Turnabout Intruder

[Marsden]

While I know what your saying, and agree they may have been intended to be the same thing, as I said earlier in the thread in context the two are very different things. General Order Seven might specifically seem to apply to Talos IV alone, or at least that's how it's presented to us: a very specific scenario involved in (wilfully) breaking the most highest of curfews placed in order to protect outsiders from the dangers posed by the powerful (and antagonistic) Talosians. General Order 4 is presented as being some kind of on-board-ship law, something that could be pulled out and used in some mutinous circumstance or other. It's not necessarily used often, it might not be used at all. But that it exists is troubling, and says that in Kirk's time at least there's still a certain brutality to the human condition.

There is a contradiction between "The Menagerie", which says blatantly that GO7 was the only death penalty still left on the books, and "Turnabout Intruder", which implies that GO4 is also a death penalty. But we must assume that in-universe each are separate and both carry the same sentence.

That's rather speciest of you, Humans are not the only Federation members, are they?

To any number of the other Federation members, no death penalty may be seen as an absurdity, so the compromise was to have just one on the books. Unless Starfleet is a Homo Sapiens club only.

 

[Lance]

That's rather speciest of you, Humans are not the only Federation members, are they?

To any number of the other Federation members, no death penalty may be seen as an absurdity, so the compromise was to have just one on the books. Unless Starfleet is a Homo Sapiens club only.

Fair point, and well made.

It does seem absurd to me that humanity would persist with death penalties when they're supposed to be so 'enlightened', but I can buy that maybe other species/cultures might still require something on the statute books.

Nevertheless its still something I'd find troubling. The UFP presents itself as a benign forward-thinking entity, as opposed to the brutal Klingons or Romulans, and yet it still supports some flexibility on state-sponsored murder.

 

[UnknownSample]

Well, imprisonment is state-sponsored kidnapping... there had to have been some very specific practical reason for that death penalty for Talos IV, that we don't know about.

 

[johnnybear]

Most western societies today ( I'm tempted to say 'all the civilized ones anyway', just to be ultra controversial ) have come to the realization that state-sponsored murder is barbaric, backward, medieval, something to be ashamed . The death penalty, struck from the books, no exceptions. If 23rd century humanity is even half as enlightened as they proclaim to be, then the very existence of General Order 4 is a contradiction of terms.

Thing is most of the population want the death penalty restored! Especially in the cases of child murder and unprovoked attacks upon the public and the police!
JB

 

[gottacook]

I have this episode on at the moment (H&I broadcast of remastered version). There are some things that just don't make sense but which I haven't noticed before. Such as: "Captain's Log, stardate 5930.3. The results of Dr. McCoy's examination have given me complete confidence in myself. My fears are past. I shall function freely as the captain. I am the captain of the Enterprise in fact." In what universe would Janice (as Kirk) record a log entry admitting to what she'd done?

Earlier, Kirk (as Janice) somehow makes a log entry as well: "Captain's log, stardate unknown. I have lost track of time. I am still held captive in a strange body and separated from all my crew." No recording apparatus was accessible to her and she had been strapped down, so how would she have made this entry?

Also, Janice (as Kirk) starts out calling McCoy "Dr. McCoy," sometimes twice in a row, but later calls him Bones in two different scenes. How would she have learned that Kirk calls McCoy "Bones"?

The two occasions of "Bones" creeping into Janice (as Kirk)'s dialogue might be a result of ordinary late-third-season carelessness, but the log entries are difficult to attribute to that alone.

 

[Maurice]

I have this episode on at the moment (H&I broadcast of remastered version). There are some things that just don't make sense but which I haven't noticed before. Such as: "Captain's Log, stardate 5930.3. The results of Dr. McCoy's examination have given me complete confidence in myself. My fears are past. I shall function freely as the captain. I am the captain of the Enterprise in fact." In what universe would Janice (as Kirk) record a log entry admitting to what she'd done?

Earlier, Kirk (as Janice) somehow makes a log entry as well: "Captain's log, stardate unknown. I have lost track of time. I am still held captive in a strange body and separated from all my crew." No recording apparatus was accessible to her and she had been strapped down, so how would she have made this entry?

Also, Janice (as Kirk) starts out calling McCoy "Dr. McCoy," sometimes twice in a row, but later calls him Bones in two different scenes. How would she have learned that Kirk calls McCoy "Bones"?

The two occasions of "Bones" creeping into Janice (as Kirk)'s dialogue might be a result of ordinary late-third-season carelessness, but the log entries are difficult to attribute to that alone.

