Who’s the Best Person?

[Bad Thoughts]

I would say the opposite for Odo. He may have made some poor decisions at some points but overall he always had the safety of others on mind.

Crossfire directly contradicts this statement.

Bashir was more concerned about his sexual prowess. I still like him a lot but he’s definitely not on my list for most selfless.

Again, Crossfire shows that these issues were far more problematic for Odo. His obsession for Kira nearly got Shakar killed, and instead of hunting down the would-be assassin, he hung outside Kira's quarters until he could sulk in front of her. Auberjonois is an amazing actor, and the character is rich and interesting, but he was, at this stage, a classic creep.

And Bashir was never concerned with his prowess. He may have been oversexed, but he never expressed any concern for new sexual conquests or showed any discomfort with being faithful within in a relationship. There were times he imposed himself or pursued a relationship that ought to have remained professional.

Which finally comes to the question of why curing the blight and the Founders' disease was not selfless (as if selfless is the only criteria by which to judge morality)?

 

[kkt]

MORN!!!!!

Everybody goes to Morn.

Morn, who robbed a bank and cheated his partners so that he could live the life of an idle barfly?

 

[at Quark's]

Rom would be a good candidate.

Miles might be too, we don't see him act selfish a lot of times - (though he has his share of marriage problems). But that also could be because of him usually not being at the front of the story and he's usually there in a 'serving' role.

 

[Mojochi]

I would say different person, same memories though? I don’t 100% fully grasp the Trill/symbiont but I do recall the conversation Jadzia and Sisko had before her wedding with Worf. She mentioned that she negotiated the khitomer treaty and Sisko corrects her saying Curzon did that, not her. I always assumed they had each other’s memories but total free will separate from each other. I could be wrong though, I have a difficult time grasping it haha

But a symbiont has to be more than just memories, otherwise what's the point? You're hosting an entity such that it can continue to exist, & maybe the being takes on a new dynamic, such that you could call it a new person, from the merging of persons, but in some way, all that was the last person is maybe still in there? including that which was uniquely relevant to the previous unjoined Trills' personalities

Point being, as it relates to the topic, if say someone were a murderer, who then gets passed on to the next host, clearly there is enough in there to cause significant struggle with those impulses, as in the case of Joran Belar

Or look at it like this. In that very episode Equilibrium, (which I just watched but didn't care for lol) In one scene, Dax is apprehensive about sleeping in Julian's top bunk, & prefers the lower bunk. because Curzon is afraid of heights, ever since he fell out of a tree. That's just a little handed down acrophobia, that is still a prominent part of her, I'd think homicidal tendencies might be considerably more potent an issue

Now, I'm not automatically saying that this situation means Jadzia or Ezri are bad people as a result, but doesn't it seem plausible to assume they are more prone to murderous tendencies, than someone who hadn't had that influence in their history?

Man... this one is confusing

 

[Nyotarules]

Garak the most honest of them all, what you see is not what you get! lol

 

[TribbleFeeder]

But a symbiont has to be more than just memories, otherwise what's the point? You're hosting an entity such that it can continue to exist, & maybe the being takes on a new dynamic, such that you could call it a new person, from the merging of persons, but in some way, all that was the last person is maybe still in there? including that which was uniquely relevant to the previous unjoined Trills' personalities

Point being, as it relates to the topic, if say someone were a murderer, who then gets passed on to the next host, clearly there is enough in there to cause significant struggle with those impulses, as in the case of Joran Belar

Or look at it like this. In that very episode Equilibrium, (which I just watched but didn't care for lol) In one scene, Dax is apprehensive about sleeping in Julian's top bunk, & prefers the lower bunk. because Curzon is afraid of heights, ever since he fell out of a tree. That's just a little handed down acrophobia, that is still a prominent part of her, I'd think homicidal tendencies might be considerably more potent an issue

Now, I'm not automatically saying that this situation means Jadzia or Ezri are bad people as a result, but doesn't it seem plausible to assume they are more prone to murderous tendencies, than someone who hadn't had that influence in their history?

Man... this one is confusing

Wow, Trill are something else haha! I’m not sure I can wrap my head around it.

But the heights thing makes a lot of sense, along with Jadzia’s love for Lanara that carried over. I guess emotions can be closely tied from one Dax to the next. That definitely leads me to agree that the murderous tendencies must carry on in some way as well. Where there’s love and fear there must also be a lot of anger.

