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Michael Burnham and Pon Farr...

They had 400 Vulcans on the Intrepid, I never bought the idea that Starfleet knew nothing about them. At the same time, McCoy had to have access to information from somewhere in order to compare Spock's examinination to and make a prognosis.
^^^
Yep, and their is dialogue in TOS - "Amok Time" to support your assertion that it wasn't some "I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you" type secret:

KIRK: Stay. McCoy has given me his medical evaluation of your condition. He says you're going to die unless something is done. What? Is it something only your planet can do for you? Spock! You've been called the best first officer in the fleet. That's an enormous asset to me. If I have to lose that first officer, I want to know why.

SPOCK: It is a thing no out-worlder may know except those very few who have been involved. A Vulcan understands, but even we do not speak of it among ourselves. It is a deeply personal thing. Can you see that, Captain, and understand?

So, yes, I'm sure some in Star Fleet (and civilian life) DID KNOW all about the particulars of Pon-Farr; but for the majority, common knowledge was: Vulcans mate once every 7 years and unless you were around a Vulcan at that time, or somehow involved in helping them get through it - many probably assumed such mating was done 'logically' and no Vulcan went out of their way to dissuade others of that notion.
 
Let's not make McCoy into some kind of a bigoted bastard, because he wasn't. Maybe sometimes the humor, as scripted, wasn't spot-on, but his whole character needs to be considered without pulling bits and pieces out of context.
As many have said - Yes, McCoy was with regard to Vulcans. He was quite bigoted in many things regarding Vulcans. Doesn't make him an overall evil, or truly terrible person; but he had his prejudices.
 
Maybe it's because we didn't see that many Vulcans on the show but it always felt to me like he argued with Spock not Vulcans and he did so in the same way that say a Liberal might argue with their conservative friend. He didn't seem to have any problems with Amanda who married a Vulcan and he only seemed to brush against Sarek when his stubborn behaviour jeopardised his life.
Let's also not forget that for an unemotional person Spock would often fire jabs back at him.
: Spock, I don't know too much about these little tribbles yet, but there is one thing that I have discovered.

Spock: What is that, Doctor?

Dr. McCoy: I like them... better than I like you.

Spock: Doctor?

Dr. McCoy: Yes?

Spock: They do indeed have one redeeming characteristic.

Dr. McCoy: What's that?

Spock: They do not talk too much.

If we take the episodes as a snap shot of life on the Enterprise and the two really did dislike each other I feel like it would have spilled over into something much more. I also feel that Kirk is the kind of man who would have stepped in had there been any real beef between the two and demoted and or transferred accordingly.
 
This is from The Star Trek Writers / Directors Guide, third revision, April 17, 1967:

"12. DR. LEONARD "BONES" MCCOY Played by Deforest Kelley, Dr. McCoy is Senior Ship's Surgeon of the U.S.S. Enterprise, head of the Medical Department. As such he has medical responsibilities for the health and physical welfare of the crew of the Enterprise and broad medical science responsibilities in areas of space exploration. As Senior Ship's Surgeon, "Bones" McCoy is the one man who can approach Captain Kirk on the most intimate personal levels relating to the Captain's physical, mental and emotional well being. Indeed, he has the absolute duty to constantly keen abreast of the Captain's condition and speak out openly to Kirk on this matter. McCoy is portrayed as something of a future-day H. L. Mencken, a very, very outspoken character, with more than a little cynical bite in his attitudes and observations on life. He has an acid wit which results in sometimes shocking statements -- statements which, under close scrutiny, carry more than a grain of truth about medicine, man and society. Of all the men aboard our starship, McCoy is the least military. He is filled with idiosyncracies which fit the character and are his trademark. For example, he loathes the Transporter System of "beaming" personnel from the ship to planet surfaces and loudly proclaims that he does not care to have his molecules scrambled and beamed around as if he were a radio message. McCoy is highly practical in the old "general practitioner" sense, rates pills except when they are vitally needed, is not above believing that a little suffering is good for the soul and the maturity of the individual. He has a great fear that perfect medicine, psychotherapy and computers may rob mankind of his individuality and his divine right to wrestle a bit with life. He's a superb physician and surgeon – often seems to be treating the wrong ailment -- but usually is proven right in the end. Dr. McCoy is 45 years of age, was married once ... something of a mystery that ended unhappily in a divorce. He has a daughter, "Joanna", who is 20 and in training as a nurse somewhere. McCoy has provided for her, hears from her as often as inter-galactic mail permits, but his duty aboard the starship keeps them apart. We will suspect that it was the bitterness of this marriage and divorce which turned McCoy to the Space Service. He was born in Georgia in the United States and can be something of the gallant Southern Gentle-an in social life, particularly with females. When the moment is right, a trace of his Southern accent will be heard. There is something of a "feud" between Dr. "Bones" McCoy and Mister Spock. The Doctor, like most cynics, is at heart a bleeding humanist. Spock appears to regard McCoy as an archaic, bumbling country doctor, usually achieving cures through luck. On the other hand, McCoy likes to regard Spock as little more than a sometimes useful piece of computer equipment. But, while disagreeing constantly, they do work well together when it becomes necessary and we're never but that there could be some affection hidden behind their constant battles."