Ahem. Note the date of the previous post.

 

[Marsden]

I have this episode on at the moment (H&I broadcast of remastered version). There are some things that just don't make sense but which I haven't noticed before. Such as: "Captain's Log, stardate 5930.3. The results of Dr. McCoy's examination have given me complete confidence in myself. My fears are past. I shall function freely as the captain. I am the captain of the Enterprise in fact." In what universe would Janice (as Kirk) record a log entry admitting to what she'd done?

Earlier, Kirk (as Janice) somehow makes a log entry as well: "Captain's log, stardate unknown. I have lost track of time. I am still held captive in a strange body and separated from all my crew." No recording apparatus was accessible to her and she had been strapped down, so how would she have made this entry?

Also, Janice (as Kirk) starts out calling McCoy "Dr. McCoy," sometimes twice in a row, but later calls him Bones in two different scenes. How would she have learned that Kirk calls McCoy "Bones"?

The two occasions of "Bones" creeping into Janice (as Kirk)'s dialogue might be a result of ordinary late-third-season carelessness, but the log entries are difficult to attribute to that alone.

A lot of the log entries are in the past tense that couldn't be happening when they are shown in the episode. Most that are had Roddenberry's involvement and this episode did, too.

Captain's log, additional entry. Since our mission was routine, we had beamed down to the planet without suspicion. We were unaware each member of the landing party was seeing a different woman, a different Nancy Crater.

Captain's Log, supplemental. Our orbit tightening. Our need for efficiency, critical. But unknown to us, a totally new and unusual disease has been brought aboard.

Captain's Log, stardate 1672.1. Specimen-gathering mission on planet Alpha 177. Unknown to any of us during this time, a duplicate of me, some strange alter ego, had been created by the transporter malfunction.

If these are recreations after the fact, like a dramatization, then it's the narrator helping things along, I think. Even the opening mission statement in the beginning is a kind of narration and quite probably after the fact.

 

[Methuselah Flint]

One error was Spock said it's the first mite they've encountered mind transference. But that's not true. It happened in the S2 episode, Return to Tomorrow

I try and interpret it to mean total transfer from one living body to another living body. Clutching at straws, I know, but in RTT, Kirk et al weren't transferred into Sargon et al's living bodies, rather now-empty receptacles, so transfer wasn't fully two-way as such, thus not 'total', as Spock says.

 

[gottacook]

A lot of the log entries are in the past tense that couldn't be happening when they are shown in the episode. Most that are had Roddenberry's involvement and this episode did, too. ... If these are recreations after the fact, like a dramatization, then it's the narrator helping things along, I think. Even the opening mission statement in the beginning is a kind of narration and quite probably after the fact.

Yes, I had remembered the second of the three log entries you list here ("The Naked Time"), but that one as well as the first one were preceded by an overt indicator ("additional entry," "supplemental") that it could have been recorded after the fact. I do understand the "omniscient narrator" aspect to all three, as well as the one beginning "Beaten and sobbing, Finney..." in "Court Martial."

By contrast, neither of the "Turnabout Intruder" log entries by the switched Kirk and switched Janice could or would have been made after the events of the story.

 

[Steven P Bastien]

What are the big complaints about this episode.

For me it was just too unbelievable. Somehow the combination of an unlikely find of a working identity transfer machine, combined with such a sick woman who happens to have been intimate with Kirk, combined with her henchman (granted he was in love her) that would do her bidding including murder, combined with the fact that the henchman was willing to let her become a man (did I mention he was in love ... er ... with a woman) etc.

As I write that, I realize I could write something similar even for my favorite episodes. Perhaps in the end I will change my answer to the fact that there are no likable characters in this episode. Even our normal favorite characters are somehow not quite themselves.

This episode is just wrong on many different levels. It's hard to explain. If I watch that episode I feel depressed. And maybe that is the real problem ... ending the series on such a sour note.

 

[GNDN18]

This episode is just wrong on many different levels. It's hard to explain. If I watch that episode I feel depressed. And maybe that is the real problem ... ending the series on such a sour note.

First episode- fun!

Last episode-not fun


ETA

 

[Marsden]

For me it was just too unbelievable. Somehow the combination of an unlikely find of a working identity transfer machine, combined with such a sick woman who happens to have been intimate with Kirk, combined with her henchman (granted he was in love her) that would do her bidding including murder, combined with the fact that the henchman was willing to let her become a man (did I mention he was in love ... er ... with a woman) etc.

