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Spoilers The Handmaid's Tale (TV series)

The Nazis should be irrelevant to this, since the show isn't about them.

Serena is clearly guilty of helping to create Gilead, and she knew what the plans were to make it happen.
 
Is Serena joy any different than the spouse of a Nazi officer or government official? Were any of those spouses tried for war crimes?
She wasn't just some Hausfrau waiting for hubby to come home, she was often the voice and face of the movement, writing books and making speeches. So she bears some responsibility.
 
She wasn't just some Hausfrau waiting for hubby to come home, she was often the voice and face of the movement, writing books and making speeches. So she bears some responsibility.

Before or after the revolution against the US? And was her role in that enough to charge her of war crimes?

And where is the evidence? June is still in Gilead. June appears to be the Waterford's first handmaid, unless I'm missing one that is still alive.

The comparison to Nazi Germany is quite apt as a historical reference. Violent dictatorship that used slave labor. Some spouses of Nazi commanders had opportunities to mistreat and abuse plenty of Nazi prisoners used for domestic duties as well as some children of said undesirables who were placed in German homes and facilities for reduction purposes.

I would have used Confederate States of America spouses but women's rights and roles in the CSA were more limited than Nazi Germany.

Surely there are radical women in ISIS that are similar to Serena or Aunt Lydia. Maybe a more apt modern day comparison.

Now there is a woman guilty of war crimes by supporting the Gilead government. Aunt Lydia. Serena can claim that Gilead ignored her suggestions and was not like they are currently when she was an active member of the government. It is clear by the beating she legal has no active role, no voice in the government.
 
Before or after the revolution against the US? And was her role in that enough to charge her of war crimes?
Before and during the revolution.

And where is the evidence? June is still in Gilead. June appears to be the Waterford's first handmaid, unless I'm missing one that is still alive.
I"m sure the recordings of her speeches exist. As do the books. She doesn't have to pull a trigger to be complicit.
 
Before or after the revolution against the US? And was her role in that enough to charge her of war crimes?
Before.

And where is the evidence? June is still in Gilead. June appears to be the Waterford's first handmaid, unless I'm missing one that is still alive.
Did you miss the episode where they had the flashback of Rita finding the Waterfords' first Handmaid dead in her bedroom? She hanged herself after Fred took her to Jezebels'.

This is why Rita was so shocked to find June sleeping on the floor; she thought June had killed herself.

This is also why Naomi Putnam got her dig in: "Everybody knows what happened to your first Handmaid. Men don't change." So Serena went snooping in the library and found her cloak and June's dress.

Oh, and it's mentioned in the novel, too. So no, June isn't their first Handmaid, and the Waterfords aren't June's first assignment. We never get to know just which Commander was June's first, only that she didn't get pregnant in the allotted two years, so she was reassigned. Handmaids get three chances (6 years total) and if they don't get pregnant they're declared Unwomen and shipped off to the Colonies.
 
Not everything has to be exactly like the novel,
And yet as the series continues, there are still parts of the novel that are used. The part about "ladies in reduced circumstances" and June musing that at least she still has circumstances, for example. That's from the novel, just a few pages in (I have a copy of it handy).

Something that Obama allowed to still be the reason the border's not like it used to be pre-9/11 (the only policy of his I have a problem with)-that said, this list shows how amazing Obama was and what he accomplished that won't be equaled by Trump.
Did I ever say Obama was bad? He had a high approval rating here, and when he came for a state visit and addressed Parliament (something I guarantee Trump will never be invited to do), the MPs gave him the accolade of "Four More Years!". That's something said to indicate strong approval for party leaders and a wish that the leader in question will run again in the next election. Of course Obama isn't the leader of any Canadian political parties, and he couldn't run again. But he definitely had our respect and good will.

Those darn Canadian surrender-monkeys, they almost sold the farm.
No, they didn't. From beginning to end, the Canadian officials were crystal clear in indicating their contempt for the Waterfords, in everything they said, and through their body language.

