it into the story by turning it into Mycelium.

 

[Dukhat]

Well, it did take Starfleet 84 years between the decommissioning of the NX-01 at the birth of the Federation and the commissioning of the NCC-1701. You'd think a starship with the legendary track record of Jonathan Archer's vessel would have another ship named after it sooner than that, but...hey. Who am I to judge Starfleet's starship naming conventions?

Here’s my head-canon for that: after the NX-01 was decommissioned and the Federation and Fed-Starfleet was formed, there were actually several starships named Enterprise constructed in that 84 year period, but they were under the auspices of UESPA, not Starfleet. By the time of TOS, the NCC-1701 had just carried over into Starfleet usage, and UESPA was either disbanded or dissolved into Starfleet fully.

 

[cooleddie74]

That, or Enterprise was so unique or such a controversial starship with some cultures that joined the Federation that someone in Starfleet Command vetoed the idea of having another Enterprise for decades. "Enterprise is such a lofty name for any other starship to live up to, why bother? Let's stick to using other names for now."

After all those historic first contacts and literally saving Earth from destruction - both from the Xindi and then the Romulans - Enterprise was a legendary vessel with a reputation no other ship with the same name could likely live up to. Thus it took several more generations for Starfleet to have the guts and willpower to name another starship after Archer's and then April, Pike and Kirk became such legendary commanders with even more impressive records so the idea of another Enterprise after the NCC-1701 was destroyed was a no-brainer.

"Hey, we were probably going to build another Enterprise after this one anyways. Admiral Kirk just saved Earth from the Whale Probe, let's just rechristen the Yorktown the Enterprise NCC-1701-A!"

 

[STEPhon IT]

No way. This would be a complete insult to the USS Yorktown, her Captain, and its own illustrious history; because we didn't see it doesn't mean that ship didn't have one. Also, by that time during the TOS movie verse, Starfleet is making space vessels as fast as airplanes; there's no way that organization would rechristen the Yorktown as if they're a Trekfanatic.

 

[Dukhat]

That, or Enterprise was so unique or such a controversial starship with some cultures that joined the Federation that someone in Starfleet Command vetoed the idea of having another Enterprise for decades. "Enterprise is such a lofty name for any other starship to live up to, why bother? Let's stick to using other names for now."

After all those historic first contacts and literally saving Earth from destruction - both from the Xindi and then the Romulans - Enterprise was a legendary vessel with a reputation no other ship with the same name could likely live up to. Thus it took several more generations for Starfleet to have the guts and willpower to name another starship after Archer's and then April, Pike and Kirk became such legendary commanders with even more impressive records so the idea of another Enterprise after the NCC-1701 was destroyed was a no-brainer.

"Hey, we were probably going to build another Enterprise after this one anyways. Admiral Kirk just saved Earth from the Whale Probe, let's just rechristen the Yorktown the Enterprise NCC-1701-A!"

That would imply that for 84 years, no other Starfleet vessel had the same experiences that the NX-01 had, and therefore, was not as “special.” I find that hard to believe.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I am sure they will at some point retcon another new Enterprise into the continuity (NCC-701, probably), post-NX and pre-TOS. And superfans will bend over backwards to prove that no continuity has been violated while the rest of us just roll our eyes...