The Borg are tactically stupid

[Spot261]

The Borg want civilizations to evolve to counter them. They thrive on "anti-Borg" technology being developed and instituted. Their policy, at least in regards to the bigger polities like the Federation and probably the Romulans, is to send out sacrificial cubes to push them to develop these "out-of-the-box" techniques and countermeasures, which they are incapable of conceiving on their own.

That way, when they inevitably conquer their foe, they are smarter, stronger, and closer to perfection.

Pretty much what I was getting at, that and the idea that by stimulating technological development they are making the target civilisation all that more attractive for assimilation down the line.

It's basically turning the perceived implications of the collective's size upside down. We go from "they have thousands of cubes so why not use them en masse to save attritional losses" (conventional military thinking) to "they have thousands of cubes so those attritional losses are worthwhile if they result in a greater payoff down the line" (assimilation thinking - they see those civilisations almost as crops to tend, attacking them in the hope they will become tastier, manufacturing and distributing tech en masse which the Borg can consume)

 

[Tenacity]

and we also know the Borg as a collective are dangerously intelligent,

No, we don't know this.

Please provide evidence to the contrary.

my point was "we don't know" your statement was true. which we don't. your position is guess work based on next to nothing.

are the borg intelligent at all? the majority of the collective most certainly not, their intelligance actively suppresed along with their individuality.

dangerious? the borg employ brute force to achieve what ever the goal is. but how focused is that force?

voyager showed a relatively large area of space as "borg space," but was that borg exclusive, or the borg randomly meander about in that general vague area waiting for the queen to notice a cube and tell it to do something.

 

[DonIago]

I rather wonder whether Starfleet might have ended up adopting a similar posture if "Measure of a Man" had worked out differently and they had essentially unlimited resources with which to build ships and Datas to crew them. If you have an infinite number of ships filled with disposable people, who cares whether you lose one, or a dozen, or a hundred from time to time?

 

[SpyOne]

Speaking of not knowing their objectives:Today it occurred to me that mayber in First Contact time travel was actually Plan A.
That is; maybe the plan all along was for the cube to protect the sphere and get it close to Earth because they needed (or wanted) to be close to Earth before going back in time.

 

[Nyotarules]

^As much I enjoy TNG First Contact movie going back to 2063 A.D made as much sense as going back to 2063 B.C

 

[DonIago]

The only rationalizations I can come up with are either that Borg time travel wasn't an exact science, or that there was something crucial to their own development that dictated the time they chose.

 

[Tenacity]

The only rationalizations I can come up with are either that Borg time travel wasn't an exact science ..

The Borg time travel placed them one day prior to Cochrane's initial warp flight.

It's possible that they intended to arrive earlier, the day before is cutting it kind of close, but the inexact nature of their time travel science placed them at the end of their intended window.

Or the Borg weren't sure at all when they'd arrive in Earth's past and upon discovering the year they were in, decided on the spot to attack Cochrane launch site.

But if they had arrived at a different point in time the Borg would have chosen a different target.\

If you thing about it (not alway a good idea with Trek movies) what the Borg were doing would only have delayed Humans meeting the Vulcan. If (hypothetical) the Borg stopped the first flight of the Wright brother's airplane, Humans still would have achieved flight, just later.

 

[Timo]

Well, we have

1) the Borg themselves claiming they want to stop Cochrane from flying - and they are the villains, thus the last source we ought to listen to for reliable data
2) the Borg seemingly trying to prevent a source of advanced technology from being born, contrary to their usual interests
3) the Borg proceeding in silly and ineffectual ways about that

and thus basically every reason to believe in the opposite about their true motivations. Especially when they have a time machine and therefore can try again and again until they win, yet the movie concludes with Cochrane flying and the groundwork for the UFP being laid.

Basically everything clicks on place if we do assume the Borg felt Cochrane couldn't get sober enough to build a working warp engine and fly without a little help from the 24th century. The Borg exact the specific degree of damage to Bozeman, the warp rig and the Enterprise to make their cover story convincing, while themselves taking the specific degree of damage (inconsequential 100% losses) to achieve same. All while the one Borg specifically built for her overacting skills overacts to feign defeat...

Writer intent? Hard to tell. But the writers could not have done a better job if they tried.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[saladdays]

If you thing about it (not alway a good idea with Trek movies) what the Borg were doing would only have delayed Humans meeting the Vulcan. If (hypothetical) the Borg stopped the first flight of the Wright brother's airplane, Humans still would have achieved flight, just later.

While that is probably true, they also attempted to contact the Borg that existed in that time period, which (obviously) significantly changed events in the future.

 

[saladdays]

Well, we have

1) the Borg themselves claiming they want to stop Cochrane from flying - and they are the villains, thus the last source we ought to listen to for reliable data
2) the Borg seemingly trying to prevent a source of advanced technology from being born, contrary to their usual interests
3) the Borg proceeding in silly and ineffectual ways about that

and thus basically every reason to believe in the opposite about their true motivations. Especially when they have a time machine and therefore can try again and again until they win, yet the movie concludes with Cochrane flying and the groundwork for the UFP being laid.

