That might be a bit awkward...
"Hey, look, I found some orders here."
"INTO THE BRIG WITH YOU!"
Did Janeway torture Paris in "Thirty Days"?
- Thread starter The Overlord
- Start date
That might be a bit awkward...
"Hey, look, I found some orders here."
"INTO THE BRIG WITH YOU!"
We're pointing out her double standards here. But I think the whole purpose of the episode is an attempt to correct the permissive attitude Janeway has had to delinquent members of her crew to date. It's an attempt to show her hard authoritarian side.
Lol...typoThat might be a bit awkward...
"Hey, look, I found some orders here."
"INTO THE BRIG WITH YOU!"
This episode always makes me laugh as only a few years later he’s promoted again while poor Harry is still a ensign.
If anything Janeway was torturing him.
If anything Janeway was torturing him.
I don't think it was a promotion but a reinstatement. More like just the end of his punishmentThis episode always makes me laugh as only a few years later he’s promoted again while poor Harry is still a ensign.
If anything Janeway was torturing him.
Maybe, but the punishment, even if it was deserved, was harsh (this is not because I didn't write in my last comment that I didn't think it was, especially the threat to be killed & the demotion... even if Tom recovered his lost golden pip later), comparing to what some others have done before, especially when they disbeyed a direct order from the Captain. Not necessarely a sanction scale of penalties applicable (minor, normal or severe) but a sanction assessed on people ((for sure, it would request a little psychology from Janeway but well, at least, they would never forget!) : for ex, for The Doctor, the confiscation of his mobile ermitter during for non-emergency periods & suspension of his right to access to holodecks in his free time ; for B'Elena & Harry, a stay in the brig for 1 month or being ordered to support Neelix in the Mess Hall; for Neelix, a ban of cooking .... even if I think that the crew would appreciate this break although for the moral of troups... and be deprived of seeing Naomi for a month; for Tuvok, the only idea to have disappointed his Captain & friend is already a serious punishment but according to the character, he would choose to self isolate knowingly in his quarters without being invited. As for Chakotay, I don't see why his title of First Officer should dispense him to be sanctioned - and not by a simple slap on the wrist or a confinement in his quarters - in case of disobedience.
He is set to show the example among the crew so, when he misses the opportunity to do it, like when he has stolen a shuttle to sort out his case with Seska or bypass Janeway's commands/orders, he must be clearly sanctioned without hesitation, even if his reputation suffers for a little while, like the cleaning of Jeffries tube at the end of his service during 1 month; for Seven, as seeing as isolation did nothing on her, the suspension of her access of her favourite place, the Astronomy Lab for the same duration except for emergencies.
Tom was merely reinstated to his former rank of Lieutenant Junior Grade.
Yeah that's what i mean, he wasn't promoted
Honestly, when it comes to this episode, it's one of the episodes which really annoyed me and made me question my decision to start watching Voyager again after a two-year absence.
It's also one of the few times when Janeway really annoyed me. But I was more annoyed with the writers.
Imean, here we have Janeway who accepted that Torres almost killed Lieutenant Carey in "Parallax", who did forgive Chakotay for running off like he did in "Maneuvers", who let Neelix get away with a slight reprimand after lying and messing things up in "Fair Trade", who many times proved that she was ready to sacrifice herself if it could save the life of a crewmember.
And here she's torturing Paris for some minor things which can't be compared to some of the things I mentioned above! OK, she didn't force him to listen to Justin Bieber or Katy Perry, that would have killed him but the whole thing with sitting in that cell writing down his "confessions" like some innocent victim in a Soviet prison during Stalin's terrors almost made me puke.
That's not the Captain Janeway I liked in the first three seasons, that's not Janeway at all.
If I had been Tuvok, I would have had Janeway arrested and scanned for alien intruders who may have taken over her, like the ones in "Cathexis" or Tieran in "Warlord".
Most of all, I would have liked to sit down with the writer over a cup of coffee and told him about continuity and such and how you don't ruin a main character by turning him/her into something he/she never was meant to be.
It's also one of the few times when Janeway really annoyed me. But I was more annoyed with the writers.
Imean, here we have Janeway who accepted that Torres almost killed Lieutenant Carey in "Parallax", who did forgive Chakotay for running off like he did in "Maneuvers", who let Neelix get away with a slight reprimand after lying and messing things up in "Fair Trade", who many times proved that she was ready to sacrifice herself if it could save the life of a crewmember.
