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Who's The Best Person?

So, you make some very good points. I still feel it is not as big a deal as you make it sound, but your points are valid, so I wont try to debate them. We basically agree more than we disagree, and it's more a rating of the degree of the transgression that we disagree about.

But, on this last comment you made, I'd like to make a response. How can we say that she is wrong? I thought that her Betazoid skills allowed her to know things that we can not know. Sometimes she has feelings and is not sure, but she says she is not sure. Other times she is sure and she sounds sure. This is a case where she sounds very sure. This is why I asked before if she is lying or telling the truth. If she is not sure and makes it sound like she is sure, shame on her. But, if she is honestly sure, how can we say we are right and she is wrong?
I'd say she IS sure that Jellico isn't convinced that what he's doing will work... because he isn't. What she's sensing is probably true. He admits as much to Picard, privately, that he expects their missions to both fail, in the worst way.

But how Deanna framed what she said, was that Jellico is unsure of himself, which isn't the same thing. To be unsure of himself would mean he questions himself as to the choices he's making, vs some other choices he could be making.

She's suggesting that he's undecided about his own actions, which I'm convinced isn't true. He came into this with a specific plan of action, based on profound experience in similar situations with Cardassians. He's moving forward in the best way he sees fit, to ensure the highest probability of success. He's even bucking against the crew some to see he gets it.

My point is that we get no other indication that he is hiding self-doubt. He seems almost single minded about what he must do. However, he likely suspects that even doing everything right, like he's trying to do, the mission will still fail

That's the doubt he's feeling, & I'm not convince Troi is finely tuned enough to differentiate between someone experiencing self-doubt, vs just ordinary doubt, like about the mission, and while she was probably just making an off the cuff remark, it suggested the man is afflicted with self-doubt

Picard's rarely ever been afflicted with self-doubt about himself, but he has been similarly full of doubt about other stuff plenty of times, & she's never made such a comment about him, because she trusts him. The one time he was full of self-doubt, (Time Squared) she nearly had a meltdown trying to tell everybody.

It was very careless to drop such a thoughtless remark, when people might misconstrue it, especially when I suspect she's not even capable of making such a delicate emotional distinction

She sensed doubt. So what? What kind of doubt is what matters, & I really doubt she could ever be that specific, but her comment was very specific
 
But how Deanna framed what she said, was that Jellico is unsure of himself, which isn't the same thing. ...
She's suggesting that he's undecided about his own actions, which I'm convinced isn't true.
But, that's exactly the question I'm asking. You are convinced what she says (unsure of himself) is not true, but if she is sure in what she said (he is unsure of himself, as replying to Rikers comment that he is sure of himself) and she is Betazoid, itn't it true automatically? Unless she is lying, or at least she is not really sure and just sound like she is sure.

So, as I said, if she is not sure, shame on her. If she is sure, how can we as viewers say she is wrong. Perhaps he is unsure of himself even if we think he is sure of himself.
 
But, that's exactly the question I'm asking. You are convinced what she says (unsure of himself) is not true, but if she is sure in what she said (he is unsure of himself, as replying to Rikers comment that he is sure of himself) and she is Betazoid, itn't it true automatically? Unless she is lying, or at least she is not really sure and just sound like she is sure.

So, as I said, if she is not sure, shame on her. If she is sure, how can we as viewers say she is wrong. Perhaps he is unsure of himself even if we think he is sure of himself.
Because, while she is Betazoid, by her own admission, her abilities are diminished. She isn't telepathic. She only senses what someone is feeling, in this case, Jellico's uncertainty. It's a question of context. She has none... ever, in the whole history of her character. When someone is sad, she doesn't know what they're sad about, until she deduces it from conversation, circumstances &/or relevant indicators.

Jellico is revealing nothing from those, hence why Riker thinks he's exuding certainty. So, then all she is going on is her sense of what the guy is feeling... uncertainty. She doesn't know why he's uncertain, or what he's uncertain about, because that's not what her empathy is, & the difference between someone being uncertain about circumstances vs being uncertain in themselves, while a HUGE difference in context, is probably not all that much different as feelings go. It's still just uncertainty.

She is sure he's uncertain. That's probably why she said it, but making the offhand comment that "No he isn't" sure, in the context of Riker having said he was sure of himself, is a wholly different claim, & how would someone, who can't read his mind to know it's specifically about himself that he's uncertain, ever know that?

This from a character infamous for saying things like "He's hiding something" The vagueness of her skill is an object of humor among us, & since this specific episode is an open invitation to the audience, to weigh both sides of this story dynamic, where we ought to maybe be questioning Riker's behavior, just as much as Jellico's, I don't think it's terribly inappropriate to question Troi's bias as well

This is a very specific statement, that she may have inadvertently said, not realizing how specific she was being. It would've been very easy for her to just blurt "No he isn't", without realizing what she was implying, & that it isn't really a specific context she could possibly know. Riker, however, could've taken it quite literally, to mean the guy is a sham, which, all tolled, we kind of know the guy isn't
 
I'm still not sure if I understand your view completely. You seem to say she is sure, but not really sure?