I found it interesting that the man from the PMO (Prime Minister's Office) bore a superficial resemblance to Justin Trudeau, but when you're greeted by someone from the PMO it doesn't mean it's anyone who is necessarily that important - just someone who's delegated to carry out certain tasks and report back. There's no way the Prime Minister or his senior cabinet ministers would ever meet with the Waterfords or any other Gilead official.

Giving Serena that itinerary of pictures was priceless! I wonder if she really thought she would be allowed to read.

Interesting that the Commander speaks French.

How Waterford could talk about tourism with a straight face I don't know, but there is a scene in the novel where Offred and Ofglen are out shopping and they encounter a group of Japanese tourists.

Is smoking allowed in bars in the U.S.? It isn't anymore in a lot of Canadian cities, so that scene was just bizarre. If that American guy had been in Canada for any length of time he'd have known that. It's not the establishment that makes the rules, it's actually a matter of laws.

It wasn't shown, but I have to wonder if the Waterfords were given a room with two beds or just one... since apparently a wife sleeping with a husband is considered immoral if they're not trying for a baby.

As to the negotiations... remember, it was Waterford who claimed the talks were going well. Whether he told the truth is another story.

One missed opportunity in the final dialogue between the Canadian officials and the Waterfords was when Serena told the Canadian woman, "Go in grace." If I'd been the Canadian woman, my reply would have been "Go to hell." But of course that wouldn't have been the diplomatic thing to say.

As for that swarming on the way to the airport... Now Serena knows her husband hasn't only been unfaithful with June and their previous handmaid.

"I would never, ever allow anything to happen to a baby."

Those are the first genuine words Aunt Lydia has spoken this whole series. I mean, I do think she truly believes all of the insane, awful bullshit has said since day one, but this time it's different. It was said with honesty. It was said with conviction. It was said with compassion. Between that moment and what she said about being a godmother a few moments later demonstrated that June made a real connection with Aunt Lydia and the truth was finally spoken between them. I don't hold any illusions this will change Aunt Lydia in the greater scheme of things, but it's nice to see some deeper nuance to her character.
Agreed, but what jumps out is that Aunt Lydia said, "It wasn't my fault."

That's significant, given all the blame she puts on the handmaids, and how the way they're trained is intended to make them distrust each other and blame each other if something goes wrong. It's Janine's fault for her teenage pregnancy, it's June's fault that Alma was hauled into the kitchen and burned.

I wonder if Aunt Lydia was blamed for her sister's baby's death, and if it was unfairly put on her, that's why she seems to enjoy this "blame" thing with the handmaids?

Now I have a question... where was the guard when the Waterfords came home? I didn't notice him there. And just how far is this flirtation going between him and Eden? Was she alone in the apartment when he looked up and saw someone in the window?

Seriously, Rita needs to set some mouse traps to keep Eden out of everything. Or set out something tempting, like sugar so Eden will steal it, make something with it, and it's not sugar but salt. Or maybe let slip where the alcohol is kept, and she'll turn up drunk.

Maybe Serena should teach Eden to knit. Then she'll have the fun of dealing with the brat when she steals Serena's yarn.

Some YouTube comments are just ridiculous, being all boo-hoo over Eden, and how mean Nick is. Well, on the one hand he's being stupid by not showing her a little bit of attention. He's missing the usual social cues, but on the other hand, I have to respect him for not lying to her. The truth is that he won't miss her, and is probably relieved to be away from her for a few days.
 
Is smoking allowed in bars in the U.S.? It isn't anymore in a lot of Canadian cities, so that scene was just bizarre. If that American guy had been in Canada for any length of time he'd have known that. It's not the establishment that makes the rules, it's actually a matter of laws.

It wasn't shown, but I have to wonder if the Waterfords were given a room with two beds or just one... since apparently a wife sleeping with a husband is considered immoral if they're not trying for a baby.