Basically everything clicks on place if we do assume the Borg felt Cochrane couldn't get sober enough to build a working warp engine and fly without a little help from the 24th century. The Borg exact the specific degree of damage to Bozeman, the warp rig and the Enterprise to make their cover story convincing, while themselves taking the specific degree of damage (inconsequential 100% losses) to achieve same. All while the one Borg specifically built for her overacting skills overacts to feign defeat...

I haven't watched First Contact for a while, and I don't remember 100% how the Borg explained their objective in stopping Cochrane. However, I don't think that precludes the idea that they didn't know precisely which time period they were going to, only that that became their objective when they arrived.

While I do agree that by preventing a source of technology from being born is contrary to their usual interests, if for some reason they thought that going back in time would have advanced technology in some way on down the line (perhaps by changing human history and creating a large presence in that area of the galaxy would have forced other races to make technological advances of some sort), then it could be a reasonable action. However, I know that this is pure speculation and quite a bit of out of the box thinking, and something that probably wasn't intended by the writers.

 

[Sophie74656]

Maybe the Borg had just assimilated some technology that enabled them to travle back. In time. This could have been their first test

 

[Timo]

This would not change the fact that they had a working time machine. And not just the knowhow for building one, but the actual physical specimen. They could launch it again and again and again, every time being the first time, until they observed a suitably changed universe and would decide that there was no need to launch the time machine for the first time. Or indeed to build it to begin with.

The universe at the conclusion of ST:FC must be to their liking, then...

...And if it does not differ noticeably from the universe Picard and pals remember, then the Borg time travel was done to reinforce or bring about this universe, not to try and change it.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DonIago]

How would one "observe a changed universe"? If the universe changes then you change as well.

 

[Timo]

Indeed. And (at least) one universe, that is, the late 24th century bit of it, prompted the Borg to build a time machine so that they could change it more to their liking.

But in another, the one existing at the conclusion of ST:FC, they apparently did nothing, meaning the universe they observed that time around did not prompt them to build a time machine that would change the universe for the better.

Time machines get built and used by the Borg until there is no need for that. The events of ST:FC apparenly removed the need, meaning the Borg won.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[saladdays]

Timo, you're theory is interesting, although it would probably also depend on the Borg sent to the past always being able to relay information to the collective so the collective can know what has actually changed. If the Borg don't survive or are unable to relay that information for some reason, there would be no way to know what has changed.

 

[Tenacity]

. They could launch it again and again and again, every time being the first time

Unless the ship carrying it was destroyed, if FC was the first trial run, then when the sphere was destroyed above 2063 Earth, the only example would also have been destroyed.

If the time device was something which was assimulated, and the Borg couldn't reproduce it, then that would be it for the Borg's ability to travel through time.

 

[Timo]

...No.

The destruction of the sphere would mean nothing. It would come after the building/launch of the sphere, after all. In every universe where the Borg gained access to the sphere, they would launch it to the past, and every launch would count towards changing the universe to the Collective's liking. Those times the mission failed, the 24th century Borg would simply see a world that needed changing, and would launch their freshly built one and only time machine to its first mission. The one time the mission succeeded, the 24th century Borg would see a world they liked, and would not launch the one and only time machine they had just built.

The Borg would only ever need one time machine for infinitely many time travel attempts. It would always be the same machine, and always only sent on a maiden voyage. For as many times as it took.

And no, there would be no need for a means of relaying information. The universe would simply either be in need of tampering, or then not. The Borg would not need to be aware whether they or somebody else had already engaged in tampering. They would just make the choice based on how the universe appealed to them.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Farscape One]

(O'Brien and few hours ago O'Brien): "I hate temporal mechanics."

 

[Tenacity]

Those times the mission failed, the 24th century Borg would simply see a world that needed changing, and would launch their freshly built one and only time machine to its first mission.

The Borg acquire a time device.
The Borg place the time device in the sphere.
The Borg use the time device.
The time device is destroyed along with the sphere.

 

[DonIago]

...No.

The destruction of the sphere would mean nothing. It would come after the building/launch of the sphere, after all. In every universe where the Borg gained access to the sphere, they would launch it to the past, and every launch would count towards changing the universe to the Collective's liking. Those times the mission failed, the 24th century Borg would simply see a world that needed changing, and would launch their freshly built one and only time machine to its first mission. The one time the mission succeeded, the 24th century Borg would see a world they liked, and would not launch the one and only time machine they had just built.

The Borg would only ever need one time machine for infinitely many time travel attempts. It would always be the same machine, and always only sent on a maiden voyage. For as many times as it took.

And no, there would be no need for a means of relaying information. The universe would simply either be in need of tampering, or then not. The Borg would not need to be aware whether they or somebody else had already engaged in tampering. They would just make the choice based on how the universe appealed to them.

Timo Saloniemi

Except that if you go by multiverse theory then the Borg aren't trying to (indeed, generally can't) alter their own timeline; all they can do is try to have other timelines develop in a manner more amenable to them.

Then again, if anyone was smart enough to time travel, check quantum signatures, and then figure out a way to get back into their timeline of origin, it would be the Borg. But then, that would be a predestination paradox. The Borg were in the past of the timeline because they were always in the past of the timeline.