Did Janeway torture Paris in "Thirty Days"?
- Thread starter The Overlord
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Maybe but let's be honest, breakfast for dinner is not particularly healthy, especially if the breakfast is very full & completed with coffee or tea! ;-)
(Alright, I know that the black brevage is a Janeway's favourite at any time of day or night, but hey, the majority of people do not act like that,... unless having a long night of work or study in front of them! ;-) )
Harsh reaction from Capt. Kathryn Janeway towards Tom Paris, yes (but in the same time, whatever the reason given for his action, as full of good intentions it had, Tom not only didn't obey to a direct order but he openly violated Starfleet sacrosanct Prime Directive policy which he knew the ins and outs, placing his commanding officer in a very uncomfortable position in the midst of a fratricidal feud about the value of water, which was on the verge to lead to an open & violent warfare between 2 clans of the same species) but torture?! Nope. Plus, if Paris has acted in the same way in AQ, well, it was a direct return to penal colony for him with no chance of parole and Janeway's support, supposing she wanted to help him, would have not served much purpose in his defense.
That being said, I think that the emotional repercurssion to find out that Janeway would have killed him without hesitation, in ordering the destruction of his vessel, was a bit too much. The humiliation of dowgrading from Lieutenant Jr to Enseign and the confinement for 30 days with no chance to see his friends/lover to visit him and to eat meals he, the greedy, would enjoy to perfect punishment.
What could amazed cons is the severity of the punishment to Tom Paris compared to the laxness she showed up there with Chakotay, B'Elena Torres, Tuvok, the Doctor, Seven, Harry* and even Neelix when they knowingly disobeyed her orders and/or their decisions put her in a uncomfortable situation or put in danger the crew.
For me, for ex, what they did was as serious as what Tom has done (especially Harry which the fault was the same nature than Tom, and they equally deserved a stay in the brig for 1 or 2 months. The confinement in the quarters was too kind and I'm not sure they really learnt the lesson.
That being said, I think that the emotional repercurssion to find out that Janeway would have killed him without hesitation, in ordering the destruction of his vessel, was a bit too much. The humiliation of dowgrading from Lieutenant Jr to Enseign and the confinement for 30 days with no chance to see his friends/lover to visit him and to eat meals he, the greedy, would enjoy to perfect punishment.
What could amazed cons is the severity of the punishment to Tom Paris compared to the laxness she showed up there with Chakotay, B'Elena Torres, Tuvok, the Doctor, Seven, Harry* and even Neelix when they knowingly disobeyed her orders and/or their decisions put her in a uncomfortable situation or put in danger the crew.
For me, for ex, what they did was as serious as what Tom has done (especially Harry which the fault was the same nature than Tom, and they equally deserved a stay in the brig for 1 or 2 months. The confinement in the quarters was too kind and I'm not sure they really learnt the lesson.
I don't get the comparisons with Counterpoint. Yes, technically Janeway was breaking local law by hiding telepaths (were the "relocation centers" actually death camps or "just" incarceration facilities?). But I don't see why she'd be deserving of punishment here, as the PD barely applies. The fiasco of Scorpian is a different story altogether
I don't think Janeway had a problem with his conviction and unrepentant attitude as much as she did his blatant violation of her orders and violating the prime directive.
She likely privately agreed with him that yes those aliens were acting in a self destructive manner but the prime directive dictates that she couldn't do anything but give advice and hope they use it.
She likely privately agreed with him that yes those aliens were acting in a self destructive manner but the prime directive dictates that she couldn't do anything but give advice and hope they use it.
For god's sake, any basic punishment can be deemed "cruel and unusual" these days. Tom violated a direct order from his captain, and served one month in the brig for it. Not that unreasonable IMO.
I LOL'd (agree) but there are people who spend less time in SHU for worse in our culture and maybe that's what they're trying to point out.
Well, just because the system is screwed up doesn't mean Janeway "tortured" Tom with a month-long time-out.
He was stuck in a very small cell. Torture, no. Strange and unusual treatment, yes. Still, it could've been worse. She could've given him the punishment that she usually gives in cases of insubordination - the "I'm disappointed in you..." treatment. Now that's torture. For us, as well.