One missed opportunity in the final dialogue between the Canadian officials and the Waterfords was when Serena told the Canadian woman, "Go in grace." If I'd been the Canadian woman, my reply would have been "Go to hell." But of course that wouldn't have been the diplomatic thing to say.

Smoking in public is state regulated. It appears from a quick Google search Alaska has no public smoking ban.

I don't know if it is illegal for husbands and wives to sleep together in Gilead. That is one of the questions we have. Jezebels exists so commanders can relieve sexual tension but is the Waterford's situation unique to themselves and her injury? Is sex only for procreation?

Likewise with Moira not Ruby. I'm not sure if Serena picked up on it. I know I wondered if she did.
 
She wasn't just some Hausfrau waiting for hubby to come home, she was often the voice and face of the movement, writing books and making speeches. So she bears some responsibility.

As I sad earlier, in the novel she was mentioned by Offred as being a singer in the choir of one of the Christian fundamentalist churches that joined together to create Gilead, in addition to what you mentioned; if that's not the face of the movement, I don't know what is.
 
Smoking in public is state regulated. It appears from a quick Google search Alaska has no public smoking ban.

I don't know if it is illegal for husbands and wives to sleep together in Gilead. That is one of the questions we have. Jezebels exists so commanders can relieve sexual tension but is the Waterford's situation unique to themselves and her injury? Is sex only for procreation?

Likewise with Moira not Ruby. I'm not sure if Serena picked up on it. I know I wondered if she did.
Thanks for the explanation about smoking. It's been so long since smoking was allowed inside public buildings here (buildings open to the public, to be precise, which includes restaurants and bars), it was just really bizarre to see a situation like that.

There's a difference between illegal and immoral. Fred considers it immoral for Serena to make any sexual advances toward him, and to actually sleep together would be even worse. I'm wondering if all the Commanders feel this way, if there's some law that Commanders and Wives can't sleep together. If so, I'd hope that at least some of them would bend the rules... keeping in mind that they always have to wonder if the Marthas are just servants or are really spies.

It used to be expected that aristocratic couples would have separate bedrooms; that's how it was for millennia among the royalty and upper aristocracy. To this day Queen Elizabeth and Prince Phillip have separate bedrooms. But it's not like they never visited each other.

It seems that even visiting the spouse's bedroom is forbidden among the Commander/Wife caste in Gilead, and the Econo class are expected to use special sheets so they don't enjoy themselves. Only the Commanders are allowed to enjoy sex... at an illegal brothel, where the women are slaves.

So it appears that officially, sex is only for procreation, and that enjoying it is immoral at best, illegal at worst. Jezebel's isn't a place where all the Commanders go, or approve of. But it does still have the official trappings; the Jezebel women are controlled by Aunts, and the cooking and cleaning are done by Marthas.


There are a couple more things that occurred to me after my last post.

First, Serena is the wife of a foreign dignitary. So why is she allowed to wander around the hotel alone? Even if the Canadians wanted to give her (themselves, really) some space to not be constantly attended, I'm surprised that Waterford wouldn't have insisted that she be accompanied, or at least watched, in case she tried to make a run for it. I wonder if she's going to tell him about the offer of escape to Hawaii... probably not, if she's smart. Or maybe she could hold that back for the next time he rants about her loyalty and sinfulness: "I could have escaped, but I didn't!".

Next point: One of the guardians taking June and Janine for a walk referred to Janine as "UnWoman."

That's bullshit. One of the points stressed in the novel is that once a Handmaid bears a healthy child, she can never be called an UnWoman. Baby Angela was a shredder in the novel (according to Ofglen), but so far in the TV series she's still alive and healthy. The only reason she was sick was due to neglect.

I've seen the second promo for the next episode. It's pretty horrific.
 
How much strain on credulity is it that Gilead controls the 48 contiguous states?

Does Gilead control all of them? Are there areas that are more lax than others?

