White self-hatred.... it's impact on mixed race people and families?

[Riker'sMailbox]

I was merely curious, this is an international board and several posters in this thread either come from former territories (I'm not including America here) of the British Empire (that involved the displacement of indigenous cultures and other, unsaviour acts) or Great Britain itself and at times it seemed that we must be held accountable and thus guilty for the acts of Empire.

But thank you for replying to my question, it's actually clarified for me yours and @Marynator's stand points, you seem to be viewing the idea of white privilege through the prism that is living in the United States of America where as those who believe it is a silly notion are (mainly) not, they're viewing through a prism that isn't living in the United States of America.

I fully admit there are problems in the UK (and no country is immune to that) concerning individuals and which ethnic group they come from, but no-where near the extent that seems to occur in the USA.



Well that is debatable, but not for here.

Sorry, don't know how to break up quotes. I do not know much about racial issues in other countries. Truly, I lived in a pretty Republican bubble for most of my life. Now I live in a pretty democratic bubble and have spent a lot of time talking to POC about the day to day racism they encounter. I also have read a lot and it is worrisome that there are posters that seem to think racism is a past issue.

I have a few expat friends in the UK and we have spoken about the racial issues there. Her opinion, as a white immigrant to York, is that racism and immigration are a bit more intertwined there.

 

[Marynator]

I am very deeply sorry for misunderstandings in this thread, I am sorry for hurting anyone's feelings, I certainly didn't mean to do so. I was expressing my point of view, I'm a little saddened some responses were so very harsh. I was very worried about this thread, and I do feel there were some isolated cases of racism, misogyny, and transphobia being expressed, I always fear that's going to happen in a topic like this, and I had hoped we'd be able to exchange ideas without personal anger. I do apologize for my own failures to help keep our conversation more pleasant.

I do apologize for confusion as well, I'm only partly thinking of past exploitation like colonialism, but I'm also mostly talking about invisible racial barriers we have in place today, in every western nation, that affects you if you're not white. We also have privileges for being male, able-bodied, cisgender, Christian, and so much more. It's painful to me to deny this exists, that's why I got a bit worked up, and I'm very sorry for my reactions.

I never meant anyone to feel I was saying it's bad if you're white, I was trying to express my point of view about how I've struggled with my own awareness of my white privilege, and I can appreciate it might make you defensive especially if someone's saying something uncomfortable. I do very strongly believe white privilege is really very real, and is not something only experienced in the United States, but really any majority white country. White privilege is not about economic success, it doesn't mean you live a purely easy life if you're white and you'll never have problems or face hardships. White privilege means you and I who are white have social advantages other minority races do not, and I myself feel sad every day and I do indeed feel guilty knowing I have neighbors who are no different than me except for skin color but they are treated so differently. My guilt doesn't make me hate being white, or think being white is bad or anything like that at all, I am really very sorry if anyone thought I was saying something like that, please do hope you'll forgive me.

Maybe it's a personality thing? I don't like winning at games because I know someone else had to lose. I only like playing cooperatively so we can work together and all win. Oh I do hope people will be able to see my perspective and understand where I'm coming from, and why I feel what I do. I don't think you're a bad person if you don't feel exactly like me. I truly am sorry for projecting my own feelings onto you.

If you're interested in reading I am linking here to a couple articles, about White Privilege in Canada and Ireland:

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...d-an-exploration-of-uncomfortable-truths.html
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/white-privilege-is-real-and-it-exists-in-ireland-1.2835557

I really don't want to argue, but I'd love to talk if anyone wants to, I just do feel an obligation to spread awareness of white privilege, I know people don't like it but it's a real thing and I do believe we as a society need to address and work on. I do feel a little bit disturbed by denial of white privilege, I feel it hurtful, and I do admit I struggle to understand how knowledge of privilege does not make everyone upset, but like I said it's probably from personality differences, we all have different ways to address things that unsettle us, and for me I tend to get emotionally worked up, sometimes I do wish I could be more dispassionate.

I'd very strongly recommend reading about this subject, I found it very eye-opening, I wasn't really aware of what was going on before. I know it's very disturbing and uncomfortable, but if you imagine yourself in the place of someone disadvantaged you can understand their difficulties better. If you don't want to feel pain from this realization that's totally your choice, I guess I just feel we'll be motivated to do more if we feel hurt ourselves until we make it better.

Thank you for listening, please take care.