And here she's torturing Paris for some minor things which can't be compared to some of the things I mentioned above! OK, she didn't force him to listen to Justin Bieber or Katy Perry, that would have killed him but the whole thing with sitting in that cell writing down his "confessions" like some innocent victim in a Soviet prison during Stalin's terrors almost made me puke.
That's not the Captain Janeway I liked in the first three seasons, that's not Janeway at all.
If I had been Tuvok, I would have had Janeway arrested and scanned for alien intruders who may have taken over her, like the ones in "Cathexis" or Tieran in "Warlord".
Most of all, I would have liked to sit down with the writer over a cup of coffee and told him about continuity and such and how you don't ruin a main character by turning him/her into something he/she never was meant to be.
I liked the episode. Janeway did not go overboard. Paris stole a shuttle, ignored direct orders, and tried to destroy the property of an alien civilization. The 'why' of it is not important. Janeway's reaction was good. She can't just ignore things like this all the time.
The problem is all those other episodes where she was too lenient. That's what makes this one seem out of place. I contend, however, that 'Thirty days' is not out of place, but that all those other episodes (like the one where she put Chakotay 'on report'), were poorly written.
It was a good episode.
The problem is all those other episodes where she was too lenient. That's what makes this one seem out of place. I contend, however, that 'Thirty days' is not out of place, but that all those other episodes (like the one where she put Chakotay 'on report'), were poorly written.
It was a good episode.
It wasn't the fact that Janeway punished Tom Paris which was shocking - he rightly deserved to learn the lesson (even if to decide demoting him from Lieutenant to Enseign after to have already convicted him to serve 30 days of total isolation, wasn't necessarily needed, in my opinion) - but what it was, was the absence of punishment for worst and/or equivalent misconduct in the past for her others senior officers.
Indeed, if I remember well, the worst "punishment" she gave in the past was a reporting in an agent's record (Harry Kim, while he has clearly disobeyed to a Captain's direct order in pursuing a sexual relationship with a female alien, endangering both crews & diplomatic relationships, cf to The Disease
). The other members of her senior crew got often away a with a slap on the wrist*, with the promise not do it again...., promise they were often quick to forget! 
* Chakotay, whatever he knowingly disobeyed his commanding officer's orders or stole a shuttle without permission, gave away because 1) a jailed First Officer would be a wrong kind of messaging and 2) punishing him could revive tensions between Starfleet and the Maquis. But I'd add too that all mentions of his misconduct in his Starfleet (temporarily) personal record during the journey would not have served much as seeing as if it was consulted it, that could could hurt him even more => don't forget that for Starfleet, he was still considered as a Maquis rebel and that charges against him remained relevant. If admirals noted that he had acted against the orders of his commanding officer and/or court-circuited them to act as he has chosen to do, it wouldn't be good to defend his case. Same for B'Elena Torres, even if she pretty well behaved throughout.
* the Doctor gave away because I don't know why, Janeway thought his mistakes and misconduct went with discovering his incipient sentinety/"humanity". Same for Seven (although after s4, she pretty well behaved but even in S4 ,there was always a certain logical behind her actions), even if their actions led to the suicide of an alien!
. He pursued his fantaisies until the end, endangering several times the crew, without expressing true regrets, under the pretext to have acted on supposed "emotions".
* the only ones who got Janeway's lectures but were deeply marked by them as much as if they had received a monumental slap in the face, were Tuvok & Neelix.
Indeed, if I remember well, the worst "punishment" she gave in the past was a reporting in an agent's record (Harry Kim, while he has clearly disobeyed to a Captain's direct order in pursuing a sexual relationship with a female alien, endangering both crews & diplomatic relationships, cf to The Disease
). The other members of her senior crew got often away a with a slap on the wrist*, with the promise not do it again...., promise they were often quick to forget! * Chakotay, whatever he knowingly disobeyed his commanding officer's orders or stole a shuttle without permission, gave away because 1) a jailed First Officer would be a wrong kind of messaging and 2) punishing him could revive tensions between Starfleet and the Maquis. But I'd add too that all mentions of his misconduct in his Starfleet (temporarily) personal record during the journey would not have served much as seeing as if it was consulted it, that could could hurt him even more => don't forget that for Starfleet, he was still considered as a Maquis rebel and that charges against him remained relevant. If admirals noted that he had acted against the orders of his commanding officer and/or court-circuited them to act as he has chosen to do, it wouldn't be good to defend his case. Same for B'Elena Torres, even if she pretty well behaved throughout.