That bit about "something" of a future-day H. L. Mencken....that word does seem like a cop-out on pinning down what, exactly, the character is intended to encompass. The vagueness of it would leave open the opportunity for Roddenberry and others to work things of their own into McCoy's character and make him a mouthpiece.

I will step out of this debate, because right now this is not sitting very well.

Thanks to all who have offered their observations. They are well taken.
 
Do we have any idea if it was ever the original intent that Vulcans have sex only once every seven years? It would seem odd for T'Pring to be so on about Stonn if there wasn't a sexual component to it.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong.
Keep in mind what T'Pring said: Spock had become "much known among our people - almost a legend. I came to know that I did not want to be the consort of a legend."

I take that to mean that T'Pring didn't want to be married to a celebrity who wouldn't actually be part of her day-to-day life (being away on the ship for months at a time, or even years), and in the meantime she would be judged on her ability to conform to Sarek's high expectations (and don't say Vulcans don't judge others; we know full well they do).

While it would be a breach of the customs against showing emotion for T'Pring to admit that she didn't want to live a life of being alone while her celebrity husband was off gallivanting around the galaxy, I think that's part of why she chose the challenge. I think it's too simplistic to assume she only meant sex when she said, "Stonn wanted me and I wanted him." She probably meant also that they had more in common (interests, attitudes) than she had with Spock.

All this said, don't assume I like T'Pring. She's awful. But it's very likely that she had more on her mind when she challenged than just wanting Stonn as a sex partner.

Well, I assumed that they would start meditating as soon as it majorly impacts them. Vulcans are pretty big on privacy, I don't think they'd let other people around notice that they're experiencing Pon Farr.
Warning to all fanfic-haters: I'm about to mention fanfic.

There's a series that's primarily about Sarek and Amanda's marriage, from the time they met until some point during Kirk's 5-year mission. Part of the series explores how Vulcan society deals with pon farr when it's something so private that nobody ever talks about it.

The author postulates that the whole process takes place over several days to maybe a week or two (varies among the couples, as people aren't all the same of course). The way it's handled is simple: The two people involved inform whoever their superiors are at work that they will be taking a break/unavailable. That's all they need to say; the rest is understood, and the time off is granted without question.

There's a scene in which Sarek is in the early stages and is meditating, Amanda has already taken care of the "need time off" business, and she's preparing for what's to come by making sure there's lots of food, water, and whatever medical supplies they might need (a practical necessity), as neither will be in any condition to leave to take care of such matters until it's all over.

While some people might think this is a silly way to depict pon farr, it seems to me that it's... logical. Sarek won't be in any condition to think at all, let alone logically, so Amanda (or any female half of the couple) has to do it for him (and make sure she herself isn't hurt since Vulcans are much stronger than humans). At the time of this specific story where this is described, Spock is away at Starfleet Academy, so there's no worries about needing a babysitter. But it's mentioned in the story that when Spock was younger, he was sent to stay with his grandmother for a couple of weeks, or when older, he would just board at the Vulcan Science Academy.

I'm pretty sure that Michael's sex ed teacher explained to her how human sexuality and Pon Farr and stuff differs. She might take it as the norm in a purely "knowledge" type of way but that wouldn't really affect her in a behavioural way.
I don't see how Michael would be affected in any way at all, unless she were telepathically bonded to a Vulcan.

The Federation's ideals are what they want to be, not how they're actually depicted.
This is an apt observation, applicable to any of the centuries we've seen depicted in various series and movies.

Picard and Riker never learned this basic fact, and that's why they're so judgmental and clueless. Janeway, too, to some extent.
 
