White self-hatred.... it's impact on mixed race people and families?

[Nyotarules]

I don't know if you are aware of the power and reach of American popular culture, but American narratives of what race is, who is black and who is white, are being thrust onto cultures with very different racial histories to America.

Very true, it is an example of American privilege, USA style. The whole world does not view things the same way and its pretty arrogant (North American privilege) to stem the racial argument from only that perspective IMO, as if its the default one.

 

[Nyotarules]

Cheers, I've heard the phrase, it's not one I use though.

Me nether I hate the term. It implies that white people are translucent. The last time I checked white or pink, (which is probably more accurate) is a colour. All humans are people of colour, just ask the Andorians.

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

I think the moral of this thread is to 1) Cheque your privilege (when applicable) 2) Don't impress your views on others and 3) Be good to one another

 

[Spot261]

Very true, it is an example of American privilege, USA style. The whole world does not view things the same way and its pretty arrogant (North American privilege) to stem the racial argument from only that perspective IMO, as if its the default one.

This applies more broadly into other walks of life to be honest. There is a definite tendency to see the world through the lens of the USA and assume what applies there is somehow simultaneously special but also an illustration of the world at large.

It's hardly uncommon in here or elsewhere to find the assumption be that people are American, to find that "the world" is used as a euphemism for "USA" or that it is somehow terrible to be "anti American", that whatever is in the US's interests or furthers it's agenda is by default a good thing.

 

[Nyotarules]

This applies more broadly into other walks of life to be honest. There is a definite tendency to see the world through the lens of the USA and assume what applies there is somehow simultaneously special but also an illustration of the world at large.

It's hardly uncommon in here or elsewhere to find the assumption be that people are American, to find that "the world" is used as a euphemism for "USA" or that it is somehow terrible to be "anti American", that whatever is in the US's interests or furthers it's agenda is by default a good thing.

Understandable when a nation state is the present cultural, economic and political top dog of the Sol system. Two hundred years ago the British had the same cultural arrogance, (Rule Britannia and all that), then came WWII. Go back in time it was the Romans, the Greeks, the Persians, the Babylons, the Egyptians. Give it time and it will be the Chinese in the future!
When the powers that be talk about race in the UK sometimes I find it funny and sometimes annoying when they talk about ethnic peoples (i.e anyone who is not white British) as if people of Anglo Saxon, Norman, Viking, Celts, Pict descent are not part of an ethnic group.
The thing is the biggest ethnic group (or race) on the planet are in China, (Hans?), one of the smallest those of mainly European descent (White people).
Speaking for myself, I find the 'White Saviour' syndrome annoying. There is a danger the attitude does not see me as an equal human being, but as a borderline pet, similar to the 'Can I touch your hair?' questions I use to get. Sometimes people with good intentions fail the 'Guess who is coming to dinner' test. Sometimes I fail it myself.

 

[Mudd]

I don't know about "white guilt," but Europeans and their descendants are responsible for most of the world's problems.

 

[Awesome Possum]

I don't know about "white guilt," but Europeans and their descendants are responsible for most of the world's problems.

Pretty much.

 

[Qonundrum]

I don't know about "white guilt," but Europeans and their descendants are responsible for most of the world's problems.

But didn't Kirk do that in the name of the Federation all the time, spreading European life values? Arguably with some differences perhaps... especially if the Federation was seen metaphorically as America and not merely the United Nations?

That's just a tad glib, as was your comment. How can such a small group of people have that much power?

What about Europeans who have educated others? Are they part of the responsibility you're hinting at?

Ore are you saying that because there haven't been new standards that it's Europeans' fault for not fixing the past, even the stuff it's not guilty of, indirectly or directly.

Also, did the Europeans help set up stuff like this -->

In the UK, credit scores are mostly used to determine whether people can get a credit card or loan. But in China, the government is developing a much broader “social credit” system partly based on people’s routine behaviours with the ultimate goal of determining the “trustworthiness” of the country’s 1.4 billion citizens.

It might sound like a futuristic dystopian nightmare but the system is already a reality. Social credit is preventing people from buying airline and train tickets, stopping social gatherings from happening, and blocking people from going on certain dating websites. Meanwhile, those viewed kindly are rewarded with discounted energy bills and similar perks.

http://www.wired.co.uk/article/china-social-credit

Also, what's wrong about a system like that? Or what's right? I mean, if we're going to blame all the world's issues on a region that didn't invent gunpowder for the sake of catching tasty animals more quickly.​

 

[Nyotarules]

I don't know about "white guilt," but Europeans and their descendants are responsible for most of the world's problems.

Since the world has never been problem free, I doubt this is true. When Europeans were 'barbarians living in caves', the rest of the world was not a Utopia.
If nuclear weapons did not exist (invented by Europeans) we might be experiencing World War 10 by now. (And I am not a nuclear weapon luvvie, just an expert on human nature, being one myself.)

 

[Mudd]

But didn't Kirk do that in the name of the Federation all the time, spreading European life values?

Can we talk about the world occasionally without bringing goddamned Star Trek into everything?

[QUOTE"]How can such a small group of people have that much power?
[/QUOTE]

The how and why of that is, in large part, the story of modernity and its myriad failings.

Since the world has never been problem free, I doubt this is true. When Europeans were 'barbarians living in caves', the rest of the world was not a Utopia.

We're not talking about prehistory, or a thousand years ago. What part of "most of the problems" is the difficulty, here?

