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I'm involved in conversations with several people at a time here. Sometimes they overlap and sometimes they're separate.
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Spoilers The Handmaid's Tale (TV series)
- Thread starter Skipper
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Your rudeness is not required.
I thought it was pretty obvious that Little America was just a neighborhood in Toronto where a bunch of refugees have all gathered. There are probably Little Americas in every major city in Canada.
This is probably the most likeliest explanation. Everyone wants to follow the follow the rules until it hurts someone close to themselves.
That was my take away as well.
Now that I've actually had the chance to see this episode...
Part of the funeral service for the Handmaids was co-opted from the Act of Remembrance used in Commonwealth countries on Remembrance Day. It's disgusting to hear Aunt Lydia mouthing those words, although in her twisted way I suppose she does think of the Handmaids as soldiers, whose mission is to get pregnant and produce babies.
But this only makes her pattern of horrific punishments and prattling of wanting the Handmaids to have a world without violence even more hypocritical.
I have to ask: Where did Moira get the photo of herself and Odette? She couldn't possibly have been allowed to keep it all these years. Handmaids aren't allowed to keep anything from their former lives.
Part of the funeral service for the Handmaids was co-opted from the Act of Remembrance used in Commonwealth countries on Remembrance Day. It's disgusting to hear Aunt Lydia mouthing those words, although in her twisted way I suppose she does think of the Handmaids as soldiers, whose mission is to get pregnant and produce babies.
But this only makes her pattern of horrific punishments and prattling of wanting the Handmaids to have a world without violence even more hypocritical.
I have to ask: Where did Moira get the photo of herself and Odette? She couldn't possibly have been allowed to keep it all these years. Handmaids aren't allowed to keep anything from their former lives.
The photos might still exist in social media that she can now access outside Giliad.
I'm getting the impression they are implying June will stay with the Waterford's after she delivers the baby. This is in sharp contrast to what was depicted last season where Janine (I think) was being reassigned after she gave birth to her baby. Spread the fertile women around so more commanders can have offspring.
Which brings me to another observation. All handmaids are fertile but not all fertile women are handmaids. It's possible that some commanders wives can be fertile and have their own children. The bread truck driver that helped June - his wife was not a handmaid but became one out of punishment for her husband helping June. Apparently it's acceptable for a "normal" couple to remain such providing they both are true believers to this new religion/government.
In 2015 US fertility rate was 1.84 births per woman. In this future where fertility rates dropped 60%, the birth rate would be 0.73 births per woman.
I think you misunderstand what I was wanting an alternative for. This is a discussion board. I suggested an idea and that idea was shot do. OK, in the spirit of discussion, give me an alternative interpretation to what I saw. Don't just rip my suggestion without giving me something in it's place. Instead it was as if I riled every patriotic Canadian pride and I was being flogged for even thinking such a horrible thought. Shame on me. Beat me with a wet noodle.
A discussion is more than just ripping other peoples ideas, no matter how stupid they are. Discussion is an interchange of ideas. An interchange of ideas is an alternative of ideas.
Which brings me to another observation. All handmaids are fertile but not all fertile women are handmaids. It's possible that some commanders wives can be fertile and have their own children. The bread truck driver that helped June - his wife was not a handmaid but became one out of punishment for her husband helping June. Apparently it's acceptable for a "normal" couple to remain such providing they both are true believers to this new religion/government.
In 2015 US fertility rate was 1.84 births per woman. In this future where fertility rates dropped 60%, the birth rate would be 0.73 births per woman.
I think you misunderstand what I was wanting an alternative for. This is a discussion board. I suggested an idea and that idea was shot do. OK, in the spirit of discussion, give me an alternative interpretation to what I saw. Don't just rip my suggestion without giving me something in it's place. Instead it was as if I riled every patriotic Canadian pride and I was being flogged for even thinking such a horrible thought. Shame on me. Beat me with a wet noodle.
A discussion is more than just ripping other peoples ideas, no matter how stupid they are. Discussion is an interchange of ideas. An interchange of ideas is an alternative of ideas.
And now the truth is out in the open. It was never about bearing children. It was always about obeying men.