Unless one is planning to stay up all night. Remember, Janeway and torture and other people in responses saying "sadism" and "handcuffs". Well, after 5 pages somebody else must've gotten to "handcuffs" before me but those other keywords were already used...
Tom Paris, in "Thirty Days" has been punished as much punished psychologically as well as with confinement, with all his favorite hobbies: good food, company of his friends and of course, holodeck's programs) denied.
My problem with this episode wasn't the fact that Paris was sent in Voyager's brig (he clearly deserved it) but rather the fact that he was the only one to face this fate while some others from the senior crew would have deserved to make a stay (instead, they got ONLY a confinement in their quarters or a blame in their personal files).
A contrario, someone like Tuvok took very serioulsly Janeway's "I'm very disappointed in you" in 'Prime Factors" (?) because the worst he could commit, would be to disappoint his friend.
My problem with this episode wasn't the fact that Paris was sent in Voyager's brig (he clearly deserved it) but rather the fact that he was the only one to face this fate while some others from the senior crew would have deserved to make a stay (instead, they got ONLY a confinement in their quarters or a blame in their personal files).
A contrario, someone like Tuvok took very serioulsly Janeway's "I'm very disappointed in you" in 'Prime Factors" (?) because the worst he could commit, would be to disappoint his friend.
Also, Paris being incarcerated at a Penal colony in New Zealand when the show begins. That's some abhorant eighteenth century shit even in the 20th century, let alone the 24th century. I think it speaks to the big problems in 24th century life that noone wants to talk about, ie they talk a good game about being enlightened, but beneath all that there's a dark underbelly that gets pushed as far from the surface as possible.
The reason Tommy Boy is the tittle tattle of Voyager when he jumps on board in 'Caretaker' isn't just because he's a criminal, or even about what he did, but because he's an iconoclast to bland, boring 24th century humanity. For that you get locked in irons.
I don't know if it's been touched on in this thread, but you have to consider Tom Paris' particular situation as compared to the rest of the crew.
To borrow a phrase Chakotay used, Paris was Janeway's "personal reclamation project". Janeway sought Tom personally at least in part because of her serving with his father. She feels a certain kinship toward him, and sees his potential when others have written him off. In his time aboard Voyager, he begins to find his way again, learning responsibility and building relationships.
When Paris disobeys, it reflects badly on Janeway in a way no one else's behavior quite does. She had him sprung from prison (call it a penal colony, it's still prison) and more or less puts her own reputation on the line in doing so. Admittedly, they were then thrust into a situation when they had to use whoever was available, but that only underscores why she had to take what seems to be such a heavy-handed action. If things all go bad, there's no one else to turn to. Voyager can't afford to have a senior officer fall out of line.
If there's a severity to the punishment, it's because of what had all been at stake for what Paris did: Captain Janeway's decision to take a chance on him, his direct and open challenge to her authority, his personal and professional standing among his fellow crewmembers, the risk of creating a potential enemy in the quadrant.
In this way, you cannot really draw a fair comparison to Lon Suder because the situations are different. There was never the intention to lock Paris up for the rest of his life; he was a valuable crew member who still had a place to serve aboard Voyager, and even Janeway privately agreed with him even as she had to punish him. The punishment had to be severe because there was so much to lose, but there was hope for Tom. In Suder's case, they really had no idea how long they were going to have to confine him, considering the murder he committed happened fairly early in Voyager's time in the Delta Quadrant. Confinement to quarters for the rest of his life (however long that might've been) is as fair a punishment as Janeway can hand down when faced with not being able to reintegrate him into the crew, being unwilling to execute him, not wanting to pass him off to a local authority when Suder really was Voyager's problem, and not wanting to lock him in the brig for the rest of his life (if people on this thread think thirty days in the brig is too harsh, imagine potentially spending the rest of your natural life there, and you'll begin to understand Janeway's decision).
To borrow a phrase Chakotay used, Paris was Janeway's "personal reclamation project". Janeway sought Tom personally at least in part because of her serving with his father. She feels a certain kinship toward him, and sees his potential when others have written him off. In his time aboard Voyager, he begins to find his way again, learning responsibility and building relationships.