 

[UssGlenn]

So many of the terms in vogue now seem tailor made to be as belittling as possible to the target. Then the person using the term is "Shocked, Shocked I tell you!" that the person on the receiving end could possibly be offended. Also a major issue with the discussion of White Privilege is that the term implies that the removal of it would cause white people to have more difficult lives. It puts equilibrium in the middle. In truth, the removal of White privilege would cause the lives of Minorities to become less inconvenient, rising up to the white average. But because the term itself is biased we never get to the real meaning of the term.

 

[Spot261]

I don't know about "white guilt," but Europeans and their descendants are responsible for most of the world's problems.

Yup, in fact it was all me

 

[Mudd]

Yup, in fact it was all me

I suspected as much.

 

[Kemaiku]

My extended family in Northern Ireland where largely spread around various British armed forces and Ulster paramilitary organisations that I have to unentangle all of that shit of white on white, geographically tiny range of bullshit violence to unpack the rest of Whitey's baggage. Mope in your own time, help who you can now, you are not your ancestors legacy, your actions are your own.

Not sure what my point is, but then this all sounds too much like a typical pity party to bother having one.

 

[Spot261]

Since the world has never been problem free, I doubt this is true. When Europeans were 'barbarians living in caves', the rest of the world was not a Utopia.
If nuclear weapons did not exist (invented by Europeans) we might be experiencing World War 10 by now. (And I am not a nuclear weapon luvvie, just an expert on human nature, being one myself.)

True, but there's a world of mileage between "Europeans caused most of the world's problems" and "the world would have no problems without them".

Typically most of the worlds problems are caused by, well, people and the more power people have the more damage they can do. Thus at any given point in history the most damaging nations tend to be the dominant ones. Not too long ago that was the British with our Empire, nowadays it tends to be the US.

Europeans and white people in general do not hold a monopoly on colonialism, bigotry, jingoism and the whole gamut of nasty, harmful, destructive behaviour that is the hallmark of much of humanity's legacy, but as a segment of humanity which has held such disproportionate power for so long a commensurately large portion of that damage has certainly been our doing.

Sure, if we hadn't been the ones doing it someone else doubtless would, but we aren't discussing some hypothetical alternate reality, just the one for better or worse we have available to us.

 

[Mudd]

Europeans and white people in general do not hold a monopoly on colonialism, bigotry, jingoism and the whole gamut of nasty, harmful, destructive behaviour that is the hallmark of much of humanity's legacy, but as a segment of humanity which has held such disproportionate power for so long a commensurately large portion of that damage has certainly been our doing.

Exactly so.

We didn't invent a single new sin, but my gods how we've refined and supercharged the worst of human shortcomings.

And we have done so on the backs of an explosively expanding world population, creating more misery in more lives than ever before.

Privilege is so very conveniently transparent to the privileged...

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I don't know about "white guilt," but Europeans and their descendants are responsible for most of the world's problems.

We're not talking about prehistory, or a thousand years ago. What part of "most of the problems" is the difficulty, here?

Well, I'm not going to speak for @Nyotarules, but for myself "most" is an issue, and hand-in-hand with that it is an issue how to enumerate the problems and assign them weight, not to mention how to assign responsibility.

For example, we could say that gunpowder is a direct cause or otherwise an underlying cause in many serious problems in the world, but that sure as heck wasn't discovered by Europeans. Cutting off discussion of gunpowder because it was discovered over a thousand years ago seems pretty arbitrary, given how important a factor guns are in the world's problems today, not just domestically in the US in terms of gun control but around the world in terms of war.

Or, less remotely and operating within your time horizon, we could observe that most people on the planet live in sovereign states that aren't European and, even if they are former European colonies in whole or part, whose populations aren't dominated by European descendants. Do we count problems by counting hungry mouths? By counting people who live in war zones? Abnormally unsafe areas? Etc. Is something a European problem because Europeans haven't solved it, even if it is taking place in a non-European country? Or are you saying that Europeans and their descendants are pulling most of the strings around the world, and so own the lion's share of the blame?

Europeans and their descendants have certainly played a major role in fucking things up, I'm not arguing against that, and IMO Americans probably share a disproportionate responsibility for the state of the world today. But yeah, the issue would be what's meant by "most" and the can of worms there.

Not mention, how to assign responsibility for so-called blame to people who weren't even alive when the sins were committed.

as a segment of humanity which has held such disproportionate power for so long a commensurately large portion of that damage has certainly been our doing

Yes, but I hope you can see that there's a difference between holding a disproportionately large share of blame, or responsibility if you prefer, and holding most of it.

I'm not saying that Europeans and their descendants (i.e. chiefly whites in the good ol' USA) don't hold most of the blame or responsibility either. What I am saying is that there are quite a lot of undefined terms flying around here.

 

[Spot261]

I'm not saying that Europeans and their descendants (i.e. chiefly the good ol' USA) don't hold most of the blame or responsibility either. What I am saying is that there are quite a lot of undefined terms flying around here.

Granted, but there isn't really an objective way to measure mass suffering. Nonetheless it would be a fool who looked at an unbiased assessment of history and claimed "the Aboriginal Australians did it all".

These things are always going to require a degree of subjective assessment but that assessment can be pretty reasonably educated and well formed all the same.

 

[Jedi_Master]

Yup, in fact it was all me

It's about time you fessed up....

 

[Spot261]

It's about time you fessed up....

I can pardon myself you know