Michael Burnham and Pon Farr...

[Spot261]

The times he treated him had nothing to do with his eyes up to that point. McCoy was learning on the fly.

Very much my point, if he were an expert, if he could justify being Spocks regular physician (as opposed to finding himself muddling through ad hoc) he shouldn't have to learn on the fly, he would already have done his homework and known this stuff ahead of time.

After all it's not as though he didn't know he would be responsible for a Vulcan, he was assigned to a ship which had one as the first officer, he was responsible not only for treating him but also whatever regular healthchecks he would undergo.

 

[Marynator]

Dr McCoy also had like a running history on Star Trek of having very anti-Vulcan feelings, and he constantly derided them all the time, and he picked on Spock for how he viewed emotions and everything, so I wouldn't take his comment as being entirely literal, right? I mean, I think it really fits well into his regular snips at his friend and his people.

Even if you're believing Pon Farr is an emotional thing and not biological, Michael isn't even fully culturally Vulcan, she totally expresses her emotions and she doesn't suppress what she's feeling, so if she did go through Pon Farr, I feel it'd have to be completely a conscious choice to just go through the motions for traditional and ceremonial sake, and I don't feel at all that's like she's actually really going through it, because her experience wouldn't be the same as a Vulcan who might die if he or she doesn't do it, right?

 

[Jinn]

I just think it would have an effect on their culture, art, politics and society in ways that we haven't seen due to not being on Vulcan all that much considering. She might not pick up on the exact Pon Farr thing bt there would be other factors that would influence here due to her young age on the planet. (Again don't know what age she went to Vulcan so just guessing). Heck could we not argue that her awkward nature around boys she fancies is one aspect of this?

Well, yeah, Pon Farr is an important thing in Vulcan society and surely part of their sex negative culture and stuff like that and since Vulcan culture majorly impacted young Michael I can see how Pon Farr would affect her growing up in some way, but it sure as hell doesn't mean that she only has sex every seven years or affected her sex drive directly.

All you say is "Look at the cuuuute kitten!"

Not true! *confers with lawyer* Guilty as charged.

In the case of a fair and balanced discussion I should point out however that McCoy is also, by his own admission, not a psychiatrist so

What even is McCoy? Not an escalator, a mechanic, a coal miner. Maybe he's a decorator, a bartender of a battery. He never specified those.

Unless they isolated her, she would be around people going through Pon Farr quite a bit, probably.

I dunno, Vulcans don't seem like people who will run around a lot when affected by Pon Farr, they either have sex or meditate a lot, neither involves Michael. Plus, I have a hard time her interacting with a lot of Vulcans, other than maybe teachers. At least the ones we see in Discovery don't seem to think much of her. (other than Sarek).

 

[BillJ]

Very much my point, if he were an expert, if he could justify being Spocks regular physician (as opposed to finding himself muddling through ad hoc) he shouldn't have to learn on the fly, he would already have done his homework and known this stuff ahead of time.

After all it's not as though he didn't know he would be responsible for a Vulcan, he was assigned to a ship which had one as the first officer, he was responsible not only for treating him but also whatever regular healthchecks he would undergo.

McCoy was lazy.

 

[Spot261]

Says him, he says it a lot, I'm surprised you didn't know. He's not a bricklayer, moon shuttle conductor, Coal Miner or magician. All you say is "Look at the cuuuute kitten!"

I think you'd be surprised what @Jinn knows....

 

[Kibbin]

I think you'd be surprised what @Jinn knows....

I think I don't want to know what Jinn knows in case it comes up in a court of law.

 

[BillJ]

I dunno, Vulcans don't seem like people who will run around a lot when affected by Pon Farr, they either have sex or meditate a lot, neither involves Michael. Plus, I have a hard time her interacting with a lot of Vulcans, other than maybe teachers. At least the ones we see in Discovery don't seem to think much of her. (other than Sarek).

I doubt Pon Farr has an on/off switch. It probably has effects both before and after the actual act.

 

[Kemaiku]

Very much my point, if he were an expert, if he could justify being Spocks regular physician (as opposed to finding himself muddling through ad hoc) he shouldn't have to learn on the fly, he would already have done his homework and known this stuff ahead of time.

