Even giving the writers the benefit of the doubt, these kinds of stories are rarely rewarding and often times do a disservice to the character.
Spock as a mystic in Season 2
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Even giving the writers the benefit of the doubt, these kinds of stories are rarely rewarding and often times do a disservice to the character.
Agreed.
Such as? While I'll admit that the whole Spock on a journey thing is a bit uncertain story, given the long history of the character, I also am willing to give it a chance.
Also, if one does't regard this as the same Spock in TOS then what's the harm?
There are lots of examples that don't end up playing well. One major example would be Anakin Skywalker from the Star Wars prequel trilogy.
Another problem is the whole idea of why Spock is the way he is in TOS. Spock was an evolving character in TOS, not static from beginning to end. Spock in "Where No Man...", "Carbomite..." and "The Man Trap" is a lot closer to "The Cage" version of the character than where he finally ended up.
If we have to start ignoring episodes in order to make the current PTB interpretations fit, then it really isn't the same character/universe.
Fair point.
I don't follow because I'm not sure what's being ignored here, thus far.
I don't expect Spock to be the same from episode to episode, at least not identical. So, I'm struggling with the concept that TOS Spock is the static being, and that Peck's Spock will somehow detract from that.
If you're doing a story of "why Spock is the Spock we know from TOS?", the question becomes: which Spock? Spock was an evolving character in TOS. What about Spock in TOS needs to have a story to tell us why he's that way? And if its about Spock being stoic and embracing logic, you have to skip over some of the early material when Spock clearly wasn't as stoic nor logical.
There is no need. He is just an interesting character that people want to know the backstory off, hence the Kelvin films and there largely successful portrayal of Spock and his struggles.
I would imagine the Spock is the Spock of "WNMHGB" or "The Corbomite Maneuver" as well as his personal struggles with his family, which Spock was loathed to talk about.
If it doesn't work then it has down as much harm as Rogue One did to ANH-namely, none. Or even the PT to the OT. No story "needs" to be told. People want to tell these stories, and Spock is a (pardon the pun) fascinating character so I can't fault people for wanting to explore him more.
It might be completely unsuccessful and that's fine. But, I don't mind that they are trying and I don't see it as a disservice to the character.
I can't speak for anyone else, but when I watch the original Star Wars trilogy now, there's always the nagging bits from the prequel trilogy which colors my viewing. Especially where Vader is involved. I no longer see Vader as a bad ass, but as a whiny spoiled teenager.
Of course, YMMV.
Yeah, I know MMV and does in this instance. I watch the OT and it's just the OT. I don't think about the PT, ST or even Rogue One.
Anakin WAS a very whiny and confused character.
That's one of the major parts of the story.
HIs journey from a child to adult is one of constantly hearing that he's the "Chosen One" and then nobody really helping him figure out how to deal with that.
(once Qui-gon died)
Constantly being told to figure something like that out for yourself is not conducive to acting "normal".
The moment that he actually becomes Vader, is the culmination of a life lived full of frustration and bitterness.
That's one of the major parts of the story.
HIs journey from a child to adult is one of constantly hearing that he's the "Chosen One" and then nobody really helping him figure out how to deal with that.
(once Qui-gon died)
Constantly being told to figure something like that out for yourself is not conducive to acting "normal".
The moment that he actually becomes Vader, is the culmination of a life lived full of frustration and bitterness.
Spock from "The Cage" to "Where No Man Has Gone Before", no need to complicate it. Or Spock from "The Cage" to something that's intermediate between the two pilots.
Of course, we both know we'll still see posters at the end of the season (not you) who'll be like, "How come this still isn't the Spock from TOS?!" if he's not at least mid-first-season TOS Spock. The one they're more likely to remember. But we're still talking in the dark.
As it turns out, Spock's going through stuff we didn't see before. In the 11-year-gap where it's not the Spock from TOS yet. That works. Potentially. He's not even who we see in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" yet, but maybe moving passed "The Cage", and there's a enough room in there for Ethan Peck to find his own space to play this new point we see Spock at.
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That’s not really the point, though, is it? The point is that for two decades we had no idea what Vader was like when he was Anakin other than in our minds, or the circumstances behind his turning to the dark side (which was implied to have been a gradual change over time) and then Lucas comes along and shows that he was a whiny lovestruck boy-band member who turns to the dark side in seconds for no real logical reason. It’s a half-ass explanation and as King Bob said, diminishes that character in the minds of the audience. Some things should just be better left to the imagination.
Now with that said, I’m willing to give DSC the benefit of the doubt about Spock. Not that I really asked for or needed to see how his character becomes “what we see in TOS,” but if they do something inventive with him, great.
