I had no problem with it. I thought, unlike TNG's approach to the regular characters, that it was a good dramatic development.
Did the 24th century shows get too insulting/condescending about TOS?
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I had no problem with it. I thought, unlike TNG's approach to the regular characters, that it was a good dramatic development.
I can't offer my thoughts about "Sarek" in 1990 -- it was the year before I became a fan -- but I can offer my thoughts about what I thought of "Sarek" in 1991 or '92.
To set the context, I saw the movies first, in 1991. Rented "Encounter at Farpoint" and that one episode scared me off from even looking at TNG again, until I read in TV Guide that Spock was making an appearance. So I saw "Unification" before I saw "Sarek". Sarek was extremely old and, even at 12, I knew Alzheimer's went with the territory. So I had no problem with "Sarek" when I finally saw it. It's a powerful episode. I thought it then, I think it now.
And it's completely 100% ridiculous the fight Ira Steven Behr had to go through with Rick Berman just to get Sarek to be able to say "Spock". All I can say is: thanks to TrekBBS, I can understand Ira's pain. I've been like an Ira, arguing with so many Ricks.
To set the context, I saw the movies first, in 1991. Rented "Encounter at Farpoint" and that one episode scared me off from even looking at TNG again, until I read in TV Guide that Spock was making an appearance. So I saw "Unification" before I saw "Sarek". Sarek was extremely old and, even at 12, I knew Alzheimer's went with the territory. So I had no problem with "Sarek" when I finally saw it. It's a powerful episode. I thought it then, I think it now.
And it's completely 100% ridiculous the fight Ira Steven Behr had to go through with Rick Berman just to get Sarek to be able to say "Spock". All I can say is: thanks to TrekBBS, I can understand Ira's pain. I've been like an Ira, arguing with so many Ricks.
I saw Unification before Sarek too! It was available as a rented video around the time of the Undiscovered Country coming out! I copied it and seemed to know where the break would come and split it into two parts like the article had said weeks earlier!
JB
JB
Well Scotty very much was to him, assuming he was being careless in ways that could destroy the ship rather than just that practices had changed in 70 years.
This was an absolutely dreadful episode.
It didn't make me think the 20th century was bad but made me think badly of Picard and particularly Riker with his smug "I'm better than you" attitude.
Picard seemed to have no compassion at all and comes off worse than when he was condemning pre-Warp civilizations to death. Just let them die Think of Gillian in STIV saying that her compassion was not based on intelligence.
It wasn't that the crew of the Enterprise had some philosophical reasons for not reviving the 20th century humans. Just that they couldn't be bothered. Its not worth their precious time (in which they seemed to be doing nothing much while hurrying to a destination). It took me a long time to warm to these characters again.
So if they say they were saying 20th century ideals were wrong, why was there a stay-at-home mother there. Were they saying her life was wasted and she should have been a career gal like Beverley and Troi? I don't understand that particular criticism of the 20th century. They just did it so badly. Of course Data shines in this episode and the other officers behave like sanctimonious idiots except for Beverley who acts like a simpering idiot. I'd prefer they have never made this episode. I don't think it would have been a season 6 episode say.,
Ah so it did happen.
I agree to a small extent. I think you're reading too much into everyone's reactions. Most of their reactions were to the millionaire's disruptive, patronizing behavior. They were very distracted since war might be about to break out.
I try to understand Picard's attitude. I don't agree with it, but apparently this is a society that believes death is to accepted at some point, and cryogenics struck them as a bit obsessive... and though it turned out they were able to undo the situation, "They were already dead", as Picard put it. Once they were revived, there was absolutely no question of killing them, or not protecting them.
Was that some nursing home wedding? Michael would have had to be at least 90. Perhaps Picard ran away himself after seeing the bridesmaids.
According to Tapestry, young Picard had no issue with older women, although Burnham would've been between 100 and 107 when Picard was a Lt. (Burnham born in 2226, Picard was an Ensign in 2327 and a Lt. Commander in 2333). Can you imagine him hitting on her at the bar before discovering who she really is?
There might not be a lot of other choices at a Vulcan wedding.
Something to keep in mind about "The Neutral Zone" is that because of the writer's strike, the script was rushed and couldn't be amended during production. Some of its rough edges likely would have been smoothed out otherwise.
I've always thought "The Neutral Zone" was the best of TNG S1. And it's not really all that good either (though by no means among the most awful eps of the seven seasons either).
