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Who should become the next Doctor after Whittaker?


My point is that I do look at it from the other side, and as to your comments on role models and identification, the very argument in favour of a female Doctor is predicated on the idea that girls can only have role models without penises. As you put it.
Aside from the fact that I don’t think that either side always needs role models of the same gender, I also accept that sometimes, to the young in particular, this is true.
Which is what leads me to the conclusion that since there are already smart, intelligent, peaceful female role models (not least as many of these traits are seen as feminine in the first place) in place, (Hermione, there’s a nice easy mainstream one) I have to conclude that the Doctor is better used as he always has been, particularly now.
After all, what will help equalitarianism more? A few thousand boys growing up to be more like the Doctor, or a few thousand girls doing the same? While I agree female instigated violence seems to be on the rise, or is at least reported more often, it is not for want of role model characters, and it seems to be considered that boys tend to emulate these things more in general. There are also far more boys without fathers (and girls without fathers) than girls (or boys) without mothers. Whilst it’s somewhat ridiculous that TV characters should fill that void, here we are regardless (teachers also skew majority female, particularly at a primary level.)
You seem to still not read what I am saying, instead putting your own spin on it through assumptions.
This position of Doctor seems to have been put up on a pedestal alongside world leaders etc, that it is a great victory for a cause to cast a woman. I am not sure either of these things can be true, or that if they are, the world is in worse shape than I thought. It’s all about stereotypes of fans I suppose. SF and F is this imaginary boys only club, at least in part because for a long time girls didn’t often like it much. And the boys who like this get all rage at their space being changed, and the girls who like to have things to fight see it as a battle. The boys and girls who have always been in it and didn’t particularly see it as a fight or some silly gendered thing carry on quietly as we always have, and wonder why these two sets of strange people are making such a ruckus and disturb our peace. It’s all ridiculous, but much of the modern era is. Binary and adversarial.

I am sure Jodie will do her best, I hope the writing team does as well, and I am certainly not angry about it etc. I have tried to answer your questions, even as you refuse to answer mine and make odd assumption. I suppose it was arrogant of me to try to gently make a point that even Peter Davison couldn’t really, but it’s a good point, and something that should inform the series as it goes on. The Doctor never alienated women (that same issue of Skaro featured a girl remembering how she used to dress up as Pertwee. I think there was a core cadre of lesbian (and gay) fans who very much used identifying with the somewhat asexual Doctor as part of their growing up.) and the idea that the character did seems to be a modern invention. Or perhaps only NuWho does. Who knows.

I wish for equality, think Women absolutely should be given a fair chance at things, much as men should be, from all backgrounds etc. We are all basically the same, and should work together. That I have to keep stating this is a sad reflection on the politicisation on the discussion of a character, that it’s ok to suggest motivations that are unpleasant, and to turn it into the front in a war that shouldn’t be.

After Jodie? I just hope there’s another Doctor.[/QUOTE]

I do feel I answered your question. But it’s not in the way you wanted me to.
 
As a male, it is hard for me sometimes, not all the time, but mostly, to identify with a female character. My gender gives me a different perspective, and what's really going to tell all, is the percentage of viewership by males in a female led series. To date, it would be interesting to know how many male viewers watch predominantly female led shows over the ones starring males. That could be an indicator of what the viewership with the doctor's gender reassignment spells for ratings figures come mid season.
 
The only argument I could make for a male character needed as a role model would be that the Doctor has traits that is seen as soft or wrong for men to have thus when we see them in a positive light it means something. Yet if a female Doctor shows those traits they are common from what you expect to see from female characters thus maybe the power of the message is lost because it borders more on cliche than something unique. Is she going to be anymore funny or quirky than Kemmy Schmidt or Kate McKinnon on SNL just to give a few examples? Is their a quirky soft male character out their that sort of fits this concept? Maybe the characters on "Sillicon Valley" but i'm trying to think of some others.

