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George Lucas's ideas for Episodes 7-9

Yeah I know the source, I read it cover to cover and am in the process of reading the one for Empire. Unless you have some damn good proof that both Lucas and Rinzler actively lied (to what end?) beyond "I don't like this idea on the face of it! *kicks toys out of pram*" then there's really nothing to your claim but hot air and hyperbole.

So anyway, once more for the chronically slow on the uptake: 1) midi-chlorians do *not* control the force, or are they they source of it. 2) *Every* living thing in the galaxy has them in their cells. 3) *Everyone* has the force. 4) The only variance is their degree of conscious control, just like any other talent. Sometimes it's an innate, but that's not a bar to anyone that perseveres and works at clearing their minds to connect with the force.

For those that still labour on the notion that just about anyone could be a Jedi, some basic maths: 10,000 Jedi out of a galaxy of over a million inhabited worlds is a vanishingly small percentage of the population. To do what even the average Jedi youngling can do would most likely take most other beings a lifetime of commitment and meditation to achieve. But they could still do it.

The Jedi are not the only ones that can use the force, they're just the most naturally gifted, the ones found and trained in infancy because they displayed a far above average natural affinity. Most likely because that's what produced the more consistently positive results and while certainly understandable from a practical standpoint (if you're going to invest a lifetime's worth of training in someone, best to be sure they have a strong potential right from the off) it is also quite probably the seed of their own downfall. They stopped listening to the force to tell them who would be the better candidates and started relying too much on midi-chlorian counts and standardised perception tests to pick the best candidate. Rigid thinking, moving to control rather than in sympathy with. In other words: the dark side.
 
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Yeah I know the source, I read it cover to cover and am in the process of reading the one for Empire. Unless you have some damn good proof that both Lucas and Rinzler actively lied (to what end?) beyond "I don't like this idea on the face of it! *kicks toys out of pram*" then there's really nothing to your claim but hot air and hyperbole.

You may wish to take a look at the quote from Rinzler himself on starwars.com, which I included a few posts ago. Again, these are Rinzler's own words regarding the book (bold and underlining added by me):

Rinzler said:
[Please note: While we were preparing the text for The Making of Star Wars, Lucas added a note to this passage about midi-chlorians, bringing his original words in line with his later thoughts and the events of the prequel trilogy.]

Source: https://www.starwars.com/news/so-what-the-heck-are-midi-chlorians

There's a misconception among readers that Lucas's notes quoted on page 353 of the book are proof that midi-chlorians were part of Lucas's original concept for Star Wars in the 1970s. However, in this starwars.com article, Rinzler quotes Lucas's actual original notes from the summer of 1977, which made no mention of midi-chlorians whatsoever; and Rinzler clearly says that the part about midi-chlorians was only added for this book.

I don't know how to make this any clearer. :shrug:

Kor
 
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or are they they source of it. 2) *Every* living thing in the galaxy has them in their cells. 3) *Everyone* has the force.

What is all this endless strawmanning meant to accomplish? Who disputed any of these things?

The point is that a high midichlorian count is the source of high Force sensitivity ( as claimed by Lucas ) as opposed to the other way around ( as claimed by the internet ).

"That extraordinarily high midi-chlorian count gave the boy a connection to the Force that even Jedi Masters on the order of Yoda might never achieve." ( TPM novelization )
 
It is canon still that high midichlorian counts means a stronger connection to the force, nothing has contradicted that yet since the new canon started.
 
It is canon still that high midichlorian counts means a stronger connection to the force, nothing has contradicted that yet since the new canon started.
it's certainly indicative, but I think the idea has always been that it's correlative, not necessarily causative. The point was that it's any easy test to gauge the force potential of an individual compared to others, but it's also a sign that the Jedi were already loosing their way by depending on such rigid and dogmatic methods.
 
it's certainly indicative, but I think the idea has always been that it's correlative, not necessarily causative. The point was that it's any easy test to gauge the force potential of an individual compared to others, but it's also a sign that the Jedi were already loosing their way by depending on such rigid and dogmatic methods.