Anyway, it doesn't matter. My point is simply that if she is not sure, she did a disservice to the captain. If she is sure, it defaults to my opinion before.

I think the whole point of that scene is the writers are telling us (through Troi) that the captain is not really sure of himself. That's how I interpret it and I also think that is why we should not hold it against Troi.
 
I'm still not sure if I understand your view completely. You seem to say she is sure, but not really sure?

Anyway, it doesn't matter. My point is simply that if she is not sure, she did a disservice to the captain. If she is sure, it defaults to my opinion before.

I think the whole point of that scene is the writers are telling us (through Troi) that the captain is not really sure of himself. That's how I interpret it and I also think that is why we should not hold it against Troi.
lol All I'm saying is that she considers herself sure, but it doesn't make any sense that she could ever be sure about why he's feeling uncertainty. How would her empathy be able to differentiate between general uncertainty, verses self-doubt, which is essentially the same emotion, in a different context? Emotionally, doubt is doubt. What's important is what he doubts, & I don't see how she could know what he doubts. She's not fully telepathic

She doesn't know that context. She only feels people's emotions. So yeah, he's unsure, but I see no reason to think he's unsure specifically about himself, (Which would be reason for worrying) but if he's just unsure about things going their way, then hell, every captain feels that, in which case, she might as well not even bother making the comment

Edit: So, basically. She's sure what she's saying is true, but in relation to what Riker said, she's most likely talking out of her ass lol. Wouldn't be the 1st time, & I think everyone in this episode is open to some questioning of their perspective
 
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Thank you. I think I understand you now. So, my binary mind is translating your point of view into the idea that she really is not sure that "he is unsure of himself". If her abilities are not precise, then she should not make absolute statements. And, with that point of view we must really take a dimmer view of her actions. You have made me curious to check out those other scenes with her more carefully.
 
Thank you. I think I understand you now. So, my binary mind is translating your point of view into the idea that she really is not sure that "he is unsure of himself". If her abilities are not precise, then she should not make absolute statements. And, with that point of view we must really take a dimmer view of her actions. You have made me curious to check out those other scenes with her more carefully.
I suppose yes & no. Yes to everything you said, but I honestly don't hold them all to this same level of scrutiny in most other episodes. I mean you could, I suppose, & maybe it holds up or not, but this episode is specifically written to invite the audience to question their protagonists. Jellico is, after all, not the unscrupulous, "Evil" admiral of the week. He is not Norah Satie or Erik Pressman, where throughout the episode their wrong doing becomes apparent. He isn't even Ben Maxwell, who's relatable, comprimised & led astray etc...

By all accounts, Jellico is just a Starfleet captain... maybe different than the one they currently serve under, & somehow, that difference or in combination with these circumstances has led to conflict, but there's no legitimate reason to think this guy is a bad captain. He's in good standing among his superiors. In fact, he's the indispensable man, apparently. He commands his own crew on his own ship, & one can't imagine that doing so would be entirely conflictual for him. At some level, you'd expect that he upholds the same principles & loyalties as all our heroes do. So the only thing we have to even suggest he might be a bad captain is the testimony of our heroes, who clearly have a bias, in that they are affected by it personally. It's that bias the episode deliberately challenges us to evaluate, & in that way, Jellico is a uniquely polarizing character, that's actually had us heatedly debating for over two decades

I honestly haven't examined every word Troi's ever said, over 7 seasons. Maybe I should though, just for comparison purposes, However, because I was already examining everyone's attitudes, behaviors, & perspectives in this episode, anyhow? I really hit a stumbling block with her statement about him. It seemed careless to me, like a how gossip is irresistible. As Cumberbatch's Sherlock once said. People don't like telling you things, but the LOVE to contradict you, & it really felt like that's what she was doing.

Will made an off hand comment, trying to ease tensions about the situation, & she couldn't help but slide in there with her little insight, that she knew Will was blind to, thoughtlessly overlooking that she might be saying something that could be taken in a much darker tone, to suggest the guy is completely undependable, because of self-doubt. I just have to think she might have some emotional insight, but she doesn't know everything. She doesn't even know all the details of the mission, enough to know Picard is probably never coming back. She doesn't know the guy personally, least of all to know how he functions in high pressure situations. What's his level of doubt amount to in her mind anyway? How is she to judge that by any metric but her own? & is she a high pressure captain, use to unilaterally dealing with enemy combatants at the negotiating table? Not really.

In short, isn't it possible for her to be right about what she felt, but wrong about what it means? I think it is. This has made me want to explore her more thoroughly myself. I'd love to be able to find other examples.
 
Nobility, integrity, righteousness, generosity, kindness, loyalty, humility, reliability... On the whole, they're all incredibly good people, our TNG friends, but who among them, in the end, could sincerely be spoken of, by the others, as truly having been "the best of us"?