As I write that, I realize I could write something similar even for my favorite episodes. Perhaps in the end I will change my answer to the fact that there are no likable characters in this episode. Even our normal favorite characters are somehow not quite themselves.

This episode is just wrong on many different levels. It's hard to explain. If I watch that episode I feel depressed. And maybe that is the real problem ... ending the series on such a sour note.

I thought the regular characters were actually really good, Chekov and Sulu got a moment, Spock, Bones and Scotty were good. And Sandra Smith is my 2nd favorite professional actor to portray James T Kirk. She did a better job at being Kirk than Shatner did at being Lester, unfortunately. And no argument, it was a downer ending, sometimes those are good but not for a final episode. Of course, being CANCELLED is a big downer, so you'll have that.

I love Scotty's little speech and "It'll stick in his craw" That's one of my favorite lines.

 

[Steven P Bastien]

I thought the regular characters were actually really good, Chekov and Sulu got a moment, Spock, Bones and Scotty were good. And Sandra Smith is my 2nd favorite professional actor to portray James T Kirk. She did a better job at being Kirk than Shatner did at being Lester, unfortunately. And no argument, it was a downer ending, sometimes those are good but not for a final episode. Of course, being CANCELLED is a big downer, so you'll have that.

I love Scotty's little speech and "It'll stick in his craw" That's one of my favorite lines.

I have nothing bad to say about the acting or the moments the characters had. I meant only that all the characters (as defined by the script) were not likable (to me of course). That's a killer for any story when you can't find any character to like. Actually, the acting makes the best of the weird story and makes an episode that is passable and less objectionable if it were not the last episode.

The story needed some hero or strong character to resolve the situation. Instead, it is only the failing of the full personality transfer, caused by the fact that Kirk (in Janice's body) was not killed in time, that resolved the problem. It was basically everyone failing (including the murderers) until time was up. Spock, who could have been the lion that charges, because he "knows", lays down like a lamb. And for all of the furor of Sulu, Chekov, Scotty and Bones, they come up lame too and get outsmarted. And, the stupid red-shirts were going to let it all happen?

 

[johnnybear]

I thought it was an okay episode that really wasn't meant to be the final episode, but it is and somehow it makes it all the more special! The discovery of the transfer machine is the basis of the story and was Janice Lester even really ill? Mentally maybe but not physically as once Kirk is inside her body he doesn't seem to be as ill as she was? It's also one of the few episodes to reference past adventures of the Enterprise as well!
JB

 

[Timo]

By contrast, neither of the "Turnabout Intruder" log entries by the switched Kirk and switched Janice could or would have been made after the events of the story.

Hmm. Surely Kirk-in-Lester's-Body would add exactly the sort of ex-post-facto narration to this part of the logs, to reflect his confusion? This regardless of who he thinks gets to read the logs. If it's his superiors, then all the better for him to emphasize how handicapped he was in taking control of the situation at that point, and thus why he failed. If it's the ghostwriter of his autobiography, then the above counts double, plus is dramatically interesting.

Lester dictating her triumphant log in her cabin between the scenes (either shortly before or after the point where the voice-over accompanies the visual part of the story) seems plausible, too. The characters switch locations there, after all, and IIRC some even switch their clothes!

For me it was just too unbelievable. Somehow the combination of an unlikely find of a working identity transfer machine, combined with such a sick woman who happens to have been intimate with Kirk, combined with her henchman (granted he was in love her) that would do her bidding including murder, combined with the fact that the henchman was willing to let her become a man (did I mention he was in love ... er ... with a woman) etc.

I guess I'm not seeing the coincidence here. Janice Lester doesn't really want to become Kirk. She just wants to be with Kirk - becoming Kirk (and ruining his life on the side) is the second-best thing, something the unexpected finding of the alien tech allows her to do instead of her primary goal of getting Kirk to abandon the world of starship captains and return to her. Had Lester found alien technology that would allow her to reach her primary coal... Now that would be coincidence. Or then the result of years upon years of obsessive searching, which is what her backstory also allows for.

Psychologically, it appears satisfying to meet an adversary who so demonstrably easily wraps men around her little finger, and then have her motivated by her failure to do the same to our main protagonist... Frustration culminating in homicidal insanity is on the table from this point on.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Firebird]

A lot of the log entries are in the past tense that couldn't be happening when they are shown in the episode. Most that are had Roddenberry's involvement and this episode did, too.

Captain's log, additional entry. Since our mission was routine, we had beamed down to the planet without suspicion. We were unaware each member of the landing party was seeing a different woman, a different Nancy Crater.