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Putting on my TOS Hat. This is where I see Spock's development in Early-TOS (including "The Cage"):
"The Cage" --> He's just an alien on the ship to show there's more than just Humans on the Enterprise. He smiles, shouts, shows concern. There's nothing to distinguish him as "logical" and Number One is supposed to be the character who thinks more like a computer. So this is outright not Spock from the regular series other than he's played by the same actor.
"Where No Man Has Gone Before" --> Spock's the harsh logician. Barks reports in the height of explosions, tells Kirk bluntly that he has to kill Mitchell, and views feeling as a weakness when he sees that Dr. Dehner feels and he doesn't. But he's also a bit of a hypocrite because he smiled at the beginning of the episode while playing chess with Kirk.
There's the unconscious incompetent, the conscious incompetent, the conscious competent, and the unconscious competent. When it comes to logic, Spock's trying to be the conscious competent in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" but slips at different points. The overcompensating while ignoring his own shortcomings makes him actually seem more like he's really at the conscious incompetent stage but trying to put on a good show. He confuses harshness and unfeeling with logic.
"The Corbomite Maneuver" --> Spock still raises his voice at one point while earlier criticizing Lieutenant Bailey for doing the same. But he's more consistent overall than he was in WNMHGB and even says "Fascinating" when he sees Balok's ship. In I Am Spock, Leonard Nimoy said this was the point where he felt like he had the character. I think this was a case of Leonard Nimoy finally nailing down Spock over the course of the episode as an actor.
"Mudd's Women", "The Enemy Within", and "The Man Trap" basically show the same Spock we see in "The Corbomite Maneuver". Kirk's his Captain and that's it (even though Uhura goes out of her way to say Kirk's probably the closest thing he has to a friend), he's not particularly sensitive, but he does seem fascinated and curious about things.
"The Naked Time" is the first time we get the indication that Spock gets pleasure from tormenting McCoy, saying he's delighted at the differences between them. It's also the first time Spock says he thinks of Kirk as a friend and is ashamed at not being totally neutral. At that point, this is the episode where I think we have Spock from TOS as the Spock that we know. The rest is just adding on top of it. Could any of this have been true before and we just didn't see it? Sure. But this is the point where we definitely see it.
But it looks like Spock goes down a dark path between "The Cage" and "Where No Man Has Gone Before" because look at the way he acts in WHMHGB. He's just what he thinks of as Hardcore Super-Vulcan pointing out to The Humans the things they should do and who cares of it's too hard or it's too harsh? Like I said: overcompensation. I don't think this is where Spock should end up at the end of DSC S2 but they can show him on the way to becoming more Vulcan and it's just that by the time we get to WNMHGB, we see that he got the wrong thing out of it.
"The Cage" --> He's just an alien on the ship to show there's more than just Humans on the Enterprise. He smiles, shouts, shows concern. There's nothing to distinguish him as "logical" and Number One is supposed to be the character who thinks more like a computer. So this is outright not Spock from the regular series other than he's played by the same actor.
"Where No Man Has Gone Before" --> Spock's the harsh logician. Barks reports in the height of explosions, tells Kirk bluntly that he has to kill Mitchell, and views feeling as a weakness when he sees that Dr. Dehner feels and he doesn't. But he's also a bit of a hypocrite because he smiled at the beginning of the episode while playing chess with Kirk.
There's the unconscious incompetent, the conscious incompetent, the conscious competent, and the unconscious competent. When it comes to logic, Spock's trying to be the conscious competent in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" but slips at different points. The overcompensating while ignoring his own shortcomings makes him actually seem more like he's really at the conscious incompetent stage but trying to put on a good show. He confuses harshness and unfeeling with logic.
"The Corbomite Maneuver" --> Spock still raises his voice at one point while earlier criticizing Lieutenant Bailey for doing the same. But he's more consistent overall than he was in WNMHGB and even says "Fascinating" when he sees Balok's ship. In I Am Spock, Leonard Nimoy said this was the point where he felt like he had the character. I think this was a case of Leonard Nimoy finally nailing down Spock over the course of the episode as an actor.
"Mudd's Women", "The Enemy Within", and "The Man Trap" basically show the same Spock we see in "The Corbomite Maneuver". Kirk's his Captain and that's it (even though Uhura goes out of her way to say Kirk's probably the closest thing he has to a friend), he's not particularly sensitive, but he does seem fascinated and curious about things.
"The Naked Time" is the first time we get the indication that Spock gets pleasure from tormenting McCoy, saying he's delighted at the differences between them. It's also the first time Spock says he thinks of Kirk as a friend and is ashamed at not being totally neutral. At that point, this is the episode where I think we have Spock from TOS as the Spock that we know. The rest is just adding on top of it. Could any of this have been true before and we just didn't see it? Sure. But this is the point where we definitely see it.
