“Jean-Luc Picard is back”: will new Picard show eclipse Discovery?
- Thread starter Groppler Zorn
- Start date
There can be. But the original intent of Discovery was that the Klingons we saw are the Klingons, not a different type. They seem to be backtracking on that now, due to the poor reception they got.
Sure it was. The whole point of the Abrams films was to be able to do a different variation of Star Trek, to do new versions of things without people screaming about continuity violations.
Well, it certainly stands to reason that anyone up in arms about the DSC ones would be, since the only one whose face we actually got to see shared 90% of the same features, including a big hairless head, deformed ears, and double nostrils...
But personally, I thought it was absolutely brilliant the way the Abrams films hid all the rest of them behind those helmets that left us unable to tell which ones were ridged and which ones were smooth—or which ones hairy and which ones bald, for that matter!
-MMoM
As I said in the other thread, it's not really the same.
1. Kelvin Klingons have pointy ears. DIS Klingons have no ears (seriously, they're just attached to the sides of their heads - take a look).
2. One Kelvin Klingon was bald, with the rest sporting hair and/or facial hair. In DIS, all of the ones we've seen (so far) are bald.
3. Most importantly, while the Kelvin Klingon we saw had makeup a bit heavier than during the Berman era, this was mostly restricted to the scalp, ears, and cheekbones. From what I can tell that's pretty much the actors natural lips and jaw. This design provides a lot of freedom for facial expression. In contrast, the DIS Klingon makeup is a mask which totally covers the face except for the eyes, heavily limiting the expressions they can make.
Basically, the DIS design is reminiscent of the Kelvin design, but upped to 11 for no particularly good reason.
Until it is demonstrated otherwise on screen I have no issue with all Klingon variants existing side by side.
My only struggle with with the way they speak. Other than that, I like the new make up and the different features. I certainly don't expect the same facial expressions from Klingons as I do humans. But, I'm my own flavor of weird.
I don't either. Though that clearly wasn't the intent of the show in the first season.
There is a lot of BTS intent that takes away from Trek. Not sure why this one has weight and others don't.
There is a lot of BTS intent that takes away from Trek. Not sure why this one has weight and others don't.
Obviously, I don't give a damn about their intent. I have no problem with the notion of these Klingons being part of a diverse race. Just noting the difference between what we think and what was the intent (remember, to some, intent is everything).
Then why are we talking about it? This conversation can serve no purposeObviously, I don't give a damn about their intent. I have no problem with the notion of these Klingons being part of a diverse race. Just noting the difference between what we think and what was the intent (remember, to some, intent is everything).
He'll just say it's sex.
People keep asserting this, but I've never bought into it for a moment. While their specific plans may indeed have developed, accelerated, or otherwise changed based on various factors including the reception, I think they always meant to throw us for a loop and then reel us back in here, just like with Michael Burnham the infamous mutineer. Their apparent irreverence has been calculated, not genuinely careless. My impression all along has been that the intent is to let loose in throwing the toys around the room...and then neatly return them to the safety of their chest by playtime's end.
"The Vulcan Hello" (DSC):
GEORGIOU: Almost no one has seen a Klingon in a hundred years...
K'VAGH: The Denobulan is working to stabilize the human DNA. You will all be healthy again, and stronger than any Klingon.
LANETH: Will he restore our appearance?
K'VAGH: I don't know.
LANETH: How do you expect us to return home looking like this? We will be outcasts. There will be no place for us in the Empire.
K'VAGH: Your heart is still Klingon.
LANETH: Are you certain of that? During the battle with the Starfleet ship, I felt fear for the first time since I was a child. I wasn't alone. I could see it in the eyes of the others. We've become like them.
[...]
PHLOX: In the future, it may be possible to reverse the cosmetic effects.
ANTAAK: I suppose this is what I deserve. Millions of my people will have to live with this disfigurement. It'll be passed on to our children. Life won't be easy for us. [...] I'll need to find a new specialty. Perhaps cranial reconstruction...
LANETH: Will he restore our appearance?
K'VAGH: I don't know.
LANETH: How do you expect us to return home looking like this? We will be outcasts. There will be no place for us in the Empire.
K'VAGH: Your heart is still Klingon.
LANETH: Are you certain of that? During the battle with the Starfleet ship, I felt fear for the first time since I was a child. I wasn't alone. I could see it in the eyes of the others. We've become like them.
[...]
PHLOX: In the future, it may be possible to reverse the cosmetic effects.
ANTAAK: I suppose this is what I deserve. Millions of my people will have to live with this disfigurement. It'll be passed on to our children. Life won't be easy for us. [...] I'll need to find a new specialty. Perhaps cranial reconstruction...