 

[Butters]

I am very deeply sorry for misunderstandings in this thread, I am sorry for hurting anyone's feelings, I certainly didn't mean to do so. I was expressing my point of view, I'm a little saddened some responses were so very harsh. I was very worried about this thread, and I do feel there were some isolated cases of racism, misogyny, and transphobia being expressed, I always fear that's going to happen in a topic like this, and I had hoped we'd be able to exchange ideas without personal anger. I do apologize for my own failures to help keep our conversation more pleasant.

I do apologize for confusion as well, I'm only partly thinking of past exploitation like colonialism, but I'm also mostly talking about invisible racial barriers we have in place today, in every western nation, that affects you if you're not white. We also have privileges for being male, able-bodied, cisgender, Christian, and so much more. It's painful to me to deny this exists, that's why I got a bit worked up, and I'm very sorry for my reactions.

I never meant anyone to feel I was saying it's bad if you're white, I was trying to express my point of view about how I've struggled with my own awareness of my white privilege, and I can appreciate it might make you defensive especially if someone's saying something uncomfortable. I do very strongly believe white privilege is really very real, and is not something only experienced in the United States, but really any majority white country. White privilege is not about economic success, it doesn't mean you live a purely easy life if you're white and you'll never have problems or face hardships. White privilege means you and I who are white have social advantages other minority races do not, and I myself feel sad every day and I do indeed feel guilty knowing I have neighbors who are no different than me except for skin color but they are treated so differently. My guilt doesn't make me hate being white, or think being white is bad or anything like that at all, I am really very sorry if anyone thought I was saying something like that, please do hope you'll forgive me.

Maybe it's a personality thing? I don't like winning at games because I know someone else had to lose. I only like playing cooperatively so we can work together and all win. Oh I do hope people will be able to see my perspective and understand where I'm coming from, and why I feel what I do. I don't think you're a bad person if you don't feel exactly like me. I truly am sorry for projecting my own feelings onto you.

If you're interested in reading I am linking here to a couple articles, about White Privilege in Canada and Ireland:

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...d-an-exploration-of-uncomfortable-truths.html
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/white-privilege-is-real-and-it-exists-in-ireland-1.2835557

I really don't want to argue, but I'd love to talk if anyone wants to, I just do feel an obligation to spread awareness of white privilege, I know people don't like it but it's a real thing and I do believe we as a society need to address and work on. I do feel a little bit disturbed by denial of white privilege, I feel it hurtful, and I do admit I struggle to understand how knowledge of privilege does not make everyone upset, but like I said it's probably from personality differences, we all have different ways to address things that unsettle us, and for me I tend to get emotionally worked up, sometimes I do wish I could be more dispassionate.

I'd very strongly recommend reading about this subject, I found it very eye-opening, I wasn't really aware of what was going on before. I know it's very disturbing and uncomfortable, but if you imagine yourself in the place of someone disadvantaged you can understand their difficulties better. If you don't want to feel pain from this realization that's totally your choice, I guess I just feel we'll be motivated to do more if we feel hurt ourselves until we make it better.

Thank you for listening, please take care.

Please reread the thread and try to understand why your posts were taken so badly instead of apologising for some of us not understanding you, and then making the exact same point we found so repugnant to begin with.

Feeling guilty for what you have is a luxury not shared by everyone by virtue of being white and being a white Armerican is not the same experience as being a white Armenian, for example.

If you need to find things to make you feel pain, well done, you have some genuine privileges, but many have enough to worry about.

 

[DimesDan]

Sorry, don't know how to break up quotes. I do not know much about racial issues in other countries. Truly, I lived in a pretty Republican bubble for most of my life. Now I live in a pretty democratic bubble and have spent a lot of time talking to POC about the day to day racism they encounter.

Sorry, POC?

I also have read a lot and it is worrisome that there are posters that seem to think racism is a past issue.

I don't think anyone here is claiming that, as I said, no country is immune from having prejudices from where an individuals ethnic background (being White and British, I have experienced that here in Ireland from individuals of Irish and Eastern European backgrounds) is and having a form of hierarchy in that regards, it just seems that as a person with a non American prospective I am (and I can't speak of anyone else here) that it seems so more pronounced in the United States of America.

I have a few expat friends in the UK and we have spoken about the racial issues there. Her opinion, as a white immigrant to York, is that racism and immigration are a bit more intertwined there.

Given I left the UK after the Referendum about leaving the EU due to the arguments that were used, I can very much believe that is the case. I can't speak for the individuals who don't want more ethnic cohertion, but I do know of someone who is a third generation immigrant from Pakistan who voted Leave two years ago.