Me Personally I'm always more interested in the alienness of the character and the sense of humor so I don't really look at the character as role model but more as a kind of unique Sci-Fi lead compared ot many others much like the very premise of the show. Many of my role models tend to be people who are connected to comedy such as actors and also I admire certain writers and directors. I sometimes find the shows nature to be a role model in itself more than just a individual character so maybe that is how she can work as a role model for boys. Not the character but the whole premise and themes of the show. Other shows I would put on that list would be Trek,Community,Mystery Science Theater 3000 just to name a few.

Jason
 
Oh dear, the sexism here is so very unfortunate, I'm feeling rather uncomfortable being here. I was so expecting better?

You'll probably just dismiss my opinions because I'm not a long time fan of Doctor Who. I've watched some episodes but I never really got into it before, but I'm feeling excited now to start watching in October, and I can't say I'd be getting into it at all if we weren't getting a woman Doctor. I don't feel there's a risk for the show, like maybe they'll lose some misogynist viewers clinging to a dying patriarchy, but they'll get new viewers like myself.

Young boys do need to see positive female role models, it's so very important. Your saying "This is off limits! Men only!" is telling boys not to respect women, that we aren't good enough to be someone like the Doctor, that some things belong only to men. That's so very absolutely sexist, you can say you're not a sexist, or call yourself progressive, or whatever, but attitudes like that clearly show otherwise. If you have a problem with a woman being cast as the Doctor, because she's a women, then you're sexist, period.

Woke and progressive aren't the same thing, you can be progressive and not woke. You're woke when you realize so much of what you thought was true is really wrong and see what's really going on in our world. Sorry but you're not looking at things from all perspectives, you're looking just from a male perspective.

I'm so very sorry if I'm sounding mean, I just felt my stomach turning at some of the messages I read.

I feel the next five doctors should all be women. How about women of different races, and sexual orientations, and a transgender woman? I feel there's so much work still to be done for some people to really accept equality.
 
Helen Mirren popped to mind, but then, she’s not unattractive by most standards.

Do you mean physically unattractive or one with an unattractive personality?

There’s a British comedian, can’t remember her name, she might not be considered physically attractive to many, but I find her so funny and sharp that’s its hard to not find her attractive. She’s older, I would guess in her 60s, an out lesbian, a little rounder.

She would be a great Doctor. Can’t remember her damn name. She pops up on Graham Norton quite a bit.
It's a minefield defining that whole attractive thing but it's like female currency in the entertainment industry is based on talent and attraction, I would suggest a bit more than their male counterparts. And yes I know I have fallen personally foul of citing attractiveness in others but to rise above it, I at least recognise it. It becomes more notable with actresses, their currency as they age. Do want to add it is not unique to women as I honestly feel some of the Peter Capaldi jokes in show grew to be a little cheap.

Helen Mirren is gorgeous and there I go too giving her a tick of approval for her appearance. I think the personality of any Doctor should be energetic that is a thread of character that has emerged throughout regenerations. Really someone like Dawn French who has this quirky personality, though I think she is barely 60 and looks pretty cool.
 
Oh dear, the sexism here is so very unfortunate, I'm feeling rather uncomfortable being here. I was so expecting better?

You'll probably just dismiss my opinions because I'm not a long time fan of Doctor Who. I've watched some episodes but I never really got into it before, but I'm feeling excited now to start watching in October, and I can't say I'd be getting into it at all if we weren't getting a woman Doctor. I don't feel there's a risk for the show, like maybe they'll lose some misogynist viewers clinging to a dying patriarchy, but they'll get new viewers like myself.

Young boys do need to see positive female role models, it's so very important. Your saying "This is off limits! Men only!" is telling boys not to respect women, that we aren't good enough to be someone like the Doctor, that some things belong only to men. That's so very absolutely sexist, you can say you're not a sexist, or call yourself progressive, or whatever, but attitudes like that clearly show otherwise. If you have a problem with a woman being cast as the Doctor, because she's a women, then you're sexist, period.

Woke and progressive aren't the same thing, you can be progressive and not woke. You're woke when you realize so much of what you thought was true is really wrong and see what's really going on in our world. Sorry but you're not looking at things from all perspectives, you're looking just from a male perspective.