* the Doctor gave away because I don't know why, Janeway thought his mistakes and misconduct went with discovering his incipient sentinety/"humanity". Same for Seven (although after s4, she pretty well behaved but even in S4 ,there was always a certain logical behind her actions), even if their actions led to the suicide of an alien!
. He pursued his fantaisies until the end, endangering several times the crew, without expressing true regrets, under the pretext to have acted on supposed "emotions". * the only ones who got Janeway's lectures but were deeply marked by them as much as if they had received a monumental slap in the face, were Tuvok & Neelix.
Doing a rewatch binge.
On this topic:
I thought I’d look at it from a Doyle vs Watson perspective. Where, Sir Arthur Conan ‘Doyle’ is the POV of the author and ‘Watson’ is how other characters see it in universe (using Sherlock Holmes as the example)
Was it torture?
Doyle in -1999: no. It was an appropriate punishment for breach of duty (disobeying orders, violating prime directive)
Inconsistency with other stories was a massive blind spot by the story authors and is ignored from the Author’s POV.
Doyle in 2023: probably. The use of excessive solitary confinement was deemed torture by the UN beginning in 2014. He had no change of clothing, no shower, no visitors, and a data padd for writing, not news or entertainment. It was intended to be ‘hard time’ and it was psychological torture - especially for him.
Inconsistency with other stories was a massive blind spot by the story authors.
Watson: in context of rest of series, she WAS harsh with Paris compared with others and it seemed personal.
But she also: 1) left him as a senior officer and department head and 2) reinstated his rank*
Interestingly, Paris and Janeway are VERY similar in many respects. Janeway always believed she would face consequences for many of her decisions when she returned to the AQ. So, she made decisions expecting punishment eventually. Unrepentant. Paris did as well. But unlike Janeway, his consequences were immediate. And he’d do it again. He left that society with a massive warning - his actions likely sparked debate on what needed to be done. Even if ultimately unsuccessful on immediate goal, he left knowing his actions may have spurred change. It was all he could do under the circumstances and he was at peace with that. Janeway understood. Because she had made similar decisions during the 7 year timeline. ‘Endgame’ was a massive example of unrepentant Janeway.
*On rank: he had two solid silver pips, pre-demotion. He was an O-3 (Officer, level 3). She took off two steps to make him an ensign (he became an O-1) He recovered with a black pip - to a Lt JG (he became an O-2). So it wasn’t a full reinstatement. I suspect there may have been blowback on her actions (Doylist POV).
On this topic:
I thought I’d look at it from a Doyle vs Watson perspective. Where, Sir Arthur Conan ‘Doyle’ is the POV of the author and ‘Watson’ is how other characters see it in universe (using Sherlock Holmes as the example)
Was it torture?
Doyle in -1999: no. It was an appropriate punishment for breach of duty (disobeying orders, violating prime directive)
Inconsistency with other stories was a massive blind spot by the story authors and is ignored from the Author’s POV.
Doyle in 2023: probably. The use of excessive solitary confinement was deemed torture by the UN beginning in 2014. He had no change of clothing, no shower, no visitors, and a data padd for writing, not news or entertainment. It was intended to be ‘hard time’ and it was psychological torture - especially for him.
Inconsistency with other stories was a massive blind spot by the story authors.
Watson: in context of rest of series, she WAS harsh with Paris compared with others and it seemed personal.
But she also: 1) left him as a senior officer and department head and 2) reinstated his rank*
Interestingly, Paris and Janeway are VERY similar in many respects. Janeway always believed she would face consequences for many of her decisions when she returned to the AQ. So, she made decisions expecting punishment eventually. Unrepentant. Paris did as well. But unlike Janeway, his consequences were immediate. And he’d do it again. He left that society with a massive warning - his actions likely sparked debate on what needed to be done. Even if ultimately unsuccessful on immediate goal, he left knowing his actions may have spurred change. It was all he could do under the circumstances and he was at peace with that. Janeway understood. Because she had made similar decisions during the 7 year timeline. ‘Endgame’ was a massive example of unrepentant Janeway.
