Chancellor L’Rell and Klingon culture moves backwards in a century

[Hythlodeus]

The more common phrase these days is "Anglophone," basically referring to those countries where English is the primary or official language, whether due to internal history or to colonial influence. If one were to speak strictly, England itself would arguably be the only "Anglo-Saxon" country.

there is a difference between the phrases Anglophone and Anglo-Saxon as the latter is used to describe countries that use the Westminster system in European political science and the unique economic system in, well, economics

Also: No, I'm not German.

 

[Marynator]

I don't mind at all really how Discovery started, I don't feel every show really needs to be copying each others' format and style or something, right? Like I can totally get into some big story like a war with the Klingon Empire right away, but I'm really so very happy how that was completed at least, what I wouldn't have liked would be if the whole show's going to be about that. Sometimes it's very fun to start off with a big bang and then you can move on to other things, like it looks like Discovery's going to do, I mean if you're going to do a serialized story like this, why not have some big thing going on right away to really draw people in, then you resolve that and tell other stories? I'm just really glad it wasn't something with time travel or something like that, I'm really so very thankful this whole story was totally organic and not outside influenced like Enterprise or 2009 Star Trek, you know?

 

[lawman]

there is a difference between the phrases Anglophone and Anglo-Saxon as the latter is used to describe countries that use the Westminster system in European political science and the unique economic system in, well, economics

That's interesting. Poli sci is one of my fields (although comparative governance isn't my subspecialty; I'm an Americanist), but I've not run across the term used that way.

Also curious: what's "unique" about the economic system?

Also: No, I'm not German.

But you're going to leave me guessing? It's not on your profile...

 

[Hythlodeus]

That's interesting. Poli sci is one of my fields (although comparative governance isn't my subspecialty; I'm an Americanist), but I've not run across the term used that way.

Also curious: what's "unique" about the economic system?


But you're going to leave me guessing? It's not on your profile...

Economics is not really my field, I'm Poli scientist myself, so let me quote Wikipedia:

The Anglo-Saxon model or Anglo-Saxon capitalism (so called because it is practiced in English-speaking countries such as the United Kingdom, the United States, Canada, New Zealand, Australia[1] and Ireland[2]) is a capitalist model that emerged in the 1970s, based on the Chicago school of economics. However, its origins date to the 18th century in the United Kingdom under the ideas of the classical economist Adam Smith.

Characteristics of this model include low levels of regulation and taxes, and the public sector providing very few services. It can also mean strong private property rights, contract enforcement, and overall ease of doing business as well as low barriers to free trade

I've also seen it to describe the strongly jury dependent judicary model in law school

 

[lawman]

Huh. That's basically just what I think of as "capitalism."

Apparently it's a disputed term: from farther down the same entry, "Proponents of the term 'Anglo-Saxon economy' argue that the economies of these countries currently are so closely related in their liberalist and free market orientation that they can be regarded as sharing a specific macroeconomic model. However, those who disagree with the use of the term claim that the economies of these countries differ as much from each other as they do from the 'welfare capitalist' economies of northern and continental Europe."

I'd be the first to agree that the Scandinavian countries provide a better quality of life overall. But in my circle we usually draw the distinction by calling them "social democracies"...

I've also seen it to describe the strongly jury dependent judicary model in law school

Speaking as a lawyer, I never ran across the term there, either. But then I studied in the United States, of course. We refer to ourselves as belonging to the "Anglo-American" legal tradition, and countries that don't fit it (those without a history of court-driven common law) are a curiosity that merits a passing mention and not much more.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Of course, TNG offers two contradictory datapoints here. In "Reunion", Gowron tries to bribe K'Ehleyr, mentioning command of a starship and seat on the Council before openly stating that many positions are open to her. But in "Redemption", he dismisses the idea that the Durases would be aiming at Council leadership by stating that women may not serve in the council.

So perhaps the Leader/Chancellor (assuming they are one and the same position, which seems more or less implied, but I suppose there's probably room for the matter to be more convoluted than that) is empowered with discretion as to the makeup of the Council, and women were allowed all the way up until Gowron himself decided to prohibit them as way of heading off the maneuverings of Lursa and B'Etor, then?