Captain's Log, supplemental. Our orbit tightening. Our need for efficiency, critical. But unknown to us, a totally new and unusual disease has been brought aboard.

Captain's Log, stardate 1672.1. Specimen-gathering mission on planet Alpha 177. Unknown to any of us during this time, a duplicate of me, some strange alter ego, had been created by the transporter malfunction.

If these are recreations after the fact, like a dramatization, then it's the narrator helping things along, I think. Even the opening mission statement in the beginning is a kind of narration and quite probably after the fact.

Those early logs are definitely more of a storytelling cheat for orienting the audience after a commercial break. Later in the run, the logs took on the common format of an in-universe written/spoken entry describing the mission events. I could be wrong, but the most recent version of the early style of Captain's Log I can think of was In the Pale Moonlight on DS9, with Sisko narrating the story for the audience.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

First episode- fun!
View attachment 4654
Last episode-not fun
View attachment 4655

I never noticed that "bookend" symmetry before. I'm surprised they didn't save time and money in "Turnabout" by cutting in a brief bit of stock footage from "Corbomite" and re-arranging the dialog to accommodate the cheat. They used several other shipboard shots as stock footage, including the crowd-fainting scene in Sickbay. This would have been a natural.

 

[Phaser Two]

A lot of the log entries are in the past tense that couldn't be happening when they are shown in the episode. Most that are had Roddenberry's involvement and this episode did, too.

Captain's log, additional entry. Since our mission was routine, we had beamed down to the planet without suspicion. We were unaware each member of the landing party was seeing a different woman, a different Nancy Crater.

Captain's Log, supplemental. Our orbit tightening. Our need for efficiency, critical. But unknown to us, a totally new and unusual disease has been brought aboard.

Captain's Log, stardate 1672.1. Specimen-gathering mission on planet Alpha 177. Unknown to any of us during this time, a duplicate of me, some strange alter ego, had been created by the transporter malfunction.

If these are recreations after the fact, like a dramatization, then it's the narrator helping things along, I think. Even the opening mission statement in the beginning is a kind of narration and quite probably after the fact.

Yup. Phil Farrand, as much as I loved his work, had continuing issues with how Kirk or Spock could be recording a log when his mouth wasn't moving, there was no tricorder, etc. I sort of always wished Phil would just move along to something more interesting (because he thought of so many such thIngs, and the log nitpicks took up valuable time/space better used on those more interesting observations). It's a narrative device, and if one needs an in-universe explanation, then it's that the person recording the log, if not seen doing do on screen, recorded it later to let Starfleet know what happened, and maybe used the present tense for whatever reason. Perhaps Starfleet wanted it that way. It really isn't worth getting too worked up over; just my two cents, of course.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

It's a narrative device, and if one needs an in-universe explanation, then it's that the person recording the log, if not seen doing do on screen, recorded it later to let Starfleet know what happened, and maybe used the present tense for whatever reason. Perhaps Starfleet wanted it that way. It really isn't worth getting too worked up over; just my two cents, of course.

That's right. And there's a long-established technique in film where you see one thing while hearing another. The most obvious example is seeing the exterior of a skyscraper, and you can already hear sound from the scene inside the office, like a phone ringing or a conversation in progress. It gives the narrative a "sweeping along" feeling, like we're not wasting any time and we trust the audience to get it.

 

[1001001]

I have this episode on at the moment (H&I broadcast of remastered version). There are some things that just don't make sense but which I haven't noticed before. Such as: "Captain's Log, stardate 5930.3. The results of Dr. McCoy's examination have given me complete confidence in myself. My fears are past. I shall function freely as the captain. I am the captain of the Enterprise in fact." In what universe would Janice (as Kirk) record a log entry admitting to what she'd done?

Earlier, Kirk (as Janice) somehow makes a log entry as well: "Captain's log, stardate unknown. I have lost track of time. I am still held captive in a strange body and separated from all my crew." No recording apparatus was accessible to her and she had been strapped down, so how would she have made this entry?

Also, Janice (as Kirk) starts out calling McCoy "Dr. McCoy," sometimes twice in a row, but later calls him Bones in two different scenes. How would she have learned that Kirk calls McCoy "Bones"?

The two occasions of "Bones" creeping into Janice (as Kirk)'s dialogue might be a result of ordinary late-third-season carelessness, but the log entries are difficult to attribute to that alone.

In the future, please don't bump threads that have been dead for over a year.

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Thanks.