Who's The Best Person?

[Mojochi]

Nobility, integrity, righteousness, generosity, kindness, loyalty, humility, reliability... On the whole, they're all incredibly good people, our TNG friends, but who among them, in the end, could sincerely be spoken of, by the others, as truly having been "the best of us"?

My vote has to go to Data. From top to bottom, in matters big or small. He exemplifies everything we should all hope to be, despite being more unlike any of us than all of them

 

[Steven P Bastien]

Data is a good choice, but the only thing is he is not limited by the same frailties as real humans are. We can't find too much fault in his actions, but if he is not driven by the same internal demons that humans are, then those great traits, become not so great, but merely the expected norm for his nature. He simply can't behave as the antithesis of what he is because there is no upside to that for him. He does not desire the same things as we do.

On actions alone, I'll say Data.

 

[Marynator]

I don't really feel Data has a lot of competition really, it'd sort of be more interesting to argue who is 2nd best, lol.

I feel he's so fascinating how he strives so much to be more human, but he's already like a perfect human being and we should all be trying to be more like him. He is kind, compassionate, sensitive, he cares about and respects all life. I feel one of his biggest moments is in "Thine Own Self" where he knows all those villagers are trying to destroy him, but he's still working to find a cure, and he goes to put it in the well and even makes it his last act before they kill him. He doesn't try to fight them or anything, he just makes sure to put in his cure and accepts what they do, you know what I mean? And he didn't even remember anything about his life, so he wasn't following orders or doctrine or anything, that's just who he truly is, and he's absolutely amazing.

 

[Armus]

Data is a good choice. As Tasha said, his innocence and curiosity makes him the most human of them all. In Skin of Evil Data tells Armus that because he has no redeeming qualities, he ought to be destroyed, which I found refreshing amidst the anti capital punishment sentiments TNG had epoused. In Pen Pals he violated the Prime Directive by reaching out to a alien girl because it was his innocent nature to answer her pleas, which really makes him endearing. In The Most Toys his programming would not allow Fajas to get away with murder and he was willing to kill him to protect life, which is a morally righteous act and brave. Although the character started to insist that he had no emotions in season 3 I never bought into that.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

Data is a good choice. As Tasha said, his innocence and curiosity makes him the most human of them all. In Skin of Evil Data tells Armus that because he has no redeeming qualities, he ought to be destroyed, which I found refreshing amidst the anti capital punishment sentiments TNG had epoused. In Pen Pals he violated the Prime Directive by reaching out to a alien girl because it was his innocent nature to answer her pleas, which really makes him endearing. In The Most Toys his programming would not allow Fajas to get away with murder and he was willing to kill him to protect life, which is a morally righteous act and brave. Although the character started to insist that he had no emotions in season 3 I never bought into that.

That's my opinion, too. My theory is that he always had emotions, but was blind to recognize them until he got the emotion chip.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Data's a tempting choice, but he's cheating, he was built without the capability of evil.

Picard's only real moral shortcoming is judgmentalism, but he's the character I see as the moral core of TNG. Out of all the characteristics you listed, humility is the only one he lacks.

 

[SpyOne]

That's my opinion, too. My theory is that he always had emotions, but was blind to recognize them until he got the emotion chip.

One of the things that happens to humans during adolescence is that, because of new pathways being formed in the brain, they begin to experience emotions much more strongly than before.
That's what I think the chip does: it let's Data enter puberty.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

My feeling on the emotion chip is, before he had emotional calculations going on in his brain like the result of an algorithm but he didn't really feel them. They were to him an abstract concept.

 

[Mojochi]

Data's a tempting choice, but he's cheating, he was built without the capability of evil.

If only all it took to be a good person was lacking the ability to be evil... Just because he's programmed to not be evil, if you can really even call it that, doesn't mean he's absolutely crafted to make the best moral choices every single time. That choice to withhold Julianna's identity from her is a mighty big grey area which I think he negotiates rather compassionately, & that's only one example. The guy literally sacrifices himself, despite something far more precious being lost than just a human life. He's willing to break with programming protocols, to destroy Fajo for the greater good. These are all tricky nuances that go way beyond what some ethical subroutine could possibly predict.