Also worthy of note in this thread may be Jadzia's little editorial addition to Martok's house saga in "You Are Cordially Invited" (DS9)...

DAX: ...but the Second Dynasty ended when General K'Trelan assassinated Emperor Reclaw. For the next ten years, the Empire was ruled by a Council elected by the people. Modern-day Klingon historians refer to this as "The Dark Time," but it's interesting to note that this first and only experiment in Klingon democracy actually produced several reforms...

Whether or not it may have any bearing on the particular issue of women serving, it at least demonstrates that periods of progress followed by regression are scarcely unheard of in Klingon history.

-MMoM

 

[Timo]

So perhaps the Leader/Chancellor (assuming they are one and the same position, which seems more or less implied, but I suppose there's probably room for the matter to be more convoluted than that) is empowered with discretion as to the makeup of the Council, and women were allowed all the way up until Gowron himself decided to prohibit them as way of heading off the maneuverings of Lursa and B'Etor, then?

Possibly but not necessarily. After all, we never ever heard of a female High Council Member in any era. Only the leadership ever befell on female hands.

Again, a classic King's Council probably never would feature any female members even when the power moved to a Queen...

DAX: ...but the Second Dynasty ended when General K'Trelan assassinated Emperor Reclaw. For the next ten years, the Empire was ruled by a Council elected by the people. Modern-day Klingon historians refer to this as "The Dark Time," but it's interesting to note that this first and only experiment in Klingon democracy actually produced several reforms...

Whether or not it may have any bearing on the particular issue of women serving, it at least demonstrates that periods of progress followed by regression are scarcely unheard of in Klingon history.

Indeed. Also noteworthy is that the modern Council involves no popular vote - so what is the selection process like? If the institution itself formally nominates the Council Members, then it would be a bit circular for the Council Members to elect the head of the institution. But heads of Great Houses being granted automatic seats sounds natural enough, and these folks would almost certainly demand the right to nominate their formal leader from their own ranks.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Longinus]

Indeed. Also noteworthy is that the modern Council involves no popular vote - so what is the selection process like? If the institution itself formally nominates the Council Members, then it would be a bit circular for the Council Members to elect the head of the institution. But heads of Great Houses being granted automatic seats sounds natural enough, and these folks would almost certainly demand the right to nominate their formal leader from their own ranks.

Yeah, I think it is pretty clear that the High Council is composed of the leaders of the great houses.

Oh, and Dennas was apparently the representative of house D'Ghor in the High Council, so that is at least one female high councillor.

 

[Groppler Zorn]

Yeah, I think it is pretty clear that the High Council is composed of the leaders of the great houses.

Oh, and Dennas was apparently the representative of house D'Ghor in the High Council, so that is at least one female high councillor.

Wasn’t Grilka the head of her house? She wasn’t on the high council though. I don’t we’ve seen any evidence that being head of a house automatically grants you a seat on the council.

Edit: was that actually the high council we saw? I thought it was just the leaders of the houses.

 

[Tuskin38]

The High Council was made up of the heads of the 24 great houses.

T'Kuvma wasn't talking to 24 people, but still.

 

[ITDUDE]

They can wear wtf this thing is, but they can't have hair?

 

[BillJ]

They can wear wtf this thing is, but they can't have hair?

Hair wasn't in the budget. Maybe for season two?

 

[fireproof78]

Yeah, I think it is pretty clear that the High Council is composed of the leaders of the great houses.

Oh, and Dennas was apparently the representative of house D'Ghor in the High Council, so that is at least one female high councillor.

Need more like Dennas.

 

[Timo]

Wasn’t Grilka the head of her house? She wasn’t on the high council though. I don’t we’ve seen any evidence that being head of a house automatically grants you a seat on the council.

It may be a Good House, but apparently it isn't a Great House.