After all it's not as though he didn't know he would be responsible for a Vulcan, he was assigned to a ship which had one as the first officer, he was responsible not only for treating him but also whatever regular healthchecks he would undergo.

Yes but, Leonard McCoy was an extremely bigoted, stubborn, antiquated, hurtfully unpleasant man acting as doctor, who people today would not tolerate treating them. It's a serious mystery how someone who threw around slurs and mocked aliens to their faces for no reason would be allowed on a starship filled with aliens.

Unless he was acting as a lesson for the 1960's, with white doctors being bigoted against PoC they had to treat. But that was never the case. For McCoy I mean, his hate was just his own.

 

[Kibbin]

Well, yeah, Pon Farr is an important thing in Vulcan society and surely part of their sex negative culture and stuff like that and since Vulcan culture majorly impacted young Michael I can see how Pon Farr would affect her growing up in some way, but it sure as hell doesn't mean that she only has sex every seven years or affected her sex drive directly.

I dunno, Vulcans don't seem like people who will run around a lot when affected by Pon Farr, they either have sex or meditate a lot, neither involves Michael.

I think this may be part of the problem. They don't seem very open about it and thus it won't be addressed or discussed except by Amanda possibly. Those feelings would be even more frowned upon by Vulcans than happiness or depression and thus she wouldn't be able to learn and understand them. As a child going through puberty would she not take that as the norm. Sarak and Amanda rub fingers every once in a while and then bam every seven years her and spock are sent off to spend the weekend with some distant aunt and come back to find the place wrecked, Amanda grinning like a loon and Sarak smoking a cigarette.

 

[Lord Garth]

I doubt Pon Farr has an on/off switch. It probably has effects both before and after the actual act.

Sarek probably went off somewhere. Somewhere with Amanda. Michael was left with a babysitter.

I'm not saying they didn't explain anything to Michael, but, there we are. And there is a meditation technique. Tuvok tried it in some seventh season VOY episode. Title to be edited in once I look it up. I can't remember it off-hand.

EDIT: "Body and Soul". It's the one where The Doctor has to hide himself in Seven of Nine's body.

 

[Kibbin]

Yes but, Leonard McCoy was an extremely bigoted, stubborn, antiquated, hurtfully unpleasant man acting as doctor, who people today would not tolerate treating them. It's a serious mystery how someone who threw around slurs and mocked aliens to their faces for no reason would be allowed on a starship filled with aliens.

Unless he was acting as a lesson for the 1960's, with white doctors being bigoted against PoC they had to treat. But that was never the case. For McCoy I mean, his hate was just his own.

I always took it as banter as a child. He did like Spock but he wasn't one for opening up and hugging, especially to someone who wouldn't do it back. He was a slightly repressed southern man dealing with someone less in touch with their feelings than he was.

 

[Kemaiku]

I always took it as banter
.

Nothing he said was "banter". FIY, that word has become a problem in the UK for people dismissing any horrible thing they say by just throwing out "jus banta" afterwards.

"Green blooded son of a bitch", "ice water in your veins".

McCoy was a relic, and given that other MO's of the era come nowhere near his level of slurs, he is unique in his xenophobia, he didn't belong on a starship.

 

[Jinn]

I think you'd be surprised what @Jinn knows....

I think I don't want to know what Jinn knows in case it comes up in a court of law.

It's better that way, I might need witnesses.

I doubt Pon Farr has an on/off switch. It probably has effects both before and after the actual act.

Well, I assumed that they would start meditating as soon as it majorly impacts them. Vulcans are pretty big on privacy, I don't think they'd let other people around notice that they're experiencing Pon Farr.

I think this may be part of the problem. They don't seem very open about it and thus it won't be addressed or discussed except by Amanda possibly. Those feelings would be even more frowned upon by Vulcans than happiness or depression and thus she wouldn't be able to learn and understand them. As a child going through puberty would she not take that as the norm. Sarak and Amanda rub fingers every once in a while and then bam every seven years her and spock are sent off to spend the weekend with some distant aunt and come back to find the place wrecked, Amanda grinning like a loon and Sarak smoking a cigarette.

I'm pretty sure that Michael's sex ed teacher explained to her how human sexuality and Pon Farr and stuff differs. She might take it as the norm in a purely "knowledge" type of way but that wouldn't really affect her in a behavioural way.