Picard's only real moral shortcoming is judgmentalism, but he's the character I see as the moral core of TNG. Out of all the characteristics you listed, humility is the only one he lacks.

He's also closed off, & that means he's basically not their friend. That's a choice he thinks is necessary, but it's pretty cold, & honestly years of his life passed while that very trait kept him at odds with his own family, whom he doesn't have the excuse of hiding behind being their commanding officer. That's just who he is. He almost never lets people in, & that means he's not there for them as much as someone who does. Data actually DOES put himself out there for people... all... the... time. I listed generosity too, & Data is more generous with himself than Picard is.

Frankly, if I'm trying to find a 2nd place trophy to hand out, because Data is so obvious a standout... I'd say maybe Guinan

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I'm saying, for 'Goodness' to be real, it has to be a choice, and Data doesn't have one. Humans have to overcome a lot of their biological impulses to be good, Data was built explicitly with all the good things about humans but without any of the bad things.

Being emotionally open isn't a criteria for being good, it's a criteria for being a good buddy. Picard is certainly a bad buddy, no question there. If you include as a criteria for being a good person, who puts moral principle over their biological impulses, I refer you to The Perfect Mate.

Guinan's also a good choice. Though she isn't put in the position to make as many moral decisions as the other characters so we have incomplete information about her. Also Beverly is the character who puts her empathy for others above all other concerns, so I'd place her in the running.

 

[Mojochi]

I'm saying, for 'Goodness' to be real, it has to be a choice, and Data doesn't have one.

Sure he does though, to an extent. He has morality safeguards for the big stuff... but so do we. We call them laws. However, Data isn't programmed to do the right thing in every circumstance, & there's been plenty of examples where he has to wrangle with ethics just as much as anybody else.

Being emotionally open isn't a criteria for being good, it's a criteria for being a good buddy.

The question is who's the best person, not just who's the most good though. Being generous with yourself & time & friendship is definitely part of that. I'm not saying it's a huge part, but it's enough to give Data a slight edge on Picard. Being a good friend imho does make someone a better person than someone who is less inclined to offer themselves up in that way

For example, everyone was willing to help Data out with advice on starting a relationship with Jenna, even Worf, for what it's worth. Picard didn't even want to go near it, & just brushed him off with a quip, albeit a funny one. Now, that's not really harmful or mean, but it isn't entirely awesome of him either

 

[STEPhon IT]

Nobility, integrity, righteousness, generosity, kindness, loyalty, humility, reliability... On the whole, they're all incredibly good people, our TNG friends, but who among them, in the end, could sincerely be spoken of, by the others, as truly having been "the best of us"?

My vote has to go to Data. From top to bottom, in matters big or small. He exemplifies everything we should all hope to be, despite being more unlike any of us than all of them

For me, it's Captain Picard. Because of his ethical embodiment to everything you mentioned above. In "The Measure of a Man", he could've simply allowed Starfleet to mass produce Data, but his ethics refused to make this a possibility without a fight... legal one.

Picard's articulate and moving monologues dealing with supreme beings and other adversaries who had and may had harbored tierney against less fortunate people shows he can defend and expose the process factors which makes them flawed and their stances should change. Picard sees people as equals and would defend them to his last breath.

What he did in "I, Borg" was a strategic mistake, but Picard's continuing development of being a man showed what he did was right thing to do, and was more than willing to accept the consequences whatever it would be. It's another reason why I hated the movie "First Contact" because it torpedoed the whole progression of the Borg and Picard's ethical character. It was as if the movie was set in another universe.

Besides that sh*tfest movie, the real Picard was the example of the best... in all of us, and it's the reason why I continue to watch TNG episodes.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Maybe a tangent but I’m interested in debating ‘Laws as morality safeguards’.