But it was nice to see Picard and company get shown up by Offenhouse. Data provided a lot of natural humor. And the colonists were generally more like regular people than the stuffy 24th century types. And seeing the Romulans finally was so much fun, and what a great new ship they had. Plus, the colonies getting scooped up was obviously a marker for the future, which did pay off. TNG S1 just wasn't that good, IMO, but at least it went out with something memorable.
But it was nice to see Picard and company get shown up by Offenhouse. Data provided a lot of natural humor. And the colonists were generally more like regular people than the stuffy 24th century types. And seeing the Romulans finally was so much fun, and what a great new ship they had. Plus, the colonies getting scooped up was obviously a marker for the future, which did pay off. TNG S1 just wasn't that good, IMO, but at least it went out with something memorable.
And one of those "rough edges" was Data saying that the current year was 2364 - that likely would've been edited out in subsequent drafts. But because it wasn't, that one definitive reference to a specific calendar year became the basis for the entire Okuda ST Chronology!
2364 was 78 years after the movie era, placing STIV (the then most-recent movie) in 2286....
McCoy was said to be 137 years old in "Encounter at Farpoint," placing his birth year in 2227...
And so on and so on...
Funny how that writer's strike ended up having such a huge ripple effect for the ST Universe. What would it look like today if that one line hadn't made it to the final cut of "The Neutral Zone"?
Thinking about it - the problems that I personally have with the episode would have been fixed with a few strokes of the writer's pen. Instead of Picard telling Beverley not to revive them he could have said we might be going to war here, lets revive them on Earth where they can have support from psychologists and Earth historians and we don't have civilians stuck in the middle of a war. And just stop Riker looking down his nose at them. The vegetarian scene with Riker reminds me of the equally bad dinner scene in STVI except the TOS crew did the polite thing and stabbed them in the back after they were out of the room. I'd rather Riker just looked puzzled at the thought of people eating meat and drinking. rather than so judgemental.
The episode was memorable and interesting but for the wrong reasons. The "A" plot was boring while the "B" plot was much more entertaining. I didn't even want to like the 20th century people but the main crew were so awful (except for Data) it made me feel sorry for them moving into the 24th century where saving someone's life seems to be a big bother.
In comparison Kirk would do everything in his power, risk his ship to save a life, not even just human lives. I'm trying to think later on was Picard more compassionate. I'm thinking he was but I'm struggling to think of a specific episode.
What is either sloppy or bad about setting it then, 78 years after (an assumed time of) TVH?
I really liked that the cryostasis condition and the whole beginning of the episode felt vaguely (at least back-of-mind) reminiscent of "Space Seed", the reluctance to revive them felt related to that, and then the episode went in a very different direction about what the revived people were like and what they did.
I don't know where you're getting "sloppy or bad" from in my post, since I never used either term. And I put "rough edges" in quotes.
All I meant was that as ST had traditionally avoided concrete calendar dates in the show, that reference likely would've been edited out if they'd been able to do additional drafts of the story. That's all.
I just think it's funny that what turned into the official ST Chronology hinged on something that arbitrary.
^Well, it's only logical Data would mention a year in 'our' system in order to provide a frame of reference to our 20th century humans just how much time has passed. It needn't have happened on screen if keeping it vague for us (as viewers) was so important, though.
I have no proof, but I'm not sure it is that arbitrary. 2364 places The Voyage Home in 2286, which would put it exactly three hundred years from its release date of 1986.
Mike Okuda might have the answer? I know he is/was a member here, but can't remember his User ID.
Except we already knew that TNG took place in the 24th Century, TWOK opens with In The 23rd Century and we have a line in TNG "The Naked Now" about using a formula from the Enterprise which was decades ago. So I don't really see an issue with giving as exact year.
No, the TNG officers "reactions" came first, Rtiker's worst comment came before he had even spoken to the survivors . Initially Offenhouse was calm and respectful, he only started pushing when he sensed he was being given the run around.
The biggest flaw with that ep is that nobody thought to call in Troi right away. What's the point of having a counselor on board if not to deal with situations like this? It never occurred to anyone that maybe these people would have a little trouble adjusting to the fact that they just woke up on a starship hundreds of years after their own time?
Troi should have been standing by to help them cope emotionally from Act 1.
Troi should have been standing by to help them cope emotionally from Act 1.
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