I guess Ezri isn’t as innocent as we think she is!!

 

[TribbleFeeder]

Crossfire directly contradicts this statement.

Again, Crossfire shows that these issues were far more problematic for Odo. His obsession for Kira nearly got Shakar killed, and instead of hunting down the would-be assassin, he hung outside Kira's quarters until he could sulk in front of her. Auberjonois is an amazing actor, and the character is rich and interesting, but he was, at this stage, a classic creep.

And Bashir was never concerned with his prowess. He may have been oversexed, but he never expressed any concern for new sexual conquests or showed any discomfort with being faithful within in a relationship. There were times he imposed himself or pursued a relationship that ought to have remained professional.

Which finally comes to the question of why curing the blight and the Founders' disease was not selfless (as if selfless is the only criteria by which to judge morality)?

I understand what you’re saying about Crossfire, Odo definitely mucked a lot up and I’m not necessarily backing his intentions.

But ultimately you’re stating that
the one good and rightful action done by Bashir is greater than dozens of rightful actions by Odo because of one episode, one incident? My intention when posing this question was more concerning who was the most well rounded good person (@Mojochi ‘s quote from the OP gives more detail), not basing each character on one incident or wrongfulness or righteousness. If that were the case we could discuss how Bashir treats Sarina because that whole situation really hurt is character for sure.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I understand what you’re saying about Crossfire, Odo definitely mucked a lot up and I’m not necessarily backing his intentions.

But ultimately you’re stating that
the one good and rightful action done by Bashir is greater than dozens of rightful actions by Odo because of one episode, one incident? My intention when posing this question was more concerning who was the most well rounded good person (@Mojochi ‘s quote from the OP gives more detail), not basing each character on one incident or wrongfulness or righteousness. If that were the case we could discuss how Bashir treats Sarina because that whole situation really hurt is character for sure.

I pointed upthread to four major missteps that Odo made. The most egregious was deciding not to help Rom and Kira sabotage the station's deflector by defeating security protocols. Although Odo eventually came around, the Federation was required to make a large and risky assault in order to maintain the closure of the wormhole--an assault that cost numerous lives on both sides. That incident happened in season 6, very late in the series, and along with the other three, must be considered a reflection of his personality rather than an anomaly

On the other hand, we know that there were several points at which Bashir went beyond what duty required to deal with complex medical crises, often to his own personal risk. Every character, Bashir and Odo included, have duties that impelled them to do what is more or less right. Bashir maintains health, Odo maintains safety. However, when trying to help Jem'hadar overcome their addiction to White, in trying to cure the Quickening, and when trying to treat Odo, Bashir put himself in harms way in a way that was uncharacteristic--certainly in a way Odo never did. Odo's great act was to convince the Female Founder to surrender. Odo was arguably the linchpin of the Dominion War arc, but this act is unthinkable, both physically and morally, without Bashir. He risked his life to attract a dangerous agent who could kill him bodily and psychically (not to mention who might have turned the entirety of a covert organization against him) to find the cure.

And then Bashir did something of true moral courage: he admitted to Odo that the Federation was the source of the disease.

Yes, Bashir has had major problems with women, which if you actually read my previous posts, you'll see that I mention. How Bashir treated Dax and Serena could have been professional misconduct, if not outright harassment, but given what we see in the dialogue, no judgement of that sort is really possible. OTOH, Odo's behavior in Crossfire is complete egregious, something which can only be emphasized by the horrendous decision by future Odo in Children of Time. From seasons 3 to 6, Odo nurtured a selfishness towards Kira that had the potential to endanger lives.

 

[Riker'sMailbox]

A big part of what I like about DS9 is that the characters are so flawed, yet the viewer can't help but root for them.

I don't find Odo to be well-rounded at all and I view him as more of a flawed hero. I think that Jadzia was a very good person. I think Leeta was a good person.

 

[Farscape One]

My vote would go to O'Brien. He is a family man, and he always was a decent man. Can't remember the exact wording, but his words from "TRIBUNAL"...

"I'm no angel. But I live every day trying to be the best person I can be so my daughter can have a father she can be proud of."

Not saying Sisko wasn't a family man or a decent one, because he certainly was both, but Sisko made more questionable choices than O'Brien.

And I think at the end of the day, a good person is one who does things just to be a good person, and for my money, O'Brien fits the bill.

 

[Mojochi]

Wow, Trill are something else haha! I’m not sure I can wrap my head around it.