It is clear from the references above, and the US flag depicted in the series as having missing /outlined stars, that the US only consists of 2 states. Or is it clear? If the remaining states are not all part of Gilead, and yet not part of the US, what are they?

On fan made maps I've seen references to Mayday controlling territory. From the show I don't get that Mayday is anything more than a resistance group, definitely not a de facto government
 
I don't know if it is illegal for husbands and wives to sleep together in Gilead. That is one of the questions we have. Jezebels exists so commanders can relieve sexual tension but is the Waterford's situation unique to themselves and her injury? Is sex only for procreation?

There's a difference between illegal and immoral. Fred considers it immoral for Serena to make any sexual advances toward him, and to actually sleep together would be even worse. I'm wondering if all the Commanders feel this way, if there's some law that Commanders and Wives can't sleep together. If so, I'd hope that at least some of them would bend the rules... keeping in mind that they always have to wonder if the Marthas are just servants or are really spies.

For the life of me, I can think of no reason the Commanders would create a law making it difficult to sleep with their own wives. It would be very uncharacteristic for them to restrict their own actions. Presumably at least some of them are actually still attracted to their wives and would want to have sex with them for enjoyment.
 
Maybe they just think they need to save 100% of the Blessed Seed for the woman that has a chance to conceive? Doesn’t explain the Other outlet, though...
 
How much strain on credulity is it that Gilead controls the 48 contiguous states?

Does Gilead control all of them? Are there areas that are more lax than others?

It is clear from the references above, and the US flag depicted in the series as having missing /outlined stars, that the US only consists of 2 states. Or is it clear? If the remaining states are not all part of Gilead, and yet not part of the US, what are they?

On fan made maps I've seen references to Mayday controlling territory. From the show I don't get that Mayday is anything more than a resistance group, definitely not a de facto government
In the TV series, the American government controls only Alaska and Hawaii, which makes sense because they were too far away for the Sons of Jacob to get at. I am wondering if it's just because there weren't enough of them infiltrated there, to take over, or if they tried and failed.

Obviously somebody used nukes against parts of the U.S., and then decided to send in the UnWomen to clean it up (like shoveling radiation-contaminated dirt into bags will ever make that area safe again).

However... is it possible that due to the fighting, there weren't enough people to stay on their jobs at any nuclear power plants that may have existed in those areas, and the radiation is due to a meltdown, and not because of a bomb being used? I have no idea if/where nuclear power plants would be used in the U.S., but since this is an alternate history it's open for speculation.

The other states no longer exist as anything like functional governments or societies. The novel states that there are pockets of resistance here and there, and we know from both the novel and the TV series that there's a "front" where fighting is still going on. So while Gilead isn't in 100% control, neither is anyone else. And there are wide swathes of the former U.S. that are uninhabitable (gotta wonder how much contamination there was in Canada, since radiation and other environmental toxins don't respect national boundaries).

The movie's ending shows Kate (Offred's real name in the movie), pregnant with Nick's baby, living in a trailer "in the mountains held by the rebels". So while Mayday does hold territory, I don't think it's got anything like a central government. If it did, it would be too easy for Gilead to just roll in and kill everyone. There used to be a YouTube clip of this scene, but I can't find it now.

For the life of me, I can think of no reason the Commanders would create a law making it difficult to sleep with their own wives. It would be very uncharacteristic for them to restrict their own actions. Presumably at least some of them are actually still attracted to their wives and would want to have sex with them for enjoyment.
It doesn't make any sense, but since when does anything in this series make sense? They want healthy children, yet the stress put on the Handmaids, the beatings, the subjection of the Handmaids to such bleak boredom, the way they're cut off from all meaningful human interaction... and the way that baby Angela nearly died of neglect and nobody understood that other than June and Janine... is just mindboggling.

At least in the novel, the Marthas (there were two of them) would occasionally let Offred help in the kitchen, and she could have a conversation with them. Not about anything important, mind, but it was still human interaction that isn't there in the TV series.

