The Captain is dead, long live the Captain.

[XCV330]

Archer's default strategy "I'll go over there and get beat up for awhile, till they realize my sincerity or a deus machina gets the writers out of that corner" probably should have left him with a short lifespan.

I do think if they had brought in another captain they still might have had trouble knowing what to do with him or her.

 

[sekundant]

Heyy, no one will be ever promoted here. Didn't you watch the TATV? Not even after 10 years and a great war...A masterpiece of two magnificent geniuses of our time, Berman and Braga!

I can understand, why some people don't like Archer. I must say, I found him a little bit awkward as I first watch ENT at the time the show aired. I realized the reason for this, when I fall in love with the show. It was not the fictional character Jonathan Archer or Scott Bakula. It was how Archer written by BnB: it was not consistently the same person. He can handle one episode in very mature way, next time he is a stubborn child. It took too much time to develop his real character. It seems at he beginning he has no idea about conflict management, which is one of the first mandatory course you have to complete before you apply for a leadership in every modern company. They have nearly a century to prepare for the first regularly mission of first warp five capable ship of earth.They could recruit and install a capable, well trained crew with an (flexible but with defined priorities) agenda. The Fail was completely BnB's work. Maybe all those Archer haters hate in fact all these circumstances. I read some scrips, Scott Bakula made the best from the material he got.

If I had a chance to choose , who will be Captain oh my Captain? I am a red shirt, so I cannot survive under command of T. Kirk. Picard would have no clue about me. I cannot stand unreasonable anger outbursts of Uncle Sam Sisko. Janeway is for me very bad caricature of a female leader, a wannabe badass.

I would serve with joy and respect under Archer and would believe him. Gornsky thank you for your appropriate words:

I never saw him as bumbling, awkward, or a fool. At worst, he was idealistic and a bit naive. He led by inspiration, enthusiasm and loyalty. I thought he was structured as the personification of humans reaching out into space with a sense of exploration and adventure, getting a very firm reality check and having to adapt quickly or die.

At least, he would be beaten for me (or any other red shirt) from any random alien as every hero from our childhood would do.

Imho, if they killed BnB early enough, we would not discuss about the killing of most human captain ever.

 

[Burning Hearts of Qo'nos]

I started ENT a couple weeks ago and at first I was like, this guy is such a dummy. Almost halfway in, I can honestly say that him being such a dummy (along with his dummy crew) makes the show a lot of fun to watch, if not sometimes cringey. Archer is a bumbling fool, and I kinda love him for that.

A Night in Sickbay was probably one of the worst episodes of ST I've ever seen for many, many reasons, but god dammit if loving how irrational and ridiculous Archer was acting (I mean, I love beagles too, but he took him on a diplomatic mission with a race that was already upset with him??) is wrong then I don't wanna be right. And all his ham-fisted musings about future things like the Federation and the Prime Directive while also winking at the camera, I love it!

That said, I'd be pretty pissed if I get to season 3 next week to find out that Archer gets killed.

 

[Nyotarules]

That said, I'd be pretty pissed if I get to season 3 next week to find out that Archer gets killed.

Admiral Archer will live till the 23rd century - ST09

 

[Kor]

Admiral Archer will live till the 23rd century - ST09

Welllll... In ST09 they didn't say what Admiral Archer's first name was. It could have been a completely unrelated Archer who also happened to like beagles.

Kor

 

[Shaka Zulu]

MeToo! I never saw him as bumbling, awkward, or a fool. At worst, he was idealistic and a bit naive. He led by inspiration, enthusiasm and loyalty. I thought he was structured as the personification of humans reaching out into space with a sense of exploration and adventure, getting a very firm reality check and having to adapt quickly or die.

Look, the guy said it best in that homecoming episode to Hernandez: 'I lost my innocence out there'. He didn't start out as a seasoned guy, but became one, which is just as better.

Admiral Archer will live till the 23rd century - ST09

Most likely, that was a son or daughter of Archer, not Archer himself, who'd become a captain and then was promoted to admiral in the years between the events of Enterprise and the 2009 movie.

 

[Nyotarules]

Welllll... In ST09 they didn't say what Admiral Archer's first name was. It could have been a completely unrelated Archer who also happened to like beagles.