My vote has to go to Data. From top to bottom, in matters big or small. He exemplifies everything we should all hope to be, despite being more unlike any of us than all of them

I'm applauding ! Couldn't have said better ! Data should be an example for all human beings around - so selfless, compassionate, reliable, honest...I can hardly find any flaw !
 
So the only thing we have to even suggest he might be a bad captain is the testimony of our heroes, who clearly have a bias, in that they are affected by it personally.

Geordie deserves the best person award for his patience displayed with Jellico
 
Geordie deserves the best person award for his patience displayed with Jellico
I do give Geordi credit there. He had complaints at the onset, but those complaints were valid, because a very difficult situation was being placed on him, with very difficult demands being asked, and what made it more difficult was that the captain wasn't forthcoming with why. I don't hold that against Jellico though. He might have felt he didn't have time to spell it all out. He just needed it done. The result though, is that Geordi is kind of in the dark as to why so much is being asked of him. That's life. Sometimes you don't get to know why. Doesn't mean you gotta like it.

Under those circumstances, it is entirely reasonable to bark up the chain of command a little, to Jellico or Riker, to see if there's any give or leeway he can buy his team. Geordi is doing what team leaders have to do. He's advocating for his people, & at the end of the day, he still gets it done , & more than that, finds a way to begin working well with his new captain. Very well imho. Riker? Not so much lol

I found the command team of Jellico, Data & Geordi to be remarkably efficient & effective, for a bunch of guys feeling out their new dynamic
 
Don't wanna turn it into a Jellico thread but from all the series and episodes we've watched captains operate in starfleet, we rarely see crew members pushed to the point of mutiny. He's all "get it done" but throughout the episode he could have "got it done" by adapting to his new crew. That's what happens in the end when he's forced to ask for Riker's help again.
 
Don't wanna turn it into a Jellico thread but from all the series and episodes we've watched captains operate in starfleet, we rarely see crew members pushed to the point of mutiny. He's all "get it done" but throughout the episode he could have "got it done" by adapting to his new crew. That's what happens in the end when he's forced to ask for Riker's help again.
Nobody was pushed to the point of mutiny, just disgruntled about being unceremoniously ordered about. He also wasn't forced to ask Riker. It was his best option, which he assessed by... taking crew recommendations. It doesn't mean Riker was right, just because he's a good shuttle pilot. Geordi himself admits he could pilot the shuttle, but the better choice is Riker. Jellico is willing to drop ranks, swallow pride & ask, because of that fact

To put this back on topic slightly, Riker sitting in his quarters with Jellico, gloating, preening, rubbing everything he can in the ship captain's face, like this somehow validates his own bias, is without a doubt the lowliest character he has ever exhibited imho. It is not how a good person, a good officer, & most of all, someone who wants the mission to succeed, & to save a friend's life, should be behaving

Someone with whom you'd had a tragic falling out, extends the olive branch of dropping ranks so the air can be cleared, gives you the berth to speak your grievances, for the sake of amends. You know what I do in that situation? Maybe I let him know how I feel, but regardless, I immediately volunteer, without showboating, & toying with the man, because volunteering is the right thing to do. It matters more than the personal retribution of trying to humiliate the man.
 
They all have feet of clay. I think that whether someone has a flaw, is less important than whether they are aware of it, and seek to counter-act it. Captain Picard can be smug and self-righteous, but he also comes across as trying to see beyond these flaws. He is not, at bottom, an arrogant person. He would not have been able to change as much as he has, if he were. Someone self-righteous could not command the loyalty from his crew that he does.

I think he is, with all his flaws and limitations, by some distance the most admirable character in TNG. And he is unlike the rest of the crew, in that, at the end of the day, the final responsibility for the running of the Enterprise, and for its actions and omissions, rests with him. Someone who has that weight of responsibility can surely be forgiven for not being unfailingly patient, humble, consistent, or ready to heed others. He is a great character in his own right.

STM it is a greater and more valuable thing to have flaws and limitations, and turn them to good use, than to be immune to them all, and not have to struggle with them. Virtue that is not refined and purified through being tried and tested, is a lesser thing than spotless and untried virtue.
 
Keep in mind that Data did join the Borg, commandeered the ship, and was in process of shooting Kivas Fajo in cold blood.

He's one emotion chip blip away from full on Dalek.

187mdy.jpg
Ah but he wouldn't!
 
This character has only let me down a couple of times during this series, so my vote has to go to Riker. He's worked hard to get where he is and it's true ... he could've moved on in his career a lot sooner, but he loves his TNG family. He's very loyal to his friends and comrades, he's a social person and he's very popular with beautiful women across the Galaxy. It's not love but it ain't so bad ... he likes having fun! We know about his family, his upbringing ... his background. He's got talents and hobbies. And the cherry on the top is that he's not a pussy. He'll always sue for peace but if an ass kicking is in order, he's fully capable as several Klingons can attest. In short, he's a Mighty Good Man. In fact, as TNG wrapped up it's final year, Salt 'N' Pepa came out with a song to that effect:

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