“Jean-Luc Picard is back”: will new Picard show eclipse Discovery?

[fireproof78]

This is absolutely "whataboutism" - trying to distract from the current topic by pointing to other, non-comparable things and ask "what about them?"

It isn't. It's an example of ridiculous things that have been done in Star Trek before but are accepted as part of the inherent weirdness of Trek. And, not to be too technical, your own post contradicts your point. Your response to Greg Cox is that Star Trek is space opera, not hard SF, but then flip around on me and state that the spore drive has no place (and neither does Q) in a hard SF setting.

So, you'll forgive me if I'm not confused as to what standard is being applied and why it is hard to take such criticism seriously. The arguments come across as inconsistent as to what level of magic is acceptable in Star Trek. That's frustrating and confusing and comes across as "New Trek can't do anything right."

The mushroom drive is the main plot element of DIS, as such it deserves more focus than a one-off line from the Traveller or Q. That's why it's annoying if it becomes visible even less thought went into that.

Agree to disagree. If I can accept the weirdness of the Traveller or Q then the spore drive weirdness is, to me, just as acceptable.

 

[Noname Given]

There can be. But the original intent of Discovery was that the Klingons we saw are
the Klingons, not a different type. They seem to be backtracking on that now, due to the poor reception they got.

I'm really not trying to start an argument, but I never got the impression that was the 'Creator's' (as a group) intent, IE That:

"Hey, these ARE the Klingons, and how they ALWAYS appeared..." even from the start. The creators were always saying: "This will all (and not just the Klingon look, but everything) be tied into existing canon..." from day one.

In the end I may not particularly like their explanation (which I've yet to see for a lot of stuff); but I don't think their intent from day one was as you state - either before or after Bryan Fuller's involvement.

I agree that the spore drive did much to trounce the spirit of discovery from TOS . How many plots hinged on the Enterprise needing to be somewhere to end a famine, divert an asteroid, treat an outbreak of disease, mitigate the contamination from a visit many years before, or avoid destruction by the galactic barrier? All that seems trivial if there is a way to travel instantaneously , albeit I feel the same about NuTrek's long distance transporters .

Oh please - EVERY Star Trek series has had the Hero ships travel at the 'speed of plot' (IE They always showed up at whatever point the story an episode was telling required it), so yeah, sorry but that argument falls flat.

It's like how the Transporters are either forgotten about/unable to get a landing party out of danger until the end of a story, or if a plot point in the story needs it to happen.

 

[Pauln6]

I'm really not trying to start an argument, but I never got the impression that was the 'Creator's' (as a group) intent, IE That:

"Hey, these ARE the Klingons, and how they ALWAYS appeared..." even from the start. The creators were always saying: "This will all (and not just the Klingon look, but everything) be tied into existing canon..." from day one.

In the end I may not particularly like their explanation (which I've yet to see for a lot of stuff); but I don't think their intent from day one was as you state - either before or after Bryan Fuller's involvement.


Oh please - EVERY Star Trek series has had the Hero ships travel at the 'speed of plot' (IE They always showed up at whatever point the story an episode was telling required it), so yeah, sorry but that argument falls flat.

It's like how the Transporters are either forgotten about/unable to get a landing party out of danger until the end of a story, or if a plot point in the story needs it to happen.

Perhaps but those are elements that detract from the show for a significant number of technically minded fans. I don't see how compounding those errors and making them the focus of the plot will improve the show for those fans.

Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy Discovery. I'd just enjoy it more if it was less hokey. Plus this is all a matter of personal preference. I really enjoy TMP while lots of other fans don't.

 

[BillJ]

In the end I may not particularly like their explanation (which I've yet to see for a lot of stuff); but I don't think their intent from day one was as you state - either before or after Bryan Fuller's involvement.

Wasn't the reason given that they didn't have hair was because they now had some kind of sensors in their ridges?

 

[BillJ]

However, those changes are being made with a purpose. Per Trek Movie, the show's creature designers Neville Page and Glenn Hetrick have revealed that these new Klingons are bald with more pronounced ridges - because they're basically sensors. The ridges are tools that the Klingons, a predator race, utilized to climb the food chain.

https://screenrant.com/star-trek-discovery-klingon-designs-science/

Some fans might be questioning why the iconic aliens are getting yet another makeover. But the answer is to respect the former co-showrunner’s wishes. “One of the things [Bryan Fuller] really, really wanted to do was shake up the design of the Klingons,” revealed executive producer Alex Kurtzman to CBS All Access.

“One of the first things he ever pitched was his aesthetic for the Klingons and how important it was that they be aesthete,” said executive producer Aaron Harberts. “That they not be the thugs of the universe, that they be sexy and vital and different from what had come before.”

https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertai...eals-why-the-klingons-look-so-different.html/

These Klingons if I remember correctly, don't have any hair. They don't have beards, they don't have eye brows either. Now, they can retcon all of that, but I think their intent was clearly the Discovery Klingons were now the Klingons.

 

[eschaton]

^ Of course, nothing is canon unless it's actually said onscreen. And I'm 95% certain that I saw some of the Discovery cast sneak up on Klingons from behind, which should have been impossible if the "sensory pit" idea was considered part of the series bible.

 

[BillJ]

^ Of course, nothing is canon unless it's actually said onscreen. And I'm 95% certain that I saw some of the Discovery cast sneak up on Klingons from behind, which should have been impossible if the "sensory pit" idea was considered part of the series bible.