I disagree with this classification, as this is often the argument made to enforce religion as law. Also there’s millions of things that are unquestionably immoral but have no business being illegal, like adultery or various personal vices. Law when properly applied enforces people’s basic rights, to not be murdered and to have basic opportunities and such. When improperly applied it enforces unjust social divisions. Some of the most moral people in history broke laws.

Back on topic, it’s a good argument that being a good person could be more than just being a moral person and also includes just how you interact with those around you. That increases the argument for Beverly. She is a social giver whereas Data though well intentioned is a social taker.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Nobility, integrity, righteousness, generosity, kindness, loyalty, humility, reliability... On the whole, they're all incredibly good people, our TNG friends, but who among them, in the end, could sincerely be spoken of, by the others, as truly having been "the best of us"?

My vote has to go to Data. From top to bottom, in matters big or small. He exemplifies everything we should all hope to be, despite being more unlike any of us than all of them

It's always under some alien influence or other, but Data's capable of great evil. And he did try to kill Kovis Fajo.

One of my biggest issues with TNG is that they characters believe they're some evolved, better form of humanity when really they're exactly the same.

 

[ItIsGreen]

Me. I'm the best person.

If we're talking specifically from the TNG cast, then Mot the barber.

 

[Steven P Bastien]

Data's capable of great evil. And he did try to kill Kovis Fajo.

Evil? I view that as another proof of his goodness. Knowing when it is time to kill is an important part of morality; -at least for those of us that are not pure pacifists.

 

[Marynator]

After Mr Data I feel the next best person is Beverly Crusher. I totally understand what people are saying about Jean-Luc Picard, he's such a wonderful man, and incredibly wise, and I'd say he's like the perfect leader, but I believe Beverly is a better person overall. She is so very empathetic, and she's always the first you see wanting to help and sacrifice for others, she isn't concerned with rules and duties when they're interfering with showing compassion. She's always the voice in their meetings of charity, like if Picard is a paragon of justice I'd say Beverly is so for mercy, and I feel the latter makes someone more a good person?

 

[Mojochi]

Maybe a tangent but I’m interested in debating ‘Laws as morality safeguards’.

I disagree with this classification, as this is often the argument made to enforce religion as law. Also there’s millions of things that are unquestionably immoral but have no business being illegal, like adultery or various personal vices. Law when properly applied enforces people’s basic rights, to not be murdered and to have basic opportunities and such. When improperly applied it enforces unjust social divisions. Some of the most moral people in history broke laws.

It's a fair point, & I'm by far not someone who thinks laws should enforce every nuance of ethics

but what are rights, except what we socially agree are ethical to uphold & unethical to deny? It's still somewhat morality based

Back on topic, it’s a good argument that being a good person could be more than just being a moral person and also includes just how you interact with those around you. That increases the argument for Beverly. She is a social giver whereas Data though well intentioned is a social taker.

Could you give some examples of how Data is a social taker? I suspect you mostly mean that he can be something of a burden to his social circle, in his ongoing naivety, but I don't know if I'd condemn that in him as being a strike against him. Sometimes, seeing someone challenging themselves to be better than they are is inspirational to the people around them, as much as it might be a pain in the ass lol

I suspected people might champion Beverly. She IS up there with Picard, as are all of them really, & truthfully, Picard is a really great person, & I can only find that one personal flaw in him, that makes him slightly less generous

Beverly has a similar flaw too. She's kind of self-righteous. It's a pride issue imho. I'm not saying this makes her a bad person. There's only been a couple gross examples, (I Borg & The High Ground) & the rest are just little nitpicks, but you are right that the flip side is she's constantly trying to offer something for the betterment of all, & so on the whole, she certainly balances out that flaw

But to detail what I mean about her self-righteousness, Sometimes it's as simple as peer pressuring Geordi into being in her musical, even though he doesn't want to, or even more imposing was how she did everything she could to guilt Worf out of his experimental spine surgery. Granted, she may hold medical high ground in her argument, but it's still not right of her to pressure Worf to not do as he wishes, especially since he knows the risks

It's pretty commonly accepted that a patient can refuse treatment at any time. The most important thing to know about some ethical dilemmas is to know that what's right for me might not be right for someone else, & I don't think she has ever thought that

 

[JirinPanthosa]

but what are rights, except what we socially agree are ethical to uphold & unethical to deny? It's still somewhat morality based

Could you give some examples of how Data is a social taker? I suspect you mostly mean that he can be something of a burden to his social circle, in his ongoing naivety, but I don't know if I'd condemn that in him as being a strike against him.