All those who were forced into slavery as Handmaids and Marthas and whatever else knew this truth. And now so does Serena Joy. Perhaps before she knew it empirically, but now she knows the cold hard truth first hand. Thus the season-long path to make Serena Joy sympathetic has reached a vital fork in the road: Will she continue to rebel or will she become subservient, not as God has intended, but as the men of Gilead have intended?
I worried when Janine requested to kiss Charlotte goodbye that a "miracle" would occur and she would recover from her mysterious malaise. I suppose there have been real-life cases of mothers nurturing their children which resulted in those children to recover from illnesses after medicine has failed, but the show needs to tread very carefully while broaching this subject. Of course, Lydia and the Putnams and everyone else will treat this moment as God's divine will, but there needs to be a real, concrete reason for Charlotte's recovery and I hope it's not left entirely ambiguous.
Otherwise, the Charlotte/Janine storyline in this episode was beautifully depicted and I wept tears for Janine every step of the way. However, I couldn't help but notice that while Janine, Serena Joy, and even Lydia cried as Janine embraced Charlotte, June's face remained strikingly dry. This felt like an echo to both Janine's accusation that June "[sounds] just like one of them" and June's musing what Emily would think of June if Emily knew that June had helped Serena Joy with the commander's paperwork to oppress Handmaids. Has June become cold and complacent to the will of Gilead for her own survival? Has she realized this truth about herself and that's why she broke down and cried after she apologized to Fred for her role in helping Serena Joy?
All those who were forced into slavery as Handmaids and Marthas and whatever else knew this truth. And now so does Serena Joy. Perhaps before she knew it empirically, but now she knows the cold hard truth first hand. Thus the season-long path to make Serena Joy sympathetic has reached a vital fork in the road: Will she continue to rebel or will she become subservient, not as God has intended, but as the men of Gilead have intended?
I worried when Janine requested to kiss Charlotte goodbye that a "miracle" would occur and she would recover from her mysterious malaise. I suppose there have been real-life cases of mothers nurturing their children which resulted in those children to recover from illnesses after medicine has failed, but the show needs to tread very carefully while broaching this subject. Of course, Lydia and the Putnams and everyone else will treat this moment as God's divine will, but there needs to be a real, concrete reason for Charlotte's recovery and I hope it's not left entirely ambiguous.
Otherwise, the Charlotte/Janine storyline in this episode was beautifully depicted and I wept tears for Janine every step of the way. However, I couldn't help but notice that while Janine, Serena Joy, and even Lydia cried as Janine embraced Charlotte, June's face remained strikingly dry. This felt like an echo to both Janine's accusation that June "[sounds] just like one of them" and June's musing what Emily would think of June if Emily knew that June had helped Serena Joy with the commander's paperwork to oppress Handmaids. Has June become cold and complacent to the will of Gilead for her own survival? Has she realized this truth about herself and that's why she broke down and cried after she apologized to Fred for her role in helping Serena Joy?
When you quote someone you should include the link to the post you're quoting, or at least put "@" in front of the poster's name. That's courtesy to both the quoted person and anyone else following the conversation.
Janine stayed with the Putnams while she was nursing her baby. It's not clear how long this went on, but I would estimate months, not weeks.
This does bring up the question of whether or not it's socially acceptable at this point for a Commander's Wife to get pregnant. Being assigned a handmaid is a sign of high status, and it's not clear so far if any Commander/Wife teams who were both healthy have become parents without using a handmaid. If Serena hadn't been shot pre-Gilead, would she have been able to become pregnant? We don't know, and we also don't know if the Commander is sterile or just really unlucky with his handmaids.
Thank you for revealing that this is a discussion board. I was previously unaware of that, so now I am enlightened. It's only taken 11 years, but now I know.
Some groups with an international membership sometimes create a mashed-up symbol or image to commemorate the event or spirit of cooperation. I've seen other mashups of the Canadian and American flags, and while I find them rather displeasing to look at, if they're pleasing to the people who create them, whatever floats their boat (as the saying goes).
You went beyond that, though, and suggested that Canada might create a province for the American refugees. A PROVINCE. Do you have any idea just how ludicrous that is? How over-the-top?
I asked before: If the positions were reversed, would the American government create a new STATE in the middle of one of their major cities, just for Canadian refugees? This would mean giving the people who live there full rights to participate in that country's political system, economic system, social services (such as they exist in the U.S.), and so on. Somehow I doubt the Americans would do that. So why should we?