*On rank: he had two solid silver pips, pre-demotion. He was an O-3 (Officer, level 3). She took off two steps to make him an ensign (he became an O-1) He recovered with a black pip - to a Lt JG (he became an O-2). So it wasn’t a full reinstatement. I suspect there may have been blowback on her actions (Doylist POV).
Nope, he was a JG before he was demoted.
I think he wore two gold pips for a while in Season 1, but like B'Elanna was "demoted" to JG when Tuvok's rank pips were corrected to that of a LT (per the title credits) rather than the LCDR pips that he'd worn since the pilot, which he maintained until officially promoted to LCDR on-screen in Revulsion (VOY).
Yeah, Tom and B'Ellanna both wore full Lieutenant's insignia in the first season until they corrected Tuvok's insignia. After that, they both became JG's in order to reflect that Tuvok was meant to have seniority over them.
Tom and B'Elanna's ranks were outright imaginary, and they both should have been sent to prison upon returning to Federation Space, since no one did nothing to mitigate their crimes against the Federation on the trip home.
Justice on Voyager was insanely skewed anyway. Consider that Harry got a career-smashing reprimand for having sex with an alien, which everyone else except Tuvok probably did at some point (including Janeway herself) without penalty. And, for physically assaulting a superior, B'Elanna Torres got... promoted. 
Ironically, when Tom got a demotion and 30d in the brig for his behavior concerning the ocean, that was appropriate. Since simply cashiering him wasn't possible, he had to be dealt with "within house". The problem was the word "solitary". If he had reasonable contact with others (the guard, Neelix, Harry, others), then it was a fair punishment. If not, it was technically torture.
Ironically, when Tom got a demotion and 30d in the brig for his behavior concerning the ocean, that was appropriate. Since simply cashiering him wasn't possible, he had to be dealt with "within house". The problem was the word "solitary". If he had reasonable contact with others (the guard, Neelix, Harry, others), then it was a fair punishment. If not, it was technically torture.
I don't think he got a career-smashing reprimand for having sex with an alien. He got a reprimand for violating the protocol and disobeying an additional direct order from Janeway who had told them explicitly 'no personal interactions with the Varro crew' before they went aboard.
As to whether Janeway should have given that order in the first place, I suppose you can have a discussion - she probably reinforced standing protocol because the Varro seem very reclusive and it was very hard to win their trust to begin with. Regardless, Janeway seems to mind a breach of protocol far less than a violation of orders that were issued by Her Highness in person
As to whether Janeway should have given that order in the first place, I suppose you can have a discussion - she probably reinforced standing protocol because the Varro seem very reclusive and it was very hard to win their trust to begin with. Regardless, Janeway seems to mind a breach of protocol far less than a violation of orders that were issued by Her Highness in person
And he was in an altered mental state at the time. Janeway knew this, and knew that his career probably wouldn't survive it, especially combined with 7 years as an ensign... but the reprimand stood.
Consider what Janeway herself had done in a similarly altered state, just a year previous, in "Scientific Method". Banging an alien woman isn't much, compared to almost killing your own crew by flying into a pulsar. And that's assuming the 30 or so alien scientists she did kill were considered justified.
Consider what Janeway herself had done in a similarly altered state, just a year previous, in "Scientific Method". Banging an alien woman isn't much, compared to almost killing your own crew by flying into a pulsar. And that's assuming the 30 or so alien scientists she did kill were considered justified.
Even so, he never would have been in that altered mental state had he obeyed her orders in the first place. Which means that even if that altered state was stronger than his will and it totally had overpowered him (which I don't believe judging by his actions), she still could rightfully punish him for his original violation because back then he wasn't under that influence.
But I'll agree that her punishment (a formal reprimand) seems way too severe for the fact. Chakotay says the same, and she light-handedly waves that away with 'I wanted to leave a lasting impression. Chalk it up to growing pains'.
I guess it's one of those examples of character assassination because the writers simply wanted to tell the story they told and didn't seem to care beyond the script of the week.
But I'll agree that her punishment (a formal reprimand) seems way too severe for the fact. Chakotay says the same, and she light-handedly waves that away with 'I wanted to leave a lasting impression. Chalk it up to growing pains'.
I guess it's one of those examples of character assassination because the writers simply wanted to tell the story they told and didn't seem to care beyond the script of the week.
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