Kor

True, but I think it was meant to be an Easter egg to ENT but I doubt a former Federation President would go back to being an active Admiral at 146 years. Not impossible for Star Trek but doubtful.

 

[XCV330]

True, but I think it was meant to be an Easter egg to ENT but I doubt a former Federation President would go back to being an active Admiral at 146 years. Not impossible for Star Trek but doubtful.

maybe he just had Porthos stuffed long before he himself died

 

[F. King Daniel]

Welllll... In ST09 they didn't say what Admiral Archer's first name was. It could have been a completely unrelated Archer who also happened to like beagles.

Kor

Ned Archer

True, but I think it was meant to be an Easter egg to ENT but I doubt a former Federation President would go back to being an active Admiral at 146 years. Not impossible for Star Trek but doubtful.

I wonder how many of the fan base know about Archer's barely-seen screengraphic where it says he becomes a president?

Plus, probably didn't happen in the Kelvin Universe.

 

[Nyotarules]

Ned Archer

I wonder how many of the fan base know about Archer's barely-seen screengraphic where it says he becomes a president?

Plus, probably didn't happen in the Kelvin Universe.

Yeah in the Kelvin universe his 'Make Earth great again' slogan went down like a lead balloon, and he lost the election.

 

[DarKush]

I wouldn't have minded if Archer had been killed off, he was a bit of a bumbling fool, IMO. Ben Browder could've been brought in as the mentioned but never seen Captain Gardner (they could've snapped him up before he went on to SG-1), or Captain Alex Chase played by the likes of Melinda Clarke or Dina Meyer, or maybe a Captain of Middle Eastern origin.

Ha, this got me thinking. ENT should've brought in Browder and Claudia Black for ENT season four, a rescue attempt like they was done with Stargate SG-1. Would've been fun to see that.

I thought Archer improved by Season 3, the "Dark Archer" of that season was my favorite Prime universe take on him. I really liked him best in the Mirror Universe. But overall, the writing wasn't there for Archer and I felt they did far more telling us he was great than showing us he was great. Bakula also gave an awkward, constrained and constipated performance that didn't help matters either. I don't blame Bakula more so the writing or conception of Archer. I think the shoot from the lip adventurer that we saw glimpses of in the pilot was the original idea for the character, but for some reason they backed away from going the kind of Indiana Jones, pre-Kirk route for him. And they didn't replace that with anything half as interesting. The writers wrote more easily for Trip and I would've been fine with Trip becoming captain in Season 4. His brief time in the captain's chair during the Vulcan Reformation was a nice glimpse of what that could've been like.

Put Trip in the captain's chair, keep T'Pol as XO and have them deal with their feelings in this now altered relationship. And add a new chief engineer, which would also have provided an opportunity to add more diversity to the cast. Just came to mind, perhaps an ancestor of Sonya Gomez, since that character got short shrift on TNG.

While I don't think they knew much what to do with Archer, I do think Bakula was a good ambassador for ENT. And I was excited when I heard he was cast, because I was a big fan of Quantum Leap. But ENT didn't capitalize on all that Bakula could bring to the project.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Ha, this got me thinking. ENT should've brought in Browder and Claudia Black for ENT season four, a rescue attempt like they was done with Stargate SG-1. Would've been fun to see that.

Add Anthony Simcoe, Virginia Hey, Gigi Edgley, Paul Goddard, Lani Tupu, Wayne Pygram, Tammy MacIntosh, Raelee Hill, Melissa Jaffer, and Rygel XVI to the vast and ENT would've been something truly great to watch!

 

[Mage]

I liked Archer a lot actually.

And I still don't understand fans who say there should have been a more experienced captain on the Enterprise....

Guys.... It's Earth's FIRST Warp 5 starship. FIRST!!! There has never been anyone who was actually WAAAAAAY out there, for LOOOOOOOONG time before Enterprise set out. No one had the experience. Literally. No one. It's the most silly excuse people ever gave for not liking Archer. He was supposed to make mistake. That's the whole point of Enterprise. How humanity stumbled into the frontier as a bunch of monkeys. Do you actually think that if we had FTL right now, and went into the unknown, we would do everything right??

