Small changes

[Catarina]

Why to recast Chakotay. Just kill off the character once and for all (and because he is supposed to be a good guy, make him die as a hero) and create a new character having a different role on board*, performed by an actor who can act a true range of emotions, which goes beyond the frowning & smiling -> for me - but well, each of us is free to like his acting or not, right?! -, there was no subtlety & sincerity in his acting, contrary to others... except Wang, of course!
I still wonder on what basis he & Wang were hired!

* or better, pick another character, who was in background. And as seeing as Chakotay was a Maquis, take another Maquis rebel and expand his personality (Dalby, for ex., whose the past story was interesting & who showed his capacity to lead and care for his people).

You kill Chakotay off we get stuck with Tuvok. If Janeway wants another Maquis (crosses fingers) consider Dalby. Though his attitude needed cleaning up.

 

[Anwar]

I dunno if this counts as a small change or not, but instead of the other crew members being Maquis I would've had there be several AQ species being held at the Ocampa city (Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, Ferengi) who all go with Voyager when the Array is destroyed. That would've given us more avenues for conflict than with the Maquis (which really couldn't last more then 1 or 2 seasons at most).

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

You kill Chakotay off we get stuck with Tuvok. If Janeway wants another Maquis (crosses fingers) consider Dalby. Though his attitude needed cleaning up.

What will be wrong to be stuck with Tuvok as XO? He had the competence, the senority and the Captain's confidence. And besides, he already held the commanding position in Resolutions, in the absence of Janeway & Chakotay, who were busy on an unknown island to replay Adam & Eva with a monkey instead of snake to bring the enterainment.
-> as I already said, I always thought that Chakotay was the XO in title while Tuvok was the one who really acted as XO, because he had Janeway's ear and EVERYONE respected him and his wiseness, even if his general behavior tended to bore them.

If Janeway decided to keep ensuring the collaboration of the Maquis, I would bet that Tuvok, who experienced Dalby in Learning Curve where both ended by developing an understanding and respect for the other, would advice her to appoint him as her First Officer,. Tuvok would continue to supervise behind his back, like he already did with Chakotay.
-> we do not change the general spirit, only the characters. :-)

 

[Catarina]

What will be wrong to be stuck with Tuvok as XO? He had the competence, the senority and the Captain's confidence. And besides, he already held the commanding position in Resolutions, in the absence of Janeway & Chakotay, who were busy on an unknown island to replay Adam & Eva with a monkey instead of snake to bring the enterainment.
-> as I already said, I always thought that Chakotay was the XO in title while Tuvok was the one who really acted as XO, because he had Janeway's ear and EVERYONE respected him and his wiseness, even if his general behavior tended to bore them.

If Janeway decided to keep ensuring the collaboration of the Maquis, I would bet that Tuvok, who experienced Dalby in Learning Curve where both ended by developing an understanding and respect for the other, would advice her to appoint him as her First Officer,. Tuvok would continue to supervise behind his back, like he already did with Chakotay.
-> we do not change the general spirit, only the characters. :-)

I'll be blunt, he was a snooze to an already bad episode where he got command. I didn't miss him in Tuvix. I liked him opposite Seven, I liked seeing him wield a weapon, I'd like more of that but he's vulcan. He wasn't USED to his potential and so all that sticks out to me is boredom. I don't buy this relationship with him beyond serving together before. Why is she always confining in Chakotay but not her Vulcan friend? Because he wouldn't understand? Shame? What?! They don't elaborate and that could bring more story of him besides Neelix' brunt of a joke all the time. I realize these are raw feelings more than logical ones coming from me, but it's how I feel at the moment.

I know you're going to come back with something like "But Chakotay did so much more?" Okay, okay, as I said it's raw emotion verses a logical grounded argument.

I think it comes down to feelings rather than facts. vulcans bore me. The end.

 

[Catarina]

Okay, I'm back with a more sensible response. I feel Tuvok, like so many others, wasn't written to potential and that makes me sad. He had gems in the show, so did others, but could they really play outside their initial written role? I am not so sure. And that feeling isn't stemmed from any character flaw but a writer. I feel he didn't contribute anymore than Chakotay and I find Chakotay slightly more interesting. I need someone I can connect to on an emotional level and he's not it. So that might make it more of a ME issue rather than the character. Does that make sense?