Has anyone wondered why there are times when June talks so slowly, and why she takes longer to reply to questions? It's annoying, but there's a reason. In the book it's stressed how much empty time the Handmaids have. They live lives that were intentionally designed to be boring, presumably so they would spend that time praying for a baby. But the reality is that some of them end up going nuts, or like June, they stretch every action and word out, to help fill that empty time. So June speaks slowly, walks slowly, and so on.

Maybe they just think they need to save 100% of the Blessed Seed for the woman that has a chance to conceive? Doesn’t explain the Other outlet, though...
True. And consider this: Pregnancy tests are a black market item at Jezebel's. So some of the Jezebel women are fertile (like Moira). Can't have a Jezebel getting pregnant, though I have to wonder what happens if/when one of them does? It's not like it's authorized; she's not a Handmaid, and officially Jezebel's doesn't even exist. So what happens to that baby?

I'm guessing that the woman will be allowed to have it, the baby will be placed in the same "child bank"/orphanage of kids taken from other captured fertile women, to be placed with loyal Econo couples, and the woman will be sent to the Colonies.
 
And just like that, the show became all the more relevant with today's events. Watching the Guardian rip Hannah out of June's arms not once, but twice was so painfully gods awful. When I heard Hannah's tears, I heard the tears of the immigrant children from the ProPublica recording. Fuck. Fuck. Fuck.

Going into that scene, I had this terrible fear that Hannah wouldn't even remember June and for a few moments, it looked like she didn't and I was already losing my mind. But the fact that she did remember June made the scene even worse, especially when that small, so very understandable resentment came out. "Why didn't you try harder?" :wah:

By the end of the scene, Hannah cautiously came out of the Gilead-enforced shell and showed the reciprocated love that June ached to feel again. I loved how June kept messing with the strings Hannah's coat/frock/whatever, just to keep her hands busy and so she wouldn't completely lose her godsdamn mind. The Guardian said ten minutes, but June only got ten (of course I timed it), but no matter the time limit, June would not have enough time for reunion with her daughter.

How fucking cruel to have Hannah ripped from June all over again? Gods. I'm going to be crying for awhile.

As if that wasn't enough, we got two rapes. One ceremoniously and one so very not (as if that's suppose to make a difference).

Emily's rape was cold and hard and revolting as ever before. She (and the audience) at least got the joy of seeing Roy (I swear, I thought his wife said Rory for a moment) collapsing for whatever reason and then Emily gave a nice swift kick in the dick. That was fucking cathartic.

This might have been me, but when Emily (and later June) described being completely detached and tried to focus her mind elsewhere, I was greatly reminded of the recent Patrick Melrose mini-series with Benedict Cumberbatch.
Specifically how young Patrick focused on the gecko on the wall as his father molested him.

June's rape was far worse, far more grotesque, so far beyond anything this show has ever done. Enslaving and raping these women, ceremoniously or not, was already horrific, but then the Commander and Serena Joy forcibly raped June as means to induce labor "naturally" is so fucking vile and sickening and repulsive that I'm shocked I didn't vomit while I watched it happen.

Whatever little sympathy I had for Serena Joy in the past few episodes evaporated in an instance and it will never, ever return. She deserves equal punishment for all the crimes the Commander has committed.

This thought only just occurred to me, in the wake of all of the other shit, but perhaps the reason Nick was scooped up at the house was because of Eden and not such an odd coincidence as it appeared to be? Either way, Nick is screwed.

One aside I forgot to mention: I loved how the premature celebration among the men was a not-so overt allusion to premature ejaculation. :lol:
 
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And just like that, the show became all the more relevant with today's events. Watching the Guardian rip Hannah out of June's arms not once, but twice was so painfully gods awful. When I heard Hannah's tears, I heard the tears of the immigrant children from the ProPublica recording. Fuck. Fuck. Fuck.