But it looks like Spock goes down a dark path between "The Cage" and "Where No Man Has Gone Before" because look at the way he acts in WHMHGB. He's just what he thinks of as Hardcore Super-Vulcan pointing out to The Humans the things they should do and who cares of it's too hard or it's too harsh? Like I said: overcompensation. I don't think this is where Spock should end up at the end of DSC S2 but they can show him on the way to becoming more Vulcan and it's just that by the time we get to WNMHGB, we see that he got the wrong thing out of it.
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Spock's "development" in TOS wasn't the kind of development characters get in shows today. First, he had Number One's personality transplanted when her character was shown the airlock. Then, TOS was almost an anthology show with a 42-minute (or 53 minutes, back then) reset. There was no arc, just a bunch of events with very little follow-up. He had actual character development in the classic and modern movies.
The whole idea of young Spock being emotional comes from an early-installment-weirdness pilot episode and subsequent personality transplant rendering it an anomaly. Really the whole thing is so vague, and Disco's treatment of continuity so loose, they'll do whatever they want. I'm expecting a ST'09-style volotile Spock, this time with apocalyptic visions and a sister. After the crisis is over, he'll shave, cut his hair, put on his blue uniform and will be vaguely the Spock we know.
The whole idea of young Spock being emotional comes from an early-installment-weirdness pilot episode and subsequent personality transplant rendering it an anomaly. Really the whole thing is so vague, and Disco's treatment of continuity so loose, they'll do whatever they want. I'm expecting a ST'09-style volotile Spock, this time with apocalyptic visions and a sister. After the crisis is over, he'll shave, cut his hair, put on his blue uniform and will be vaguely the Spock we know.
I'm not saying there was an arc. I'm saying exactly what you say. Number One's personality was transplanted onto Spock in the second episode, the actor found his niche with the character in the third, and in the seventh they figured out how to best write Spock off of Kirk and McCoy.
I'm also saying this is where Spock was in those early episodes. Whatever the Disco writers want to do with that information, they can do. But it's there.
If no other episodes ever existed, I'd still call Spock a bit of a hypocrite in WNMHGB just by looking at information from the episode itself. I blame that on the writers not having a handle on the character yet. But, in retrospect, it also looks like Spock not having a handle on whoever he wants to be either. He wants to be one thing but he doesn't always quite measure up to it.
I'm also saying this is where Spock was in those early episodes. Whatever the Disco writers want to do with that information, they can do. But it's there.
If no other episodes ever existed, I'd still call Spock a bit of a hypocrite in WNMHGB just by looking at information from the episode itself. I blame that on the writers not having a handle on the character yet. But, in retrospect, it also looks like Spock not having a handle on whoever he wants to be either. He wants to be one thing but he doesn't always quite measure up to it.
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While there was no arc, mostly because that's not how TV was written in those days, the character did evolve. Kirk's character evolved too. From the Pike 2.0 version in the pilot and early season one to the Shatkirk we all love in later episodes. There was no arc involved just writers and actors developing a character.
Garth, I love your analysis of the character's evolution during the first season, it seems right on the money, but it does sound a bit like you are saying based on your characterization of Spock in "The Cage" that he can be anything prior to "The Cage", since anyone can shout, smile and show concern. The lack of development of the character as reflected in that episode had more to do with what was going on behind the scenes, and "The Cage" wasn't the originally aired pilot anyway. Regardless, it was later decided the character was Vulcan, with all the cultural implications that follow for the character which weren't originally explained in "The Cage." If we consider "The Cage" canon, Spock had to still of been Vulcan at that time, even if his character did show more of a human side. Characters do evolve and I don't expect to see TOS Spock fully formed in STD, but I am a bit disturbed by a portrayal that strongly diverges from the Spock we know in S1 of TOS, even if there are several years between STD S2 and S1 of TOS.
Fair enough. I'd consider "The Cage" canon only because they were watching it in "The Menagerie"... and McCoy (of all people!) should've said something when he saw Spock smile at the flower on Talos IV. I bet you if they weren't in a courtroom, he would've.
I don't know a thing about the Red Angels but I figure they must have at least some sort of influence over Spock. In TMP, after Spock is retrieved by the Enterprise after he tries to make physical contact with V'Ger, he starts laughing at one point. And that's a Spock who would've achieved Kholinar if it wasn't for V'Ger reaching out to him.
Going with your assertion that DSC season 2 Spock seems he may be a mystic, maybe it will be that mystic phase that has a direct bearing on his transformation from The Cage Spock to TOS Spock.
So DSC Spock may not yet be like TOS Spock, but he may be quite different than The Cage Spock. It may be a spiritual journey that helps him control his emotions to become the TOS Spock, and we may be getting a glimpse of that spiritual journey in DSC season 2.
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