I think Maz is a good example of how it should work for many, possibly all... Feels the Force, but can't really control it like a high midi knight.
 
I think Maz is a good example of how it should work for many, possibly all... Feels the Force, but can't really control it like a high midi knight.
Yeah, I suspect that's probably how the Jedi did things way back when, but over time they drifted away from it. Perhaps the Sith schism prompted them to be a bit more organised with recruitment and not so willy-nilly, or maybe it was just so gradual they they didn't even realise they were doing things differently.
 
Yeah, I suspect that's probably how the Jedi did things way back when, but over time they drifted away from it. Perhaps the Sith schism prompted them to be a bit more organised with recruitment and not so willy-nilly, or maybe it was just so gradual they they didn't even realise they were doing things differently.

The "awakening" mentioned in VII could be the entire verse, not just Rey like Snoke and Kylo thought.
 
The "awakening" mentioned in VII could be the entire verse, not just Rey like Snoke and Kylo thought.
I'd be hesitant to read too much into it since "awakening" was just Snoke's word for whatever it was he felt.
Most likely a precognitive ripple of what was about to occur, but that's only clear in hindsight. Recall that Palpatine also paid close attention to disturbances in the force, but often seemed to colour his interpretation based on his own preconceptions. Indeed, Snoke demonstrated a similar hubris when reading Kylo's intentions in TLJ, and it cost him his life.

I think the main reason that I don't like this idea is that it presupposes that the force was ever asleep when clearly that's not the case. The force is a constant and as Luke very vehemently proclaimed; the force does not to belong to the Jedi. So yeah, my read of "The Force Awakens" isn't literally the force itself awakening but the force awakening something within Rey, which will be the catalyst for the next great wave of change.
 
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It is canon still that high midichlorian counts means a stronger connection to the force, nothing has contradicted that yet since the new canon started.


Personally, I don't see why the midichlorian count has to be erased from canon in the first place. It was only used in "The Phantom Menace" for two reasons . . .

1) As a means for Qui-Gon Jinn to discover that Anakin Skywalker might have a strong connection to the Force; and . . .

2) As a metaphor for symbiosis and the relationship between the Nabooans and the Gungans, which played a very major role in the movie.


That's it. Lucas never stated that midichlorians were "the Force". He merely stated that they were microscopic beings that served as a symbiotic connection between the Force and all living beings. Chances are they were created by the Force. And yet . . . many fans and the media have been working themselves into a sweat that the midichlorians were the Force, convincing themselves that Lucas had reduced the latter into a science project.


So yeah, my read of "The Force Awakens" isn't literally the force itself awakening but the force awakening something within Rey, which will be the catalyst for the next great wave of change.

Why just Rey? Why just her? Why can't Finn or Poe be included in this "awakening", so to speak?
 
Personally, I don't see why the midichlorian count has to be erased from canon in the first place. It was only used in "The Phantom Menace" for two reasons . . .

1) As a means for Qui-Gon Jinn to discover that Anakin Skywalker might have a strong connection to the Force; and . . .

On this point, midichlorians were completely unnecessary. During the episode 4 trench run, Darth Vader is flying behind Luke and can sense his strength in the Force. There was no reason Qui-Gon or Obi-Wan or any other Jedi shouldn't have looked at Anakin and simply said: "Wow! The Force is strong with this one- very strong!"
 
Personally, I don't see why the midichlorian count has to be erased from canon in the first place.
Also LucasFilm won't make anything George personally came up with non-canon.

Yes that includes the changes made to the special editions. LucasFilm's stance is that the Blu-Rays are the canon versions of George's movies.
 
On this point, midichlorians were completely unnecessary. During the episode 4 trench run, Darth Vader is flying behind Luke and can sense his strength in the Force. There was no reason Qui-Gon or Obi-Wan or any other Jedi shouldn't have looked at Anakin and simply said: "Wow! The Force is strong with this one- very strong!"

I try to reason this out in an in-universe context as another area where the Jedi Order of the PT era had lost their way, losing sight of the ineffable spiritual nature of "The Force" and getting caught up in the minutiae of hard sciences. It's like trying to measure, quantify and catalog the Tao.