Sorry, but as I said: Canada doesn't mind helping our neighbors, and we've done so on numerous occasions (saving some American diplomats in Iran, helping the Americans in the Middle East - thanks for the friendly fire deaths, btw -, taking in stranded air travelers on 9/11 - thank your politicians and others, btw, for repeating the bullshit that the hijackers got to your country via Canada, when they didn't, etc.). At least the passengers themselves were grateful, as well as a lot of non-politicians.
But suggesting that we would create a whole new province in the middle of Toronto is to suggest performing major political surgery on our country (a new province would mean altering Parliament and the Senate as well), to benefit a bunch of refugees, most of whom would just go back once Gilead fell, regardless of citizenship. RL has many Canadians of Convenience, and I don't have a high opinion of them. They want the benefits of citizenship but none of the responsibilities or duties.
If, within the universe of The Handmaid's Tale, Canada were to create a new province within the city of Toronto for the sole benefit of the American refugees, this would lead to some of them becoming citizens. If these citizens choose to regard Canada as their new home and become productive citizens, great. That's how a lot of refugees do things, and it adds to our country's diversity. That's a good thing.
But if they only acquire citizenship for the benefits and intend to go back to their former country (while retaining Canadian citizenship and its benefits - such as health care and pensions) and never intended to take on any of the duties or responsibilities of citizenship here, that makes them "Canadians of Convenience". Such people are generally not well thought of here.
Yes, I'm aware that The Handmaid's Tale is fiction. But there's an awful lot of things in it that could actually happen, and it brings up RL concerns, based on past experience and what is plausible in the near-future. We're already taking in thousands of refugees/asylum seekers who cross our border illegally from the U.S. because they're afraid of Trump and his anti-Muslim orders. They don't trust your government and would rather take the slim chance they have to stay in Canada, even if it means risking frostbite and dying of hypothermia (there have been lost fingers and toes and at least one woman died of hypothermia; her body was found in a ditch in the spring - it was a needless tragedy in her case, as she actually did have sufficient documentation to cross legally).
And no, we're not creating new provinces or new anything else for these people, other than detention facilities. Those that don't pass the screening for legitimate refugee status are detained and will be sent back to their original countries.
I just don't see why there has to be any alternate version other than these flags/pennants/whatever being a gesture of support. It certainly doesn't mean anything like what has been suggested, like the nonsense of Canada creating an entire new province to benefit a group of refugees. Even given the in-universe conditions of THT, I can't imagine such a thing happening.
OK, time for honesty here. I enjoy the show as a "what if?" alternate universe scenario, but after tonight's episode I have to call major bullshit. There's no way this could EVER happen. No switch from present day USA society to Gilead is plausible. Just not going to happen. Fuck, it's like I'm watching Thundarr the Barbarian -- OK, yeah, a rogue planet passing through the solar system will never actually split the moon in two and wreak havok on Earth, but... IF that happened, what next????
Women will never acquiesce to become subserviant to fucking moronic stupid men who are "acting in the interests of God". The way Serena responds to Fred totally takes me out of the show, considering they were co-conspirators going into the revolution.
Anyway, whatever. It's a great show to watch. But as a believable reality? Not buying it.
Women will never acquiesce to become subserviant to fucking moronic stupid men who are "acting in the interests of God". The way Serena responds to Fred totally takes me out of the show, considering they were co-conspirators going into the revolution.
Anyway, whatever. It's a great show to watch. But as a believable reality? Not buying it.
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They might if the alternative for them is death or mutilation.
The revolution brought about by the Waterfords significantly altered the power structures in society, and Fred exercising his power under this new structure.
(Granted, these changes were apparently much more far-reaching than it was originally intended on Serena's part... but then again, she was shut out of the process at a certain junction.)
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But that's my point: it's such an extreme and ridiculous premise that it's simply not believable. Yes, there are societies on Earth that are extremely repressive toward women, but they have always been that way. They weren't democracies with equal rights for all, then one day the men decided "Hey -- I'll bet God really wants us to subjugate our women and treat them like dirt."
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The show is slowly revealing the situation that led to Gilead. I'm confident the writers can concoct a scenario that is at least plausible. Besides, look at what happened in Iran and Afghanistan, the same kind of reverse cultural shift.