 

[Kibbin]

Nothing he said was "banter". FIY, that word has become a problem in the UK for people dismissing any horrible thing they say by just throwing out "jus banta" afterwards.

"Green blooded son of a bitch", "ice water in your veins".

McCoy was a relic, and given that other MO's of the era come nowhere near his level of slurs, he is unique in his xenophobia, he didn't belong on a starship.

The problem with that view point is it spirals outward. If he was truly as bad as we assume then why did Kirk keep him? Was he okay with it? What about the rest of the crew? Would they not report it if they were Spock's friends?
If you go off the assumption that it was banter you don't end up thinking that the entire crew of the Ent were enablers or racists who kept Spock as their carnival side show.

 

[Lord Garth]

The 23rd Century is imperfect, just like the 21st. Sometimes the Manager (Kirk) doesn't do anything but the employees (the crew) don't take it any further and the person who's targeted (Spock) should but doesn't. And Bones is Kirk's friend. He wouldn't come down on him like he'd come down on Stiles in "Balance of Terror", who he wasn't as chummy with and who was more hostile.

Not a savory picture but that's the way it looks to me. The Federation's ideals are what they want to be, not how they're actually depicted.

 

[Kibbin]

I'm pretty sure that Michael's sex ed teacher explained to her how human sexuality and Pon Farr and stuff differs. She might take it as the norm in a purely "knowledge" type of way but that wouldn't really affect her in a behavioural way.

I think this is my problem. If she had a Vulcan sex ed teacher I assume he would just go through the literal biological stuff. This bit goes in here, here and here and so on. The impression I got was that Pon Farr was more from the spiritual side and they a)wouldn't tell her because she wasn't a Vulcan and it didn't concern her. As far a they would be concerned it wouldn't happen to her so she doesn't need to know. This would impact her growth and a talk about birds and bees from Amanda wouldn't impact that much. She wouldn't see people holding hands down the street, it wouldn't come up in movies or plays really so it's kind of a void for her. Now maybe she went to a mixed species school so this is all a moo point and some of the societal impact would be lessened but who knows.

 

[Kemaiku]

The problem with that view point is it spirals outward. If he was truly as bad as we assume then why did Kirk keep him? Was he okay with it? What about the rest of the crew? Would they not report it if they were Spock's friends?
If you go off the assumption that it was banter you don't end up thinking that the entire crew of the Ent were enablers or racists who kept Spock as their carnival side show.

Yes?

I didn't realise being posted on the Enterprise meant becoming perfect in some way. The rest of the crew displayed some breath taking racism for a species that saved them from post atomic horror and spent 90 years elevating their savagery to something that could be acceptable to the intergalactic community.

 

[Mudd]

Yes but, Leonard McCoy was an extremely bigoted, stubborn, antiquated, hurtfully unpleasant man acting as doctor, who people today would not tolerate treating them. It's a serious mystery how someone who threw around slurs and mocked aliens to their faces for no reason would be allowed on a starship filled with aliens.

Unless he was acting as a lesson for the 1960's, with white doctors being bigoted against PoC they had to treat. But that was never the case. For McCoy I mean, his hate was just his own.

The context of the character has simply changed. He was certainly stubborn.

McCoy remains one of my favorite Trek characters - in fact, the only ship's doctor in the Franchise that I really like as a character - and one of the few of these folks I can imagine having a human conversation with over coffee.

 

[Kibbin]

Yes?

I didn't realise being posted on the Enterprise meant becoming perfect in some way. The rest of the crew displayed some breath taking racism for a species that saved them from post atomic horror and spent 90 years elevating their savagery to something that could be acceptable to the intergalactic community.

I never said they were perfect, I just would rather assume there was more outside the episodes that explained some deeply troubling behaviour rather than writing the crew off as racists. I'd rather assume this was a well known thing between McCoy and Spock with Spock not firing as many back on screen but maybe more so off screen. Thus allowing me to presume that these are decent people I'm watching and the future is a truly bright and noble place.

 

[Kemaiku]

McCoy remains one of my favorite Trek characters.

Given that you pardon the behaviour of people who salivate over the idea of a world turning more towards one that would kill me gladly, I hardly give the slightest fuck what monster you support next.