Kor
 
Personally, I don't see why the midichlorian count has to be erased from canon in the first place. It was only used in "The Phantom Menace" for two reasons . . .

1) As a means for Qui-Gon Jinn to discover that Anakin Skywalker might have a strong connection to the Force; and . . .

2) As a metaphor for symbiosis and the relationship between the Nabooans and the Gungans, which played a very major role in the movie.
The second reason is decent and ok. The first one is far more infuriating to me, and the reason I want it excised. It's a cheat, a shorthand way of saying "Anakin is strong in the Force" without him doing anything particularly special. It's basically telling not showing.

Why just Rey? Why just her? Why can't Finn or Poe be included in this "awakening", so to speak?
Perhaps she was the most open and receptive.
 
That's it. Lucas never stated that midichlorians were "the Force". He merely stated that they were microscopic beings that served as a symbiotic connection between the Force and all living beings. Chances are they were created by the Force. And yet . . . many fans and the media have been working themselves into a sweat that the midichlorians were the Force, convincing themselves that Lucas had reduced the latter into a science project.

The fans who "worked themselves into a sweat" probably reacted that way thanks to TPM's script over-emphasis on Midichlorians as being so important in the nature of the Force as a concept, application & belief (and naturally by association, the Skywalker line). Here you have the Jedi--a religious body so hard-established as such in the OT--constantly talking about testing, rating of a biological condition, with hardly a complete sentence about the Jedi belief in, use of the Force...and this is--according to Geroge Lucas--supposed to eb the Jedi at their height of...everything. That would be the equivalent of Van Helsing going on and on about the construction of a crucifix instead of why it has power over / to destroy the vampire.

In other words, Midichloians focused on the wrong thing, and in historical context of The Phantom Menace being the first Star Wars film since 1983, if the series was going back to some origin point where the Jedi were involved, the one thing audiences wanted to see was a greater look into the kind of spiritual / philosophical experience covered by Obi-Wan (in ANH) and Yoda (in ESB), not middle school biology for spacemen.

Why just Rey? Why just her? Why can't Finn or Poe be included in this "awakening", so to speak?

'cause she's....special..... ;)
 
it's certainly indicative, but I think the idea has always been that it's correlative, not necessarily causative.

That idea was just fans trying to weasel out of the whole thing. To Lucas it's causative.

I think the main reason that I don't like this idea is that it presupposes that the force was ever asleep when clearly that's not the case.

According to the TFA Visual Dictionary: "Since the disappearance of Luke Skywalker and the shattering of his fledgling Jedi following, the cosmic Force has lain dormant, seemingly quieted to those able to sense its presence."
 
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The second reason is decent and ok. The first one is far more infuriating to me, and the reason I want it excised. It's a cheat, a shorthand way of saying "Anakin is strong in the Force" without him doing anything particularly special. It's basically telling not showing.
The way the plot is structured, what with them needing Anakin to win a podrace (something we're told is not normally possible for a human) can't credibly happen in the first instance unless Qui-Gon has a pretty damn good reason to think it's even a remote possibility.
Also, the way I look at it, Qui-Gon's blood test wasn't to establish Anakin's potential, just confirm what Qui-Gon already suspected, with the added bonus of Anakin being way off the charts more than he'd suspected.

I agree it's better to show rather than tell, but in this case it's such an abstract concept that it's going to be very difficult to demonstrate and provide context for Anakin being unusually force sensitive. This is mostly because as an audience we really don't have a clear sense of what that even means. It's not just about jumping higher or moving larger objects around, it's a deeply profound and intrinsic connection to the fabric of the universe.

Indeed, this difficultly in quantifying this also appears to trouble the jedi in-universe, hence their attempts at using comparative midichlorian counts as a baseline.
 
I must confess that I am one of those "chronically slow on the uptake" folks who think midi-chlorians are dumb.
Fortunately those evil corporate overlords at Disney cater to easily influenced mental zombies like me, and they appear to have dropped the midi-chlorians for good.
Yay!
 
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