I think that must have been the point lol. Has there ever been a more deliberately vague & ill-defined species in all of Star Trek?

As for love, Odan on TNG actually maintained feelings for Beverly through two hosts... Riker & the final recipient. Yup, it's definitely not as cut and dry other characters

Anywhhooo… What does everyone think of Keiko? I mean has she ever really exhibited poor character? I mean people tend to not like her, I've noticed. I'm no expert on how the O'Briens' marriage played out. Was she really that bad of a wife for people to dislike her so much, or was it just that the character was... meh, & viewers didn't want to be annoyed?

 

[kkt]

A big part of what I like about DS9 is that the characters are so flawed, yet the viewer can't help but root for them.

I don't find Odo to be well-rounded at all and I view him as more of a flawed hero. I think that Jadzia was a very good person. I think Leeta was a good person.

I dunno. Leeta was barely a character. Her only role was Rom's love interest. Did she have family or friends who weren't on the station? What did she do during the occupation? A poorly developed character, at least by DS9 standards.

 

[Artoo Atari]

... And I think at the end of the day, a good person is one who does things just to be a good person, and for my money, O'Brien fits the bill.

Agreed. I immediately thought of Miles as the "best person." Just a working Joe simply trying to do the right thing in the midst of extraordinary circumstances.

Plus, one can only watch so many of those semi-frequent "O'Brien Must Suffer" stories before feeling some sympathy for the poor chap.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

In a way this comes down to debating to what constitutes a 'good person'.

Who saved the most lives? Garak. But in arguably very immoral ways.
Who is least emotionally capable of harming another person? Aside from The Nagus in season 1, Rom.
Who is most emotionally driven to protect people? Bashir, but maybe he has the mitigating motive of narcisissm. He did, however, cure a disease that was wiping out his mortal enemy.
Who had the most reason to be hateful but still shows compassion? Kira.
Who lived with the most pain in order to do what he believed was right? Odo. And comes in second in the life saving contest.

I guess I might have to go with Odo, just based on the fact that every single day he spent away from the Founders was painful for him.

 

[Mojochi]

Who saved the most lives? Garak. But in arguably very immoral ways.

Who is most emotionally driven to protect people? Bashir, but maybe he has the mitigating motive of narcisissm. He did, however, cure a disease that was wiping out his mortal enemy.

Garak is a solid reason why IMHO, saving the most lives need not necessarily equate to being the best person, just the best benefit to people on a large scale, though that is a very fine discrepancy

Who had the most reason to be hateful but still shows compassion? Kira.

The most reason to be hateful to a certain group of people maybe. Weigh that against the compassion she has for them, I guess... but apart from that... that's really just one aspect of a person's character

Who is least emotionally capable of harming another person? Aside from The Nagus in season 1, Rom.

I think that's why I was drawn to him. Benevolence or benignness.

Who lived with the most pain in order to do what he believed was right? Odo.

And that's the other way to go for me. I think my battle to decide what makes a better person predominantly falls somewhere between benevolence, & sacrifice.

It gets mighty sticky though, when you consider the issue of sacrificing your principles & values FOR the benefit of people's lives, which can bring us back round to Garak, & even Sisko. What's more important, me being able to look myself in the mirror & see myself as a good person, or people's lives? THAT'S some profound sacrifice.

 

[Riker'sMailbox]

I dunno. Leeta was barely a character. Her only role was Rom's love interest. Did she have family or friends who weren't on the station? What did she do during the occupation? A poorly developed character, at least by DS9 standards.

I guess that is kind of my point. The only character with no obvious flaws was a minor character that we didn't really know. Truth be told, that is why I loved DS9 so much. I love me some Picard, but he was not all that realistic. Same goes for all TNG main characters, they were too good, too idealistic, too bound by honor and duty. TNG was black and white, DS9 is all shades of gray.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I guess that is kind of my point. The only character with no obvious flaws was a minor character that we didn't really know. Truth be told, that is why I loved DS9 so much. I love me some Picard, but he was not all that realistic. Same goes for all TNG main characters, they were too good, too idealistic, too bound by honor and duty. TNG was black and white, DS9 is all shades of gray.

Well, DS9 largely formed around the writers from TNG pushing back against the notion that humanity was evolved and lacked flaws. They were still mostly heroic, but with rougher edges. The humans were still mostly good. Even Sisko's biggest misstep is arguably dismissable because it is a matter of state rather than a matter of the soul.