When Paris disobeys, it reflects badly on Janeway in a way no one else's behavior quite does. She had him sprung from prison (call it a penal colony, it's still prison) and more or less puts her own reputation on the line in doing so. Admittedly, they were then thrust into a situation when they had to use whoever was available, but that only underscores why she had to take what seems to be such a heavy-handed action. If things all go bad, there's no one else to turn to. Voyager can't afford to have a senior officer fall out of line.
If there's a severity to the punishment, it's because of what had all been at stake for what Paris did: Captain Janeway's decision to take a chance on him, his direct and open challenge to her authority, his personal and professional standing among his fellow crewmembers, the risk of creating a potential enemy in the quadrant.
In this way, you cannot really draw a fair comparison to Lon Suder because the situations are different. There was never the intention to lock Paris up for the rest of his life; he was a valuable crew member who still had a place to serve aboard Voyager, and even Janeway privately agreed with him even as she had to punish him. The punishment had to be severe because there was so much to lose, but there was hope for Tom. In Suder's case, they really had no idea how long they were going to have to confine him, considering the murder he committed happened fairly early in Voyager's time in the Delta Quadrant. Confinement to quarters for the rest of his life (however long that might've been) is as fair a punishment as Janeway can hand down when faced with not being able to reintegrate him into the crew, being unwilling to execute him, not wanting to pass him off to a local authority when Suder really was Voyager's problem, and not wanting to lock him in the brig for the rest of his life (if people on this thread think thirty days in the brig is too harsh, imagine potentially spending the rest of your natural life there, and you'll begin to understand Janeway's decision).
Another reason is that Janeway wanted to succeed with Paris, where his father had failed, which would explain why she never regarded the ambitious Harry Kim in that manner. Both Janeway and Admiral Paris wanted to transform Paris into the perfect Starfleet officer. It must have taken both of them by surprise that Paris might want to be something else.
EXCELLENT!!!!
In reply to CRIM-114, Janeway's punishment was pretty fair and as I wrote in my last comment, it is regrettable that all senior officers were not subjected to the same treatment or something similar in order they can learn the lessons.
That being said, there is one thing which has surprised me in one of the scenes : the attitude of the officer responsible of the brig section when Tom Paris was present. Indeed, when Voyager was suddenly attacked, the said officer simply left or rather ran away - surely to regain a new and more favorable position in battle - simply abandonning the prisoner/inmate to his fate, as seeing as the cell was not de-secured, instead of putting him in a safe place before going about his business. Fortunately there was more fear than harm and Tom Paris escaped with few scratches on the body due to violent shaking and he was quickly supported by the doctor, once the fight was over but, it was an inconsiderate act from the Brig's officer. I mean, what would have happened if the explosions had seriously damaged the area where brigs were and Tom has been seriously and even fatally hurt?!
-> no one deserves to die in these conditions!
That being said, there is one thing which has surprised me in one of the scenes : the attitude of the officer responsible of the brig section when Tom Paris was present. Indeed, when Voyager was suddenly attacked, the said officer simply left or rather ran away - surely to regain a new and more favorable position in battle - simply abandonning the prisoner/inmate to his fate, as seeing as the cell was not de-secured, instead of putting him in a safe place before going about his business. Fortunately there was more fear than harm and Tom Paris escaped with few scratches on the body due to violent shaking and he was quickly supported by the doctor, once the fight was over but, it was an inconsiderate act from the Brig's officer. I mean, what would have happened if the explosions had seriously damaged the area where brigs were and Tom has been seriously and even fatally hurt?!
-> no one deserves to die in these conditions!
So I think most of us are in agreement that her punishment of tom seemed oddly harsh considering other people did punishment worthy things and got a slap on the wrist.
I wonder if this had to do with the public nature of it. Everyone saw what was happening and knew what Tom was doing. So she had to let the crew know that disobeying orders would not go unpunished
I wonder if this had to do with the public nature of it. Everyone saw what was happening and knew what Tom was doing. So she had to let the crew know that disobeying orders would not go unpunished
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