 

[catshadowsi8]

What will be wrong to be stuck with Tuvok as XO? He had the competence, the senority and the Captain's confidence. And besides, he already held the commanding position in Resolutions, in the absence of Janeway & Chakotay, who were busy on an unknown island to replay Adam & Eva with a monkey instead of snake to bring the enterainment.
-> as I already said, I always thought that Chakotay was the XO in title while Tuvok was the one who really acted as XO, because he had Janeway's ear and EVERYONE respected him and his wiseness, even if his general behavior tended to bore them.

If Janeway decided to keep ensuring the collaboration of the Maquis, I would bet that Tuvok, who experienced Dalby in Learning Curve where both ended by developing an understanding and respect for the other, would advice her to appoint him as her First Officer,. Tuvok would continue to supervise behind his back, like he already did with Chakotay.
-> we do not change the general spirit, only the characters. :-)

Sorry but Tuvok was a terrible Captain in Resolutions. It took Kes, a non star fleet member of the crew, to gently steer him into understanding what the crew was feeling because he is so repressed he doesn't get it. His attitude and lack of emotions simply created problems with a human, emotional crew.

There is a reason Vulcans never Captain a ship from earth. Every time they do, from Spock to Tuvok, they slam into the emotional wall. They are simply too different from humans, in how they act, think and react to situations.

In Learning Curve we see this in spades. Tuvok treats his students like they are automatons and is puzzled when they refuse to fall into line. True, he was an instructor, but within the strict confines of Star Fleet rules, and with students who desperately wanted to be there. Faced with a situation outside that rigid zone he fails. Chakotay needs to step in. In the end he breaks his own rule and saves his student but this is not what he considers logical. He 'learns' to do what is illogical but that doesnt mean he will do it again when presented with a different set of circumstances. In fact in Resolution he once again takes the logical path and needs to be talked into an illogicsl one by Kes.

There is also absolutely no evidence that Chakotay is XO in name only. In fact we see the opposite. He meets people in his office, delivers efficency reports to Janeway regularily, in Good Shepard clearly knows the crew members struggling and offers Janeway a straight forward solution to the problem and he offers Janeway options when they are confronting a problem. He also is, according to Janeway, the person she trusts most, so much so she offers him, not Tuvok, the Captain's chair in Night.

Hate Chakotay all you want but you can't make him something he is not anymore than you can Tuvok. Its illogical.

 

[Lynx]

Sorry but Tuvok was a terrible Captain in Resolutions. It took Kes, a non star fleet member of the crew, to gently steer him into understanding what the crew was feeling because he is so repressed he doesn't get it. His attitude and lack of emotions simply created problems with a human, emotional crew.

There is a reason Vulcans never Captain a ship from earth. Every time they do, from Spock to Tuvok, they slam into the emotional wall. They are simply too different from humans, in how they act, think and react to situations.

In Learning Curve we see this in spades. Tuvok treats his students like they are automatons and is puzzled when they refuse to fall into line. True, he was an instructor, but within the strict confines of Star Fleet rules, and with students who desperately wanted to be there. Faced with a situation outside that rigid zone he fails. Chakotay needs to step in. In the end he breaks his own rule and saves his student but this is not what he considers logical. He 'learns' to do what is illogical but that doesnt mean he will do it again when presented with a different set of circumstances. In fact in Resolution he once again takes the logical path and needs to be talked into an illogicsl one by Kes.

There is also absolutely no evidence that Chakotay is XO in name only. In fact we see the opposite. He meets people in his office, delivers efficency reports to Janeway regularily, in Good Shepard clearly knows the crew members struggling and offers Janeway a straight forward solution to the problem and he offers Janeway options when they are confronting a problem. He also is, according to Janeway, the person she trusts most, so much so she offers him, not Tuvok, the Captain's chair in Night.

Hate Chakotay all you want but you can't make him something he is not anymore than you can Tuvok. Its illogical.

Not to mention that he broke his own rule in "Learning Curve" after a chat with Neelix.