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Guys.... It's Earth's FIRST Warp 5 starship. FIRST!!! There has never been anyone who was actually WAAAAAAY out there, for LOOOOOOOONG time before Enterprise set out. No one had the experience. Literally. No one.

The have the likes of the Intrepid and Delta-types, they have ships on which someone could cut their teeth, build relations with nearby neighbouring races, engage in tactical manoeuvres, etc., they might not be able to go as fast the NX-Class but they can log the light-years. Also the leader of such a mission should have undergone extensive diplomatic and political training. Archer's only skill seems to be that of a test pilot, for a mission heading into the unknown the leader of the mission should've been more of a diplomat or negotiator, at least someone supportive of their long-standing allies and not alien them at every opportunity merely because they counselled patience and caution.

 

[Mage]

The have the likes of the Intrepid and Delta-types, they have ships on which someone could cut their teeth, build relations with nearby neighbouring races, engage in tactical manoeuvres, etc., they might not be able to go as fast the NX-Class but they can log the light-years. Also the leader of such a mission should have undergone extensive diplomatic and political training. Archer's only skill seems to be that of a test pilot, for a mission heading into the unknown the leader of the mission should've been more of a diplomat or negotiator, at least someone supportive of their long-standing allies and not alien them at every opportunity merely because they counselled patience and caution.

What political and diplomatic training? That's under the assumption all alien races will reason and think the way we do, and that Archer could be trained like that. That's the whole kicker. Everything out there is non-human, so no one can be prepared to face that, except by going out there and experience it.

For example, all human insights into politics and diplomacy would never have prepared anyone for dealing with a Tellarite. Except for being the first one to experience it, and then going to back to Earth and say 'Guys, you're not gonna believe this! We trained so much into a human mindset of doing things, and turns out aliens out there actually do it totally different!'

As for the Intrepids and Delta's..... IIRC the Delta's are kinda slow really, and the Intrepids were an offshot of the NX, build along side, not before.

 

[DarKush]

Add Anthony Simcoe, Virginia Hey, Gigi Edgley, Paul Goddard, Lani Tupu, Wayne Pygram, Tammy MacIntosh, Raelee Hill, Melissa Jaffer, and Rygel XVI to the vast and ENT would've been something truly great to watch!

Ha. I see, so basically just replace the entire crew of the NX-01 for Season 4? Or just switch the focus to say the S.S. Farscape or Moya?

Some of those additions would've worked very well. Pygram as the main Romulan antagonist. Tupu perhaps as a Klingon commander. Keep Virginia Hey blue as an Andorian. Edgley could be an Orion perhaps. Lots of ways they could go.

 

[DarKush]

I liked Archer a lot actually.

And I still don't understand fans who say there should have been a more experienced captain on the Enterprise....

Guys.... It's Earth's FIRST Warp 5 starship. FIRST!!! There has never been anyone who was actually WAAAAAAY out there, for LOOOOOOOONG time before Enterprise set out. No one had the experience. Literally. No one. It's the most silly excuse people ever gave for not liking Archer. He was supposed to make mistake. That's the whole point of Enterprise. How humanity stumbled into the frontier as a bunch of monkeys. Do you actually think that if we had FTL right now, and went into the unknown, we would do everything right??

I think experience can play a role here. For one, the Vulcans had been out in space far longer than humans, but Earth picks a captain who has a notable dislike, if not bias, against Vulcans? The same species who could be great resources of information and advice to help further Earth's exploration aims? Further, there is just experience in terms of space travel, encounters with other species (like Mayweather and the Boomers had, which seemed more well-traveled than Archer), and also a matter of temperament and judgment. I thought Archer as he was portrayed didn't measure up until the third season. He came off too much like a 'daddy's boy' with a grudge against Vulcans. To me, it wasn't an issue of making mistakes. All the other Trek captains made mistakes, and they had centuries's more knowledge and training than Archer, but it's a temperament and judgment thing for me when it comes to why I get some of the criticism for Archer.