Really, just 24 Houses in grand total would be odd indeed, when two-bit setups like Grilka's or Martok's also exist. But we know these things occur in degrees: there can be a House that isn't Noble (as Martok wasn't), and supposedly also a House that is Noble but not Great. And not all of the Great Houses need be particularly big or powerful at any given date, but all of them no doubt are Noble.

Edit: was that actually the high council we saw? I thought it was just the leaders of the houses.

Depends a bit on whether there's a difference... But I would assume the Great House Leaders couldn't normally be bothered to attend most meetings physically, what with spending time at their interstellar holdings and enterprises. And when L'Rell solidified her power, only physically attending people were seen, not holographic ones. Unless Klingons, like Starfleet, have utterly lifelike holograms in civilized locations and across short distances, but the quality goes down with distance and the ruggedness of the environs.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Grendelsbayne]

My understanding is that there are lots of Klingon houses, but only a few of them are great enough to be represented on the High Council. And which houses those are is clearly very mercurial and pretty much dependent on whichever way the winds are blowing. How exactly it's determined that a house may stand on the High Council is hard to say, though we know for a fact that one can be removed if the Council/Chancellor judge it as having been gravely dishonored. My guess is there is a certain number of spots available (which could also be different in different eras) and any time a spot opens up, any house that wants in stakes a claim and (if the existing council members accept their right to stake the claim in the first place) defends it in some sort of ritual combat. That seems to generally be the preferred Klingon way to decide things.

 

[Ithekro]

I would think the reforms would lead to the culture we see in TOS, and the culture the Klingon Empire has up to TUC, with of course some political changes along the way. The TNG Klingons having regressed, perhaps due to the ecological and political disaster of Praxis and the Khitomer Accords with the Federation and their falling out with Romulas as an ally. They became more honor-fundamentalists.

 

[Timo]

Falling back on a rigid honor code for the military is basically a must for a civilization that no longer does war but has to deal with its existing warriors somehow. And the TNG Klingons would presumably be in a rut for having to appease their UFP masters/trade partners/Qo'noS disaster zone cleaners, so the leadership (K'Mpec!) would wish to keep the restless warriors on a leash. And having the warriors hold the other end of that leash, too, out of this (mis)guided sense of honor, would be the path of least effort... Basically, it's akin to old Japan dealing with its samurai infestation until the warriors could be done away with for good.

A more victorious and expansionist empire would be less hung up on honor rules, hence TOS. But apparently just before TOS, things weren't looking all that good for the Klingon Empire, and there was a shortage of war, presumably at least since the days of T'Kumva's dad. And possibly going all the way back to the ENT days, since those Klingons were very TNG-like as well, with their restless honor extremists. But perhaps things were not quite as badly off as in TNG, where everything ultimately was Kahless this, Kahless that.

In this model, we ought to see the Klingon Empire rise under the guidance of L'Rell, or perhaps despite the guidance of L'Rell. But rise without waging war against the UFP. Possibly L'Rell or her successor has the wits to create a Cold War way to compete, a way possibly alien to the Klingons but nevertheless good for channeling the warrior urges and winning new resources and opportunities for the Empire.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kennelly]

Regarding Klingon culture changing back and forth, there's also the stuff from the ENT episode where Archer is on trial by the Klingons.

His lawyer tells him than in his youth other professions were very respected and there was actual rule of law and honor, but then the "warrior caste" took over, the Empire got more aggressive and the legal system degraded.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Also worthy of note in this thread may be Jadzia's little editorial addition to Martok's house saga in "You Are Cordially Invited" (DS9)...

DAX: ...but the Second Dynasty ended when General K'Trelan assassinated Emperor Reclaw. For the next ten years, the Empire was ruled by a Council elected by the people. Modern-day Klingon historians refer to this as "The Dark Time," but it's interesting to note that this first and only experiment in Klingon democracy actually produced several reforms...

Whether or not it may have any bearing on the particular issue of women serving, it at least demonstrates that periods of progress followed by regression are scarcely unheard of in Klingon history.