I have to give Tuvok some points here. He might be rigid and inflexible but he does at least have the decency to listen. No surprise that Kes could convince him in "Resolutions". She always found a way to solve problems by slight manipulation and also had a good relation to Tuvok. More surprising that Tuvok took an advice from Neelix in "Learning Curve" since I get the impression that Tuvok actually didn't like Neelix, at least not in the first years of their journey and had problems to surpress that emotion.

Interesting also that both Kes and Neelix managed to change Tuvok's mind while poor Harry almost got court martialed when he tried to change Tuvok's mind about negotiating with the Vidiians.

Harry, Harry, Harry. Always the whipping boy!

Anyway, I agree that Tuvok was terrible as captain in "Resolutions" and also rather terrible as instructor to the former Maquis members. Anyone would realize that one can treat former Maquis as First Year Cadets. So I see your point and agree with your statement that Vulcans are not really suited to be Captains on a ship with a mostly human crew but they can be good at many other jobs on a Starship.

I also agree about Chakotay. I find him a very good first officer, actually better than Riker in many situations and there's no doubt that Janeway wanted him to be First Officer. Not only for being a former Maquis who could keep his former colleagues in line but also for his skills and ability to be a good First Officer on the ship.

In the same way, Janeway had Tuvok to take care of the tasks he was really good at, which was being Chief Of Security, Tactical Officer and also something of Janeway's personal counselor and the one who could give her good advices when needed.

 

[Sophie74656]

We don't know what Chakotays rank was befire he resigned. For all we know he could have been a captain.

 

[Lynx]

We don't know what Chakotays rank was befire he resigned. For all we know he could have been a captain.

According to the book "Pathways" by Jeri Taylor, Chakotay was Lieutenant Commander on the ship Gettysburg, serving unde a Captain named Madolyn Gordon. Obviously he was First Officer on that ship. When he was told that his home colony was wiped out by the Cardassians and all people there killed, he quit Starfleet and joined the Maquis.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

To answer to catshadowsi8's post, I'd day that

- first, we talk her about fictional characters, so feelings like "love" or "hate" has very little value. ;-)

- second, telling that Chakotay was First Officer "in title" is just a way of speaking. This does not detract from his skills & attributes (a Starfleet training from his time at the Academy, a rank of Lt Comm and a leadership experience as a Maquis brigade leader), but for someone who has resigned the organisation to join the Maquis and who afterwards, was wanted by authorities for his rebel activities, sorry to say that but his position on Voyager as XO was far to be "legitimate" -> besides even if, a few time after the contact was retablished between Voyager & Earth in S4, Admirals didn't ordered to Captain Janeway a strict return to the protocol on board for the duration of the journey in DQ and that, although they were aware of her little arrangements with the same protocol, they have nevertheless recalled her that they still considered Chakotay and his crew as Maquis rebels and so, criminals!), in opposition to Tuvok, who as an experienced "operational" Starfleet senior officer in executive fonctions and with the rank of Lt Commander, could have had, him, the legitimacy to hold this position to the eyes of Starfleet.

Plus when I stop on the tasks of a Starfleet XO (to serve as the principal adviser to the captain, to implement the captain's orders; to prepare /issue duty rosters including personnel transfers between departments; to follow; to manage the ship's resources, including systems allocation; to commanding the vessel in the event of the captain's absence, incapacitation or death; to work with the chief medical officer or counselor on crew evaluations; to attend meetings and briefings with the captain), please, let me know, catshadowsi8, what Tuvok has not done at least once or can not do or will not do in necessary?
-> it seems to me that Janeway valued Tuvok's advice and guidance as much Chakotay's => These guys are self-sufficient and both reasonable, no-nonsense people but where Tuvok acted by pure logic, Chakotay acted by pure instinct. Both are equal & worth for Janeway..
-> the big difference was that Chakotay did a most part of this work into the light, while Tuvok did some tasks into the shadow but always reported directly to Janeway who, by the way, didn't feel always obliged to refer to her XO for all that.
For ex. when Tuvok found out that there was a spy on board, suspecting he/she was a Maquis, he didn't go and question Chakotay but warned directly Janeway, who was careful not to go ask for explanations to her First Officer and not less friend, Chakotay, but requested Tom's help. Or the scene where Chakotay advocated an alliance with Kazon factions, what Janeway was totally opposite. What did she do? She went to Tuvok's quarters to ask his opinion. In the end, even if Chakotay's project was still unpleasant to her, she gave a chance not because the idea came from was Chakotay but because Tuvok,adviced her logically to try it.