"Battle At The Binary Stars" (DSC):
T'KUVMA: My house is open to all. Including those discarded by you, Kol. But my house is bonded by a single doctrine: Remain Klingon! [...] Our purity is a threat to them. They wish to drag us into the muck, where humans, Vulcans, Tellarites, and filthy Andorians mix...
To paraphrase L'Rell in "The Butcher's Knife Cares Not For The Lamb's Cry" (DSC) by directly quoting one of her people's favorite Earth playwrights, and one we would all do well to recall so clearly as Spock does, even on his worst day: "There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy..."
Sure it was, but so far as I recall, it wasn't until Beyond was being written that anyone except those "screaming about continuity violations" themselves were thinking of it in terms of being a full-on separate universe where anything and everything could potentially be different thanks to the effects of Nero and Spock Prime's incursion(s) rippling backward all the way to the Big Bang, or whatever. (Not that I find such an entirely illogical or inelegant suggestion, BTW. It makes sense enough to me, given that the outcomes of any number of additional time travel events, whether involving Our Heroes™ or otherwise, might turn out totally different in the KT and beget a massive cumulative butterfly effect. After all, Kirk Prime alone boasted the single fattest file on record with the Department of Temporal Investigations, per "Trials and Tribble-ations"! Of course, certain things could still be predestined, etc.)
What difference does that make? The point is, Klingons never had ears like that so far as we saw before. Just like they never had ridges until TMP. If, without immediate and/or explicit onscreen explanation, their appearance can be modified once in one way, and then again in another way, then the door is open for it to be modified any number of times in any number of ways. It doesn't make any sense to place some arbitrary limit on it, saying this far is far enough, that many times is too many...same with the Enterprise's refits, uniforms, etc. One good twist deserves another. The precedent is set. It's all in the game.
...which only reinforces with prior onscreen example the obvious: that bald Klingons and hirsute ones are not mutually exclusive of each other.
So what? In TOS and TAS, all the ones we saw were smooth-headed, and in most of the other series and films, we only saw ridged ones. That doesn't mean either didn't exist in those times, in-universe.
Also note that in Season One of DSC, their sarcophagi indeed depicted hair:
If, in DSC's conception of the universe, all Klingons everywhere have always been bald...why would this be?
Speaking of which, the concept of them practicing mummification is drawn from a rather obscure reference in TVH. Does it really seem reasonable to think they'd have picked up on that small a bit of minutiae but not on other, more significant ones, like the "Rightful Hair" story? Again, I don't buy it. They're going somewhere with this, and have been all along, even if they didn't know exactly where that might end up being at the time Fuller departed. I've been saying this for quite a while now, and I still don't think I'm wrong. (If I do turn out to be, so be it...but just remember, I get at least 26 years and two direct narrative deferrals to be vindicated!
)I can certainly understand not liking that aspect, but it honestly hasn't bothered me, from a real-world perspective—in fact, I feel more compelled by the performances of these Klingons than a great many previous ones. And from an in-universe perspective it has zero bearing on anything.
Or perhaps for a very specific reason: to create controversy and debate among the fanbase, thus "upping to eleven" the amount of time we spend talking about it as well! That a significant number of fans are always going to be bitching and moaning about stuff is well and truly baked into the equation. It's a frenzy they're feeding deliberately. And it's clearly working. Nerdrage is inevitable...might as well lean into it, harness it, make it work for you.
Yes, and I think it's quite possible they've learned their lesson from that, and have adjusted their mode of creative thinking to a model that counts upon that very reliable capacity as a renewable source of fuel for its engines.They vastly underestimated our ability to bitch and moan!
-MMoM
I don't recall people making this big of a fuss over the Klingons' change in appearance back in 1982, when "Star Trek II" hit the theaters.
What if this new Stewart show turns out to be crap or just boring? Then what? Or is everyone assuming that it will be spectacular?
What if this new Stewart show turns out to be crap or just boring? Then what? Or is everyone assuming that it will be spectacular?
Probably because there were no Klingons seen in "Star Trek II". OTOH, in 1979...
What if the new Picard project is set in the Mirror Universe?
(How much do we actually know about its format, anyway? Do we even know for sure it's going to be a series at all? I'm trying to avoid as much cast-and-plot-related spoilery as possible. I just know Stewart said he was going to be revisiting Picard.)
-MMoM
(How much do we actually know about its format, anyway? Do we even know for sure it's going to be a series at all? I'm trying to avoid as much cast-and-plot-related spoilery as possible. I just know Stewart said he was going to be revisiting Picard.)
-MMoM
Arm day will become very important to Sir Pat.What if the new Picard project is set in the Mirror Universe?
-MMoM
I'm not assuming anything, because I know nothing about it beyond Patrick Stewart is going to be in it. CBS, on the other hand, is banking on folks not finding it crap or boring. They are banking on it keeping people around and subscribing for more of the year.
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