Holy shit! You just stumbled upon the 13 episode arc of season three! Why that one Klingon was easy to sneak up on!

 

[fireproof78]

Nobody cares what the author intent was. Unless it can be used against CBS. Then we should care.

TrekBBS in a nutshell

 

[BillJ]

Nobody cares what the author intent was. Unless it can be used against CBS. Then we should care.

Obviously, the reverse is true as well. As pro-Discovery folks are all about author intent until you show them what TOS authors thought about certain things. Or point out certain things said by the Discovery showrunner.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

[Jinn]

As pro-Discovery folks are all about author intent until you show them what TOS authors thought about certain things.

I think this is true to a certain degree, but it generally occured a lot less since before the show started. Fireproof does have a bit of a point though, it seems weird if people who correctly call out others for appealing to an authority appeal to the same authority for different reasons.

 

[BillJ]

I think this is true to a certain degree, but it generally occured a lot less since before the show started. Fireproof does have a bit of a point though, it seems weird if people who correctly call out others for appealing to an authority appeal to the same authority for different reasons.

I've been hit upside the head with "CBS says so" so often, I have a virtual concussion!

 

[eschaton]

Holy shit! You just stumbled upon the 13 episode arc of season three! Why that one Klingon was easy to sneak up on!

More seriously, I had a big issue with the shushing Klingon in the third episode, which no one else on the forum did. Basically considering it's not even a universal sign in anglophone countries (Brits put a finger to the side of the nose) it is inexplicable that a Klingon - part of an empire who had not been in contact with the Federation for a century - would also do that.

Other people seemed to believe I was overthinking it.

 

[Nerys Myk]

More seriously, I had a big issue with the shushing Klingon in the third episode, which no one else on the forum did. Basically considering it's not even a universal sign in anglophone countries (Brits put a finger to the side of the nose) it is inexplicable that a Klingon - part of an empire who had not been in contact with the Federation for a century - would also do that.

Other people seemed to believe I was overthinking it.

More seriously, I had a big issue with the shushing Klingon in the third episode, which no one else on the forum did. Basically considering it's not even a universal sign in anglophone countries (Brits put a finger to the side of the nose) it is inexplicable that a Klingon - part of an empire who had not been in contact with the Federation for a century - would also do that.

Other people seemed to believe I was overthinking it.

You were.

 

[fireproof78]

Obviously, the reverse is true as well. As pro-Discovery folks are all about author intent until you show them what TOS authors thought about certain things. Or point out certain things said by the Discovery showrunner.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Sure. It's just rather odd to be, as Jinn put it, constantly being told "Think for yourself!!!!" and "CBS lies!" only for authorial intent to be used to slap down arguments.

By the way, I cannot abide IDIC or its symbol because of authorial intent.

 

[Greg Cox]

By the way, I cannot abide IDIC or its symbol because of authorial intent.

I prefer to think that the notion has transcended its mercenary roots.

 

[fireproof78]

I prefer to think that the notion has transcended its mercenary roots.

I would like to as well but it rubs me the wrong way.

 

[Rahul]

That line was so head-scratchily awful I just choose to ignore it.

Yeah, this was as headscratching as ST09's "supernova that threatened to destroy the galaxy". A level of stupid better never to be mentioned again. But yet, it still happened on screen.

How are they gonna' up the ante though? In Season 1 they saved the entire Multiverse! What's in for season 2? Getting Spock to his rendez-vous on time?

I seriously hope they don't do something (more) stupid though and have the stop the biblical apocalypse or something like that...

 

[Discofan]

Yeah, this was as headscratching as ST09's "supernova that threatened to destroy the galaxy". A level of stupid better never to be mentioned again. But yet, it still happened on screen.

How are they gonna' up the ante though? In Season 1 they saved the entire Multiverse! What's in for season 2? Getting Spock to his rendez-vous on time?

I seriously hope they don't do something (more) stupid though and have the stop the biblical apocalypse or something like that...

Or one volcano (that didn't even look that big) that could destroy an entire planet.

It seems these people need to acquire a sense of proportion.

I love how they repurposed the term "cold fusion", btw...

 

[Rahul]

Or one volcano (that didn't even look that big) that could destroy an entire planet.

Actually, that one was not just possible, they even made the volcano the right size to make that likely.

As in - it's not going to blow up the planet or anything. But such a mega eruption would pretty much kill most life on that planet by polluting the atmosphere not not letting light through for years - which will kill most vegetation and thus animal life.

But the cold fusion bomb? Yeah....

 

[Discofan]

Actually, that one was not just possible, they even made the volcano the right size to make that likely.

As in - it's not going to blow up the planet or anything. But such a mega eruption would pretty much kill most life on that planet by polluting the atmosphere not not letting light through for years - which will kill most vegetation and thus animal life.

But the cold fusion bomb? Yeah....

Honestly, I've seen bigger lava fields on the discovery Channel.

A whole bunch of Volcanoes like this could do that indeed, obscure the sun and create the equivalent of a nuclear winter. But one volcano... I am not sure.

BTW, it's impossible that anything could survive where Spock was. The temperature must have been around a thousand degrees Celsius there. For one thing, his suit should have been bright yellow from the heat! and him.. an incandescent piece of charcoal.