I have a couple of other questions.
1. I know that June burned some of the Mayday letters, but was it more than just a few? That stack of letters was huge at first, but now it isn't.
2. It just occurred to me to wonder where Rita sleeps. It's not upstairs, so maybe she has a room in the basement (assuming that house has a basement)?
Some possible reasons for why June broke down and cried. First, it's an outlet after the stress of worrying about the baby. June is the only one who cared about Janine's role as Charlotte's mother, and she had to hold herself together in order to convince Serena and Aunt Lydia to allow Janine to see the baby. Of all the main characters involved in this, I think June is the only one who would understand the concept of "Failure to Thrive" and that babies actually need human touch and contact to be healthy.
Another possibility is that she and Serena were allies for a short time. For that brief time, they didn't have to spend their energies hating each other and trying to assert whatever power or resistance to each other. Now that's all gone, and Serena has been put in her place - which in turn includes putting June back in her place.
They were never friends, but Serena told June some personal things that no Wife would ordinarily tell a Handmaid... such as the fact that she actually hates knitting (are any other handicrafts allowed to the Wives, like crocheting? We know that sewing is allowed to the Econowives when Eden announces she's going to make curtains).
Now June has nobody to share confidences with. She doesn't seem to have a shopping partner anymore, and is escorted everywhere by an Angel. She's lost Serena as any sort of outlet to have a normal conversation with, and she lost Nick when he had to marry Eden. Eden is a brainwashed idiot, so that leaves Rita... who I think likes June, but is usually too busy to chat and is mindful of her place and the risks of trusting people.
The Commander no longer trusts her, either. It's interesting that he seems to feel her biggest betrayal wasn't in trying to escape, but in helping Serena use his authority to issue orders in his name. June is fortunate that he chooses to regard her as "only following orders" and not as a willing accomplice.
1. I know that June burned some of the Mayday letters, but was it more than just a few? That stack of letters was huge at first, but now it isn't.
2. It just occurred to me to wonder where Rita sleeps. It's not upstairs, so maybe she has a room in the basement (assuming that house has a basement)?
Some possible reasons for why June broke down and cried. First, it's an outlet after the stress of worrying about the baby. June is the only one who cared about Janine's role as Charlotte's mother, and she had to hold herself together in order to convince Serena and Aunt Lydia to allow Janine to see the baby. Of all the main characters involved in this, I think June is the only one who would understand the concept of "Failure to Thrive" and that babies actually need human touch and contact to be healthy.
Another possibility is that she and Serena were allies for a short time. For that brief time, they didn't have to spend their energies hating each other and trying to assert whatever power or resistance to each other. Now that's all gone, and Serena has been put in her place - which in turn includes putting June back in her place.
They were never friends, but Serena told June some personal things that no Wife would ordinarily tell a Handmaid... such as the fact that she actually hates knitting (are any other handicrafts allowed to the Wives, like crocheting? We know that sewing is allowed to the Econowives when Eden announces she's going to make curtains).
Now June has nobody to share confidences with. She doesn't seem to have a shopping partner anymore, and is escorted everywhere by an Angel. She's lost Serena as any sort of outlet to have a normal conversation with, and she lost Nick when he had to marry Eden. Eden is a brainwashed idiot, so that leaves Rita... who I think likes June, but is usually too busy to chat and is mindful of her place and the risks of trusting people.
The Commander no longer trusts her, either. It's interesting that he seems to feel her biggest betrayal wasn't in trying to escape, but in helping Serena use his authority to issue orders in his name. June is fortunate that he chooses to regard her as "only following orders" and not as a willing accomplice.
Gilead would be too busy fighting the other breakaway states to be able to invade Canada, and the American refugees in Canada would most likely set up a influential voting bloc/SuperPAC that would influence the Canadian government to build up the military enough to repel an invasion by Gilead (lots of new tanks and fighter planes-maybe a new version of this one-plus new ships to deal with the Gilead fleet [if Gilead's got one]) and a network of hackers to destabilize whatever electronic networks Gilead has. Not everything has to be exactly like the novel, or have a depressing outcome in which Canada gets fucked militarily by the USA.
Something that Obama allowed to still be the reason the border's not like it used to be pre-9/11 (the only policy of his I have a problem with)-that said, this list shows how amazing Obama was and what he accomplished that won't be equaled by Trump.