- third, Kate Mulgrew often regretted that Janeway's relationship with Tuvok was relegated to the second level,as well privately as professionally, to better focus on Chakotay, especially in first seasons. I suspect the actress said that, largely because she wanted to share more scenes with Russ but it is true that for 2 people who were supposed to be old close friends, we saw not so much Janeway/Tuvok's scenes, althought each time there was one, it was lovely!

 

[catshadowsi8]

First it doesn't really matter what Starfleet wants. Janeway, as Captain, is in the Delta Quadrant and has the power to appoint provisional ranks. Star Fleet can't do anything about that and, based on Life Signs, she is not interested in 'towing the line' about the Maquis but instead asks Chakotay for his advise on how to respind. She does not turn to Tuvok.

In addition she.could pick whatever XO she wants and, in hindsight, demote anyine she wants. See Tom as an example in Thirty Days. At no time does she pull Chakotay's status as XO, even when they disagree as in Scorpion and Equinix. She repeatedly says she trusts no one more. Yes she consults Tuvok, as she consults B'elanna, Neelix and a few others over time. I'm not disputing this, nor that Janeway is close friends with Tuvok. But he was not, and according to the show, ever considered for the position of XO. In fact, despite being so close, she had a different XO for the journey. Tuvok was, even then, her security officer. Star Fleet did not elevate Tuvok to XO status despite his years of service.

Secondly Tuvok can preform all the tasks mentioned above except perhaps the most important one, acting as a conduit between Janeway and the rest of the ship as well as offer emotional support and advice to the crew. Frankly imo Janeway was smart not to pick Tuvok and not just because of the Maquis. A huge part of the job as XO is, in Janeway's case, working on crew relations. In Janeway's situation that is doubly important. Janeway admits right at the beginning in The Cloud she is unsure of her role regarding connecting on a personal level with the crew. She decides she needs to keep her distance as Captain so she desperately needs her XO to step up to the task and act as an intermediary. As such she often asks Chakotay how the crew is doing. Equinox is one example, as is Night. Chakotay has a healthy enotional connection with the crew. They come to him with their emotional needs as in Remember and Nothing Human. Tuvok can easily perform all the other functions as XO, no question, but he cannot connect on an emotional level with his crew. He is a Vulcan. He simply is not equipped to do so. I can only go with what is shown on screen and this is shown in both Resolutions and Learning Curve.

It is true that once she withheld info about Tom from Chakotay but it was not because he was Maquis. She clearly tells Chakotay she did it so he would react genuinely and not give the slightest sign it was a set up. Since Tom was going to deliberately make Chakotay the one to 'push his buttons' to leave this made sense. Chakotay even accepts this when it is explained to him.

Lastly, If Mulgrew wished for more with Tuvok and less with Chakotay then it proves my point. The character of Janeway turns more to Chakotay for advice. Disease expresses this perfectly when she says Chakotay has her permission to express his opposing viewpoints, Harry does not.

Perhaps it could have been written differently but it was not and i can only go with character. Actors and actresses have their own agendas. It doesn't really play into what i tbink of a character at all, even if they are jerks in real life. Look at Russell Crow. Love the characters he creates on screen, actor is a big meh for me.

Hope i answered all your questions. If hate is too strong a word I apologize and will substitute it with dislike.

 

[Sophie74656]

Being in security, tuvok was not in a command track. I also believe, based on TNG, that to move up to full commander and be eligible to be first officer he would have to go to command school. In times of crisis the captain can make a field promotion but i don't believe it's an "official" promotion

 

[catshadowsi8]

I agree Sophia. Chakotay is only XO until they return to Star Fleet but in the interm, on the ship, he is a Commander acting as first officer, second in command. In Before and After he is the Captain after Janeway 'dies' in an alternate version of Year of Hell. In that version, the crew has accepted him as Captain, at least the few we get to see.