One thing I will say is the term race, I hate it, it's misleading and in my opinion, it causes more trouble. Humanity is all one race, yes we developed in different areas of the globe and due to that, there are slight variations in our appearance and some ethnic groupings have a tendency to develop health issues over others. But race, it's a purely human constructed hierarchy.

 

[Kemaiku]

Sorry, POC?

People of Colour.

 

[Marynator]

Please reread the thread and try to understand why your posts were taken so badly instead of apologising for some of us not understanding you, and then making the exact same point we found so repugnant to begin with.

Oh dear, you see this is why I feel we must be completely misunderstanding each other, because I feel I am talking about my sadness at racial inequality, and I feel you're saying my point about that is repugnant, and I can't really believe you feel that way about anger at racial injustice? I really do feel something must be getting lost in our discussion somewhere.

I am very deeply sorry you have had dark times in your life, I do not wish that for anyone, and I do not believe anyone should be denied help, and I don't believe I ever said that. I am very much hoping your experience was in the past and you are not currently suffering so deeply, my heart does go out to you. But I do hope you understand that does not mean there is racial equality in our society? I am very sorry if anything I ever said made you feel I do not have sympathy for you or anyone else who has ever suffered, that most certainly was never my intention.

 

[Riker'sMailbox]

Sorry, POC?

People of color

 

[urbandefault]

Oh dear, you see this is why I feel we must be completely misunderstanding each other, because I feel I am talking about my sadness at racial inequality, and I feel you're saying my point about that is repugnant, and I can't really believe you feel that way about anger at racial injustice? I really do feel something must be getting lost in our discussion somewhere.

I am very deeply sorry you have had dark times in your life, I do not wish that for anyone, and I do not believe anyone should be denied help, and I don't believe I ever said that. I am very much hoping your experience was in the past and you are not currently suffering so deeply, my heart does go out to you. But I do hope you understand that does not mean there is racial equality in our society? I am very sorry if anything I ever said made you feel I do not have sympathy for you or anyone else who has ever suffered, that most certainly was never my intention.

I think he's saying that you come across as condescending. At least that's how it seems to me. I'm sure you're a very nice person in real life. Most people are, regardless of their skin color or perceived "privilege."

 

[Spot's Meow]

@Marynator I don't think that you need to worry yourself over whether you have expressed your opinion well and fully in this thread, as I believe that many, if not most, of us do get what you are trying to say, and where you are coming from.

I do feel a little bit disturbed by denial of white privilege

I have to disagree with your assessment that there has been denial of white privilege in this thread. With the exception of a couple of extreme outliers, I have seen almost every poster in this thread acknowledging the existence of white privilege, as well as privilege that may stem from being a member of other types of majority groups. I believe that most who have entered this discussion already understood and acknowledged that these privileges existed before coming into this thread, which may be why your attempts to educate seem to fall on deaf ears. In other venues education may be more useful, but I have found that TrekBBS is typically populated with more thoughtful, intelligent, and reflective types of people than you may find elsewhere.

As a previous poster stated in a different way, I think we are pretty much all on the same page regarding the existence of privilege, and at this point are disagreeing more over the nuances of it, and how to respond to it. So please don't worry that you have been unable to properly explain white privilege to us; it's just that the explanation wasn't really necessary in this case.

I feel it hurtful, and I do admit I struggle to understand how knowledge of privilege does not make everyone upset, but like I said it's probably from personality differences, we all have different ways to address things that unsettle us, and for me I tend to get emotionally worked up, sometimes I do wish I could be more dispassionate.

I think this is the crux of the issue. Because many have not responded to the idea of white privilege in the same way that you do, there may be an assumption that they have not really acknowledged or don't really understand that privilege. However, as you say, people have vastly different approaches to understanding and coming to terms with privilege. For those that are more emotionally inclined, as you state that you are, you may feel very deeply about this issue, in a way that does indeed lead you to feelings of guilt.

My sister feels things very deeply as well, and it's her compassion and empathy for those that have intellectual disabilities that has led her to becoming an amazing special education teacher. She sometimes cries thinking about some of her students, and how little care they have been shown throughout their education. The ability to feel deep empathy is not a bad thing in and of itself, though it can sometimes lead the person to take on more guilt and sadness than they should for their own mental health.