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Simmer down, 'k?Gilead would be too busy fighting the other breakaway states to be able to invade Canada (and the American refugees in Canada would most likely set up a influential voting bloc/SuperPAC that would influence the Canadian government to build up the military enough to repel an invasion by Gilead (lots of new tanks and fighter planes-maybe a new version of this one-plus new ships to deal with the Gilead fleet [if Gilead's got one]) and a network of hackers to destabilize whatever electronic networks Gilead has. Not everything has to be exactly like the novel, or have a depressing outcome in which Canada gets fucked militarily by the USA.
First of all, I have no idea what a "SuperPAC" is.
Second of all, it's pointless to say that the American refugees could have a "voting bloc." Only Canadian citizens get to vote in Canada. That's RL and I doubt it would be any different in the TV show.
I grant you the hackers; that's not something that most people ever thought about in 1985. But I'm honestly baffled by the assumption on the part of some of the posters here that the American refugees would automatically receive the same rights as Canadian citizens from the get-go, that Canada would create a whole freaking new province just for them, in the middle of our largest city, and that somehow the refugees would wave their hands and lo! a brand new army complete with modern weapons and other things would appear.
Don't lecture me about the novel. I've read the novel at least a dozen times, and I know what's in it. I've seen the movie many times as well, and I know which parts of the TV show were lifted word for word from the movie, which parts are word for word from the novel, and which parts of the novel were in season 1 and which are (so far) in season 2.
The novel's ending is ambiguous, as we never learn to 100% certainty what happened to Offred. For that matter, we never even learn Offred's real name. It is never stated, by her or anyone else.
Simmer down, 'k?
You're the one being snarky, not I (and the Vulcan icon's meant to be a matter of fact indicator in a Vulcan way, not a snark thing.)
Political action committee (PAC)
Presumably, these Americans become Canadian citizens so that they can vote, or said 'PAC' is just a bunch of U.S. refugees that prevail upon the Canadian government to act, by writing letters to the Canadian government to be on its guard to not let an invasion by Gilead happen. Even so, as I said, the fact that Gilead's fighting with the rest of the former USA would keep it busy for a while.
Perhaps the Canadian government decided to not get stomped like in the 1810's and finally realized that a strong army's needed?
As for the other parts, I'll concede. But only for those parts.
Not all adaptations of a novel to movies or TV have to be exactly like the novel.
See what I said above.
Since this forum lacks several basic smileys that I normally use to indicate disapproval and oddly refuses to add any additional ones no matter how useful or Trek-appropriate they would be, the Vulcan will have to do. Look at the eyes and not the skin color and remember that Spock did sometimes raise an eyebrow to convey disapproval.
Okay.
Citizenship isn't granted here with a snap of the fingers. There are certain requirements to be met - some obviously couldn't be met by the Gilead refugees, and while some of those would probably be waived, others are problematic.
As we've seen in the show (I'm caught up now; Canadians don't get to see the episodes until several days after the Americans get them), Canada is already aware that they shouldn't just sit back and ignore the possibility that Gilead will want to invade. In RL there are parts of the border that run through people's houses and border guards on the alert for anyone who tries to enter either country illegally by entering through the back door but leaving through the front door, or vice-versa. There's part of the border that's marked by a row of flower pots.
Presumably in the TV show, Canada has taken steps to improve such situations.
Canada did not get stomped in the 1810s, because Canada wasn't a country until 1867. What happened in the 1810s (presumably you're thinking about what Trump said when he shot his ignorant mouth off to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau both in person and via Twitter this past week) is that the Americans tried to invade the region that would some day be part of Canada, thinking the British were occupied in Europe. But surprise! the British weren't that occupied, and they were around to not only defend their territory, but mounted a retaliatory action in 1814 when they burned the building that wasn't really the White House (it wasn't even white).Perhaps the Canadian government decided to not get stomped like in the 1810's and finally realized that a strong army's needed?
Funny how things get misconstrued over the years, isn't it? So no, Canada didn't burn down the White House, and while the Americans tried an invasion it ultimately didn't work.
What, specifically, are you conceding? You're a bit vague on this point.
I'm aware of that. There are significant differences. But there's an awful lot that's the same, word for word.
See what I said above.