Back in Star Fleet, who knows what happens. They did not show what consequences the Maquis faced in Endgame so fan fic picked up where the show dropped the ball. Since CBS has not given those books the golden seal of approval, they are not considered canon however.

As for Tuvok he is third in line for the chair. Would that not mean he had already gone to command school? We know Chakotay has because Janeway mentions it in Parralax.

Chakotay- 'You are asking them to accept me!'

Janeway- 'You are qualified. You are a graduate of the academy and you have Starfleet command experience.'

All I know of Tuvok is he taught at the academy. I don't recall him having command experience or attending command school. Correct me if im wrong.

Btw I really like Tuvok just as I like Chakotay but I'm aware of the limitations placed on Tuvok's character as a Vulcan. Imo Tuvok's repressed emotions make him a poor fit as first officer or Captain unless he has an exceptional first officer who can soften his demeaner with the crew. Problem is he is still the one making all those decisions and, as seen in Resolution, not willing to take the crew's morale into account. Tjmo though.

 

[Lynx]

Being in security, tuvok was not in a command track. I also believe, based on TNG, that to move up to full commander and be eligible to be first officer he would have to go to command school. In times of crisis the captain can make a field promotion but i don't believe it's an "official" promotion

Good point!

Chakotay was obviously chiosen as First Officer, not only to serve as a link between Janeway and the former Maquis crewmembers but also because he had command experiences, something Tuvok didn't have.

 

[Lance]

Janeway as more obviously young, a first time captain, keen but a little green.

By contrast make Chakotay older... an experienced Starfleet captain, many years of service in all ranks, a respected instructor in tactics at Starfleet academy before he quit to join the Maquis for personal reasons. In practice he's much more knowledgeable than Janeway, but relegated to first officer he is a valuable resource for Janeway -- and he gives her the space to be her own commander unless she really needs his guidance -- but I think it'd be an interesting character dynamic. They'd develop almost as a mentor-like role.

 

[catshadowsi8]

Janeway as more obviously young, a first time captain, keen but a little green.

By contrast make Chakotay older... an experienced Starfleet captain, many years of service in all ranks, a respected instructor in tactics at Starfleet academy before he quit to join the Maquis for personal reasons. In practice he's much more knowledgeable than Janeway, but relegated to first officer he is a valuable resource for Janeway -- and he gives her the space to be her own commander unless she really needs his guidance -- but I think it'd be an interesting character dynamic. They'd develop almost as a mentor-like role.

I suspect this was the role he was suppose to play. Remember he had some grey hair at the beginning. Then J/C hit and tptb noticed. Suddenly no grey hair.

 

[Sophie74656]

I suspect this was the role he was suppose to play. Remember he had some grey hair at the beginning. Then J/C hit and tptb noticed. Suddenly no grey hair.

That happens to me on occasion. One day I'll notice a bunch of grey hair then *poof* a trip to the salon and suddenly no grey hair.

 

[catshadowsi8]

That happens to me on occasion. One day I'll notice a bunch of grey hair then *poof* a trip to the salon and suddenly no grey hair.

It's magic! Lol

 

[Qonundrum]

Let "Worst Case Scenario" not be a contrived holodeck fantasy from season 3 but the event in season 1 that has everyone finally getting past differences that had been building up, and working together as crew after the mutiny is foiled by a giant invisible space creature that eats the ship. Well, something better than a giant invisible space critter that eats the ship and yet said ship doesn't get digested, which would be pretty gross AND a great episode idea for "Family Guy" all rolled into one!

 

[Anwar]

I had another idea for a Voyager Redo is that Chakotay was really an Admiral Starfleet implanted into the Maquis as in infiltrator but he "went native" and Tuvok was sent in to evaluate him and see if he'd really turned. Janeway would be the Ship's 3rd in Command and Science Officer when the Captain and XO are both killed. Problem is, her rank and access is limited enough she can't access necessary stuff on the ship...but because Starfleet wasn't sure about Chakotay they never revoked HIS access and his Admiral rank means he could give her full access to the Ship. So they truly do need one another here and he honestly doesn't want to be Janeway's enemy.