Another thing that never set right with me about Archer is that he never got called on his b.s. regarding the Vulcans. Instead the show justified his bias against them. I was hoping the Vulcan Reformation arc where he carried Surak's katra would be a great transformation for him and that he would start to have a deeper understanding and appreciation for Vulcan history, culture, and their way of seeing things. That he would become more connected to the planet and its peoples. Unfortunately the show was canceled before that could happen, but even in the remaining episodes I didn't see much of a lasting change due to Archer's experience. And that's a shame. It could've been a nice character arc for him, and also reinforced the idea of IDIC, that Archer started the series in one place, with one view regarding Vulcans, but his mind was changed, his views expanded, by the end of the series.

 

[gornsky]

I liked Archer a lot actually.
That's the whole point of Enterprise. How humanity stumbled into the frontier as a bunch of monkeys.

This is the aspect of ENTERPRISE that I enjoyed the most. Seeing the story of humans stumbling into space, constrained by the wise yet patronising Vulcans no more. No one could deny that the Vulcans had the intelligence and experience, but humans weren't going into space following the Vulcan Space Academy handbook. They were going do it differently -- humanly -- make mistakes and learn from them. There are things the humans achieved, and quickly, that would never have occured to the Vulcans. I liked seeing those little vignettes that explored the origins of shields, red alerts, the universal translator, the prime directive. It was much more of a frontier show and Archer, "bumbling" if you must, was a frontier captain.

I found myself less invested in Next Generation and on reflection there was something very urbane and controlled about it. If I tune in now, I can't get over how much the bridge looks like a giant floating lounge room in space, how many times they sat down around the dining table and calmly talked at length about what they might to do next. How much time they spent indulging their fantasies in the holodeck. How many members of their families dropped by. These are old arguments I know, and to each their own, but I find I prefer the struggle, the dirt under the fingernails, the isolation, the thinking on your feet, the "bumbling into space" kind of Trek. It feels more palpable and graspable and exciting to me.

 

[Nyotarules]

I think experience can play a role here. For one, the Vulcans had been out in space far longer than humans, but Earth picks a captain who has a notable dislike, if not bias, against Vulcans?

If V'Las was in charge of the Vulcan government during those 90 odd years I can understand Archer's attitude, since the Vulcans were coming across as treating Earth like a semi benevolent, colonial master. And V'Las motives for running things were not in Earth's or Vulcan's best interest. It was not until Soval admitted the reason for their extreme caution was because Humans reminded them of themselves, which scared the logical shit out of them. (The incident with the Andorians proved the Vulcan government was corrupt anyway).
I suspect the other Starfleet brass shared Archer's views but were more professional in not displaying it. Following the Vulcan High command's advice blindly would not have made Archer a good captain either.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

What political and diplomatic training? That's under the assumption all alien races will reason and think the way we do, and that Archer could be trained like that. That's the whole kicker. Everything out there is non-human, so no one can be prepared to face that, except by going out there and experience it.

For example, all human insights into politics and diplomacy would never have prepared anyone for dealing with a Tellarite. Except for being the first one to experience it, and then going to back to Earth and say 'Guys, you're not gonna believe this! We trained so much into a human mindset of doing things, and turns out aliens out there actually do it totally different!'

In the episode where they have Tellarite onboard, Hoshi gives him a run down on their behaviour, temperament and culture, yet none of this was established as having been learned in previous encounters. This means that she read it from somewhere, and with the Vulcans having an extensive database then that would be a start. They have access to resources in this regard but never seem to make use of it, he could've spent time training on Vulcan with their diplomatic corps to gain insight into other cultures, so as to broaden his mind and prepare him for what's out there, or been assigned to the Earth embassy on Denobula or another other planets they have alliances with, to gain experience with other cultures to be more open minded.

As for the Intrepids and Delta's..... IIRC the Delta's are kinda slow really, and the Intrepids were an offshot of the NX, build along side, not before.

There was nothing said about the Intrepid being built in conjuncture with the NX, if that was the case why waste time with them and not have another warp 5 ship built and ready to launch? As for the Delta's they may be slow, so it may take them longer, but they can travel as far as any other ship--just look at the cargo ships of the era, they may take a while but put in more light-years than anyone.

Making Archer the Boomer might've made him a better character, someone born to space, who knows more about it than any of the other humans onboard, who has already made contacts with some other worlds, and is well-versed in alien cultures and encounters.