As you are aware, not everyone feels things in this way. I also feel empathy for those who may not possess the same mental abilities that I do, but although that led my sister to a life of service to those with that need, I have not done the same. Is it because I care less, or because I don't understand the plight of those less fortunate? No, it's because I've chosen to focus my energies elsewhere, and because I reconcile my empathy in other ways. I donate to charities and foundations that support research and treatment, I look for how important this issue is to candidates when voting, and I try to interact with those who may have intellectual disabilities in a way that is respectful and compassionate, while also recognizing that they are not one large homogeneous group but rather individuals who each experience life in different ways.

I have spent many years studying history, which has definitely shaped my perspective on, well, everything. In some ways it has led me to thinking less emotionally, and more dispassionately, about issues such as these because I take the long view of things. When you place what is happening in context, it is at the same time less upsetting and more upsetting. Less upsetting when you realize that there is nothing "special" about this time or the people living in it, and we have already come so far. I'm very grateful for the advances that have been made even in the past 100 years. More upsetting when you think about all of the lessons that have not yet been learned from past atrocities. By spending my life making history more accessible to others, I hope that we can move one step closer to learning those lessons. That's how I address privilege.

This doesn't really translate to guilt, but the end result is the same: we both have an understanding of the wrongs that have occurred in the past, and are trying to do our own small part to ensure that they don't continue to happen in the future. I have seen this sentiment expressed by nearly everyone in this thread, regardless of how they feel about the term "white guilt." I think that's what's really important here, rather than what label we are assigning it.

 

[DimesDan]

People of color

Cheers, I've heard the phrase, it's not one I use though.

 

[Refuge]

Oh golly gee whiz I'm so very and deeply sorry too. Now what am I supposed to be sorry about again??

 

[Kor]

I just don't see "guilt" as something positive, productive and pro-active.

Actions that come from feelings of guilt are more about selfishly assuaging your own troubled conscience and trying to make you feel better about yourself, rather than genuinely wanting to help others.

Kor

 

[Awesome Possum]

Privilege and especially white privilege doesn’t mean your life will be free of problems or struggle, just that you don’t have to deal with issues that people without that privilege have to deal with every single day.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Oh golly gee whiz I'm so very and deeply sorry too. Now what am I supposed to be sorry about again??

Being mean?

 

[Jayson1]

I think what a Marynator is saying isn't that we aren't aware that the concept of white privilege exists but we don't always see specific examples in our daily lives because our own personal issues naturally become more important and also the fact that we can't always see the forrest because of the tree's. I can give a example. When I was having really bad OCD and panic attacks I would go to the Emergency Room. I was basically jumping off the walls inside my mind even though I guess I was always calm on the outside because only my mom could tell when I was having a panic attack. I was afraid of hurting myself or in those days even someone else back before I really understood what OCD was about.

I was so frayed I went up to the cop that was stationed their and literally asked him to put hand kuffs on me just so I could relax. He refused to do it and I even did this a few times because their was a time when I was going almost daily because of some medicine I was taking at the time triggering the panic attacks. If I was black maybe he would have put them on me or treated me like a dangerous criminal type instead of just someone with some extreme anxiety. Then again maybe he and the other cops were just nice people and would have treated them just the same. Since I don't know them that well it's a case where maybe that was me having white priviledge or maybe it wasn't. I will never know since I didn't know the cops that well thus I can;t see the forrest from the tree's in tthat example. I only know it was possible.

Which is one of the reasons racism is so hard to fight. Many times you just don't know people well enough to really know if they are racist or not.. Not everyone walks around with Nazi tattoo's or are little to quick with a joke about black people and monkeys. People know it exists but it's hard to know for sure in all everyday encounters and situations. Not only that but not all racists are even outwardly mean. Some keep those feelings inside because people know how your suppose to act in society and if your white and you know a white racist he or she might even like you because you are white and thus he or she isn't going start insulting you with racist slurs. Which I guess would be the ultimate example of white privledge.


Jason

 

[Butters]

White privilege, white guilt, white denial, these are all loaded and decisive terms that immediately split opinion and kill genuine debate and progress.

They used to be called prejudice, discrimination, injustice, institutional racism. It’s not news, not for everyone any way. I’ve been aware of these for thirty odd years and it does make me sad, but have done whatever I can encourage change, and nothing to make it worse for anyone.

When conversations in the real world turned to ‘them pakis are all the same...’ I’ve been one of those that say ‘no they’re not’.

I did a minor in History and my choices were early American history and the rise of the British Empire. I know what went on. I don’t need to be educated by articles on the internet about how terrible white people are.