Returning to this, I meant to add that the above also further reinforces that Klingon notions of what constitutes progression versus what constitutes regression can indeed run very counter to our own. As does the example from "Judgment" (ENT) that @Kennelly cites.

Possibly but not necessarily. After all, we never ever heard of a female High Council Member in any era. Only the leadership ever befell on female hands.

I guess I'm not seeing how you would account for Gowron dismissing Picard's question in "Redemption" (TNG) of whether Lursa and B'Etor would claim the leadership by saying women could not serve on the Council, then?

And I can't say I read Gowron as insincere when he tries to bribe K'Ehleyr with the prospect of a seat on the Council in "Reunion" (TNG), personally...but of course there is nevertheless still ambiguity as to whether they currently can or can't at that point, because she replies that such opportunities would present themselves only if he came to power. So that reference is indeed a bit of a wash as far as pinning anything down, as you say.

But for all we know, Gowron may well have changed a lot of things in service of his own interests, over time. He could even have revived the title/position of Chancellor after it had been supplanted by that of Council Leader earlier in the century, too, whatever the difference might or might not be. Perhaps he desired some additional consolidation of powers, or simply a little extra prestige, once there was an Emperor again to compete with as a figurehead following "Rightful Heir" (TNG)?

As for Dennas...Burnham said in a flashback to the time of her Vulcan education in "The Vulcan Hello" (DSC) that the Klingon "political order" then consisted of 24 Great Houses, and reiterated in the present day of "Battle At The Binary Stars" (DSC) that 24 Great Houses made up the Council. However, it wasn't really made entirely clear if those would necessarily be the same 24 between both references, or if that number is in some way prescribed and various Houses are ever-squabbling in competition to be among its ranks, nor whether the Council Members would by default be the House Leaders, or if they delegate representatives that may or may not be themselves, or what. (In the 24th century, they aren't always House Leaders.) Kol implies seats must be "earned" by saying T'Kuvma has failed to do so, but specifies no further as to how such earning would be accomplished.

Interestingly, later in "Lethe" (DSC) it is said that Kol has established a "new ruling Council" and has ousted House D'Ghor and House Mókai, both of which were led by women—well, the latter has Matriarchs anyway, per "The Butcher's Knife Cares Not For The Lamb's Cry" (DSC), even if their apparent representative on the Council, Ujilli, is male—and are now acting independently. Of course, this might have been merely part of the grand deception designed to lure Sarek there to be taken hostage...but not necessarily, because it is only after their unexpected over-achievement of landing him Cornwell that Kol says they have proven themselves worthy of a place in his new Empire. In any case, Dennas is later seen in Council Chambers in "Will You Take My Hand" (DSC).

Yeah, I think it is pretty clear that the High Council is composed of the leaders of the great houses.

Oh, and Dennas was apparently the representative of house D'Ghor in the High Council, so that is at least one female high councillor.

They can wear wtf this thing is, but they can't have hair?

That "thing" she's wearing seems to have been inspired by the somewhat similar headdresses worn by Valkris in STIII and Sirella in "You Are Cordially Invited" (DS9):

http://startrekpropcollector.com/trekauctions/item.pl?i=5574

http://startrekpropcollector.com/trekauctions/item.pl?i=3567

-MMoM

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Just reached "Redemption" in my TNG re-watch the other night, and unfortunately I need to refute my own theory above about Gowron being the one to ban women from serving on the Council, because I failed to recall that he had not yet been installed as Leader at the time of that conversation with Picard. Sorry about that.

Yet, I would still take his earlier exchange with K'Ehleyr in "Reunion" as a likely indicator that this is something the Council Leader and/or Chancellor and/or Supreme Commander (as K'mpec was additionally called there) might well be empowered to nullify or affirm (or at least influence) at his or her discretion. And while I'd maintain that "Redemption" seems to counter-indicate a sharp distinction between women "serving on" versus "leading" the Council (at that point), it also quite clearly illustrates that despite any such restriction on either, they obviously aren't prohibited from being present in Council chambers during meetings, nor from freely addressing the Council:

-MMoM