Holy sh!t, you got that right on the nose. Talk about abso-frakkin-tasmic-lutely PRESCIENT, to the very DAY that it's relevant! I swear the showrunners have discovered time travel and they're either trolling us or trying to send us a warning...,

The evil that is the sadistic Trum-- er, the Waterford family must eventually meet their comeuppance.
 
Since I don't mind spoilers (won't be able to see this until Sunday), was it the same actress who played Hannah before?

In other words, even though this kid is supposed to be about 10-11 by now, does she still look 5-6?
 
Since I don't mind spoilers (won't be able to see this until Sunday), was it the same actress who played Hannah before?

In other words, even though this kid is supposed to be about 10-11 by now, does she still look 5-6?
I don't think the time between June being taken and the present is supposed to be that long, maybe two or three years at the most.
 
I don't think the time between June being taken and the present is supposed to be that long, maybe two or three years at the most.
Nope.

She's five when they're captured. On one of Offred's walks with Ofglen, she says Hannah would be 8 by that time.

Remember, there was a training period at the Red Center that would have taken several months and would have included processing the women (in the novel it's stated that Offred was kept drugged and in some kind of hospital at first before she ever saw the Red Center), settling them into the Red Center, going through the process of brainwashing them to reject the past world and accept the thinkings of Gilead, teaching them the various ceremonies and lines they're supposed to say, and in which situations, teaching them what is thought to be suitable for women whose purpose is to get pregnant and deliver a healthy baby, and so on.

That's not going to happen in a week. Months, more like. And it's stated in the novel that the Commander (who isn't named; he only gets a name in the TV show) is Offred's third placement. In the TV show he's her second. Each placement, assuming it doesn't result in pregnancy, is two years. A Handmaid gets three placements of two years each, to produce a baby, and if she doesn't, she's declared barren, UnWoman, and sent to the Colonies.

That's in the novel, and most of this information has made it into the TV show. When Serena tells June, "Your time's running out" it's because June has been there for over a year, and that's why Serena arranges for her to have sex with Nick and hopefully get pregnant that way.

Also keep in mind that Janine and June are from the same "graduating class" at the Red Center. At the time when June is discussing Hannah's age, Janine is already several months pregnant, and after the birth she stays on at the Putnams' for awhile until the baby is weaned. So that's at least another 4 months (according to the sources I've googled that say weaning shouldn't take place until at least 4-6 months).

There's a 92-day gap of time when June is on the run, from the time she escapes the hospital to the time she's returned to Serena. That's 3 months. It's a little hard to judge time in the second season as it looks like it's winter in just about every damn episode, or maybe fall. Or maybe climate change has hit and Gilead just gets a lot of snow now, no matter what time of year.

So doing the approximate math, we've got about 6 months at the Red Center being trained/brainwashed, the first 2-year placement, Janine is several months' pregnant at the time June tells Emily that Hanna would be 8, which is 3 years older than she was in S1E1, the conclusion of Janine's pregnancy and the at least 4 months afterward, until we find out June's pregnant.

Then June escapes and is on the run for 3 months. By this time she's been with the Waterfords for more than the allotted two years.

So there is no way that Hannah should only be 3 years older, and unless the Hannah-actress has been growing substantially between filming the first and second seasons, they need an older kid to play her.
 
Whatever little sympathy I had for Serena Joy up from the past few episodes evaporated in an instance and it will never, ever return.

Indeed. It's interesting they teased us with a path to redemption over the past couple of episodes then ... this. I know, she's been party to the ceremonial rapes from the get go, but as you say, this rape (which was Serena's idea) was brutal. This grotesque violation was motivated solely to hurry the pregnancy along so they can have "their" child and kick June out. Fuuuck. Fred and Serena are well beyond redemption, so far as I'm concerned. Were they (Serena in particular) ever redeemable in the first place? Probably not. If Serena had flipped when she had the opportunity last week and did what she could to help destroy the twisted Gilead regime, then maybe.

Serena Waterford - you truly are a piece of shit.
 
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