Like most people, I don’t like that clothes are made in sweatshops by children, or that black Americans can’t wake up without the risk of being shot by the police, or that I might be favoured by an employer because of my skin or my sex, but it happens, I know it does. But divisive anti-white buzz words will change nothing.

 

[Avro Arrow]

Oh golly gee whiz I'm so very and deeply sorry too. Now what am I supposed to be sorry about again??

@Refuge , this appears to be a deliberate attempt to mock/troll Marynator. Please refrain from this, or it can result in an infraction. Thank you.

 

[Jayson1]

White privilege, white guilt, white denial, these are all loaded and decisive terms that immediately split opinion and kill genuine debate and progress.

They used to be called prejudice, discrimination, injustice, institutional racism. It’s not news, not for everyone any way. I’ve been aware of these for thirty odd years and it does make me sad, but have done whatever I can encourage change, and nothing to make it worse for anyone.

When conversations in the real world turned to ‘them pakis are all the same...’ I’ve been one of those that say ‘no they’re not’.

I did a minor in History and my choices were early American history and the rise of the British Empire. I know what went on. I don’t need to be educated by articles on the internet about how terrible white people are.

Like most people, I don’t like that clothes are made in sweatshops by children, or that black Americans can’t wake up without the risk of being shot by the police, or that I might be favoured by an employer because of my skin or my sex, but it happens, I know it does. But divisive anti-white buzz words will change nothing.

I agree the terms like many other terms that have become big in recent years that both republicans and Democrats have created for their side have become toxic to debate. I don't think people use a term like white guilt though are doing it out of malice. It's just that people get triggered very fast on the internet so to talk about something you got to either ignore a term you might not like and give people the benefit of the doubt or find away to talk about something while avoiding those trigger words but still talk about it using other words though that tends to take longer.
It's pretty hard though when things are so bad that just listing a race or gender in a sentence means that your thread is likely to die soon with people getting outraged way to soon because nobody wants to give anyone the benefit of doubt anymore. Don't even try and plays Devil's Advocate or try and understand the other side without letting your emotions get in the way. I do think it's better on the Trekbbs though than most of the other places on the internet. Maybe that's because this is a message board and you can talk abit and even ramble instead of just saying something in 10 words and expecting it to mean anything worthwhile. Roseanne's joke for example didn't even qualify as a paragraph. If she was trying to make a bigger point then maybe one you should spend more time on it than a single sentence. Also don't expect much real talk on issues from businesses. From racism to sexism every company or lawyer for someone accused release the same sounding prepared statement we have all heard a million times.



Jason

 

[Long Syntax]

@Refuge , this appears to be a deliberate attempt to mock/troll Marynator. Please refrain from this, or it can result in an infraction. Thank you.

It could just be humor, no?

 

[Nyotarules]

Just managed to read up to page 3, I think I get what @Marynator is trying to say but as a black woman I disagree with her regarding the guilt factor. In the UK most of the knife crimes are committed by young black males, should I expect my black son to feel guilty for what other young, black males do? Hell no! Black people are not a monolith, and yet because of racism and prejudice we have been treated like this for centuries!

Also the United States concept of racial politics is not uniform around the globe, and why should it be. Looking at the history of the USA via the United Kingdom there are elements of not only racism based on skin colour but also classism and sometimes the two are intertwined. The white privilege mentioned in the thread seems more like upper middle class white privilege. To limit the definitions of racism to - having the power to subjugate another human based on skin colour. That is one definition and as we all know words can have more than one meaning and meanings change. Hating someone or/and feeling one is superior and denying them access to something, no matter how small based on skin colour is also racism, and any human being can and do act this way. We can give examples.

One does not need to feel guilty to recognise injustice and stand against it in any form. If your guilt compels one to action then all good, if one's guilt just makes your feel 'oh look at all those terrible things my ancestors did to black people, oh poor them.' Then you can take that patronising attitude, it helps no one and is narcissistic.

Upper class white privileges does exist, it existed for the upper middle class white women who benefited as much from slavery as their white male husbands, while knowing hubby was creeping to the slave shack raping his slaves.
And as long as the average poor white man does not see himself as equal to the average poor nonwhite male, and that they have more in common than they realise in this rightwing, ultra capitalist system, then white privilege will be the gift that keeps on taking.

As Chris Rock said 'The average white man does not want to be me. And I'm rich!'
This sums up white privilege!