Given that you pardon the behaviour of people who salivate over the idea of a world turning more towards one that would kill me gladly, I hardly give the slightest fuck what monster you support next.

You want to post this in TNZ and delete it here.
 
Okay so I had a terrifying throught. What if Michael finds Spock and he's in Pon Farr from the red dots and Iconian angels or whatever, and they have to go all Game of Thrones to save him?

And then the next season can be about Michael being pregnant on Discovery.

And then the next season can be about Michael and Spock's not-quite-incest baby.

I'm terrified they're reading this and I'm giving them ideas. :ack:
 
Okay so I had a terrifying throught. What if Michael finds Spock and he's in Pon Farr from the red dots and Iconian angels or whatever, and they have to go all Game of Thrones to save him?

And then the next season can be about Michael being pregnant on Discovery.

And then the next season can be about Michael and Spock's not-quite-incest baby.

I'm terrified they're reading this and I'm giving them ideas. :ack:

I thought it was pretty clear that "Amok Time" was Spock's first Pon Farr. He said he had hoped he would be spared the effects by reason of his half-human physiology. If he had previously experienced Pon Farr, then that would be a moot point.... unless there's some throwaway line about how it only happened because of the red dots, and he thinks it won't happen to him in the natural course of his life. *groan*

Should not happen to her. No Vulcsn physiology, no meld to a future mate, and no real emotional control by Vulcan standards.

Ah, but as we've seen, Michael does have some kind of quasi-mystical portion of Vulcan mental essence permanently stuck in her brain from an intense mind meld when Sarek rescued her. It's likely that having a piece of Vulcan consciousness embedded in her head has affected her own mental development over the years.

So perhaps she did end up with this seven-year cycle, and tied to the exact same schedule as Sarek's, to boot! :eek:

Kor
 
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Okay so I had a terrifying throught. What if Michael finds Spock and he's in Pon Farr from the red dots and Iconian angels or whatever, and they have to go all Game of Thrones to save him?

And then the next season can be about Michael being pregnant on Discovery.

And then the next season can be about Michael and Spock's not-quite-incest baby.

I'm terrified they're reading this and I'm giving them ideas. :ack:
Put down the pipe, STOP smoking whatever's in it - and go sleep it off.
(My brain needs BLEACH now, thanks.:barf:;))
 
I thought it was pretty clear that "Amok Time" was Spock's first Pon Farr.

I thought it was pretty clear in "Balance of Terror" that nobody had ever encountered an invisible spaceship before either, but that didn't stop DSC. (Or ENT for that matter.) If they want to do Pon Farr, they will, then they'll tell us it's Prime, and then people will continue to argue about it here.
 
They're aliens.

I always hated the idea that they just had sex normally like humans. That kinda defeats the whole point of pon farr. And yes, having sex only once in seven years seems crazy to us sex crazed humans. That's good.

Biologically speaking, it makes absolutely no sense. Even when you take into account the longer Vulcan lifespan, any species able to reproduce only once every seven years would have a very low birth rate (unless it had litters) and quickly go extinct.

Of course, something making no evolutionary sense at all isn't new for Trek sadly. Sadly TOS is arguably the most accurate any of the Trek series have gotten regarding the biological sciences, after which it's all been downhill.
 
I thought it was pretty clear that "Amok Time" was Spock's first Pon Farr. He said he had hoped he would be spared the effects by reason of his half-human physiology. If he had previously experienced Pon Farr, then that would be a moot point.... unless there's some throwaway line about how it only happened because of the red dots, and he thinks it won't happen to him in the natural course of his life. *groan*

Which makes it all the more likely that Vulcans have sex independent of Pon Farr. You think Spock was a virgin in TOS?
 
Biologically speaking, it makes absolutely no sense. Even when you take into account the longer Vulcan lifespan, any species able to reproduce only once every seven years would have a very low birth rate (unless it had litters) and quickly go extinct.

I already explained why this is not the case. Besides, even if it would not make sense, it doesn't mean it cannot be so in Star Trek! Remember the Ocampa?

Their lifespan seems to be over two centuries and who knows how long they remain fertile, possibly over a century. Probably such system would require that intercourse is very likely to result a pregnancy and that infant mortality is low (and Vulcans seem to be many ways much more resilient than humans, so that may be part of that.) In developed counties replacement rate (for population to remain stable) is average 2.1 children per woman. More than that results population growth. I really don't think this would be an issue.
 
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