It's a very nuanced question, the distinction between what is moral and what should be illegal. To me it's a question of objective harm to others vs subjective harm to others, but I'm not sure we can do this debate justice in this context.

It's not entirely Data's fault he's a 'social taker', I'm a bit of one myself. People who don't have the best social skills and don't provide as much social benefit to others as people provide to them. A lot of 'social takers' are really trying and have the best of intentions but don't have the skills to do better. A lot of them are just people who have been raised in a way that puts the emphasis on their own feelings and not those of others. But the objective fact is, they gain more from their friendships than their friends do, whether it's their fault or not.

 

[Mojochi]

It's a very nuanced question, the distinction between what is moral and what should be illegal. To me it's a question of objective harm to others vs subjective harm to others, but I'm not sure we can do this debate justice in this context.

I think you may be right there

It's not entirely Data's fault he's a 'social taker', I'm a bit of one myself.

Oh, there should be no confusion that I'm not anywhere near as good a person as most of them lol

People who don't have the best social skills and don't provide as much social benefit to others as people provide to them. A lot of 'social takers' are really trying and have the best of intentions but don't have the skills to do better. A lot of them are just people who have been raised in a way that puts the emphasis on their own feelings and not those of others. But the objective fact is, they gain more from their friendships than their friends do, whether it's their fault or not.

I just don't know if that applies to Data. Sure he imposes a lot on his social circle, from being naïve & socially under-skilled, but I feel like he also is so much more willing to be available to his social circle too

Take Data in Descent, vs Geordi in Interface. Two circumstances within a very short period of time during their friendship, where in Descent, Data is confronted with a personal issue that he can only resolve by putting himself at risk (Disengaging the holodeck safeties) & Geordi refuses to help him. Now, conversely, in Interface, Geordi is the one faced with a personal issue he feels he can only resolve by putting himself at risk, & despite his objections, Data decides to support his friend in it, rather than abandon him, in his moment of need.

In this case, Data is putting aside all of his own interests & thinking only of his friend, & how that friend would be worse off without his involvement. This kind of selflessness is a hallmark for him, even with strangers like the villagers in Thine Own Self, or the little girl in Pen Pals, & I honestly don't think that's just programming which is designed by its creator to favor the well being of others over Data, because you can literally hear him working it out, on a conscious level, in a situation like Inheritance

I find that I am having difficulty separating what would be best for her, from what would be best for me....
If she knew she were an android, she and I would have something to share. I would no longer be alone in the universe.

They bounce that around the table a bit with everyone weighing in, but in the end, Data makes the hard choice to be untruthful, to offer her something that's better for her than it is for him, & I don't even know if I fully agree with it, because I think she should know, but at the same time, that's what I think about what I would want, not what she would think about what she would want, & I think Data is actually weighing that, maybe better than me

Ultimately, it's hard to weigh, but I feel like Data is so much more a benefit to the people he knows, for having known him, than he is a burden. Like I said earlier, even his unskilled naivety tends to be an inspiration to people around him. Man, if I were Barclay or Geordi, & I saw Data taking a chance on a relationship with Jenna, even though it's most likely doomed, I'd totally find more courage to be doing that myself. Hell, if Data is willing to take those chances, what's stopping me? & I don't buy that it's because Data can't be hurt. That dude still thinks about Tasha, & frankly, the only reason they were intimate is because she wanted it, & he let it happen solely on those grounds. All he saw was a friend in need, & nothing else mattered