I'm so very sorry if I'm sounding mean, I just felt my stomach turning at some of the messages I read.

I feel the next five doctors should all be women. How about women of different races, and sexual orientations, and a transgender woman? I feel there's so much work still to be done for some people to really accept equality.

I like the idea of the doctor being a women. Don't agree about 5 in a role. I prefer the take turns aproach. I also think boys do have female role models of a sort but it's always been characters like Ripley,Sarah Connors,Buffy,Xenia. TO be honest i'm not sure how much even a male doctor has been as a role model but that might actually be different if your British and have grown up with the character. Not sure what impact it would have on American boys. I'm not super familar with Britsh tv. Has the quirky but funny female lead become something you see alot on British tv? It's actually becoming very common on American TV. and most of them have made for some great tv. Shows like "Veep","30 Rock" "Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt","New GIrl","Glow" just to name a few. Not sure if they have become role models but they have helped break down the sterotype that women can't be funny. If your into comedy then I guess that counts as being something of a role model but i'm not sure if has translated to how I think we are defining it and that is someone who impacts they way they conduct their own lives. Which to me seems to be a tall order for any fictional character. Might be different with Sports stars. I guess the other missing thing is people have to be able to relate to a character on some level and see part of themselves in the character which might also play a role in people having problems getting role models from different genders. Guys tend to relate better to the Kick-ass female characters who or the dirty, gritty comic as oposed to the quirky kind.

Jason
 
I still think Craig Ferguson should be given a shot....
But so should Catherine Tate...that would be awesome!

;)
 
It's a minefield defining that whole attractive thing but it's like female currency in the entertainment industry is based on talent and attraction, I would suggest a bit more than their male counterparts.

I would agree.
Attractiveness IS difficult, in some ways, when you you look at older actors. Because while some (male and female) may not be as physically attractive, they maybe personality attractive. If you are an actor and you have been working into your 60s, there's something attractive about you, something charming.

Miranda Hart might not be considered physically attractive, but, I find her utterly charming and attractive.

And yes I know I have fallen personally foul of citing attractiveness in others but to rise above it, I at least recognise it. It becomes more notable with actresses, their currency as they age. Do want to add it is not unique to women as I honestly feel some of the Peter Capaldi jokes in show grew to be a little cheap.

Helen Mirren is gorgeous and there I go too giving her a tick of approval for her appearance. I think the personality of any Doctor should be energetic that is a thread of character that has emerged throughout regenerations. Really someone like Dawn French who has this quirky personality, though I think she is barely 60 and looks pretty cool.

Dawn French would be fun. I wonder if she has the drama chops for it?

Though, I would be shocked if they offered the role to anyone over the age of 60, given the physical demands of the role. (And, of course, someone would be arguing behind closed doors that a 60 something wouldn't be physically appealing enough....)
 
As a male, it is hard for me sometimes, not all the time, but mostly, to identify with a female character. My gender gives me a different perspective, and what's really going to tell all, is the percentage of viewership by males in a female led series. To date, it would be interesting to know how many male viewers watch predominantly female led shows over the ones starring males. That could be an indicator of what the viewership with the doctor's gender reassignment spells for ratings figures come mid season.
I cut you some slack here, lol. I'll tell you why. Because the Doctor has always been of one gender for thirteen or whatever outings. So having a change any change is literally a shake up. AND it is not wrong to want or be proud of your own gender being in the role. It's funny but when I watched Elementary I was a little confronted by this young Sherlock and young female Watson! I was sure Conan Doyle had not written them as such. I liked the interplay from the books of the way these two men were, the natural relationship between two people with the gender and lifestyle profiles Doyle wrote for them. Yet once I let Elementary play it was its own story and I enjoyed it.

With Doctor Who they just have to nail the character and not make a big deal of the shell. Yesterday Pearl Mackie (Bill Potts) was on Studio 10 (Oz morning show). She said she didn't want her character's sexuality to be a story in the show. That was important to her that it just was accepted. Obviously Doctor Who being female is going to be commented about in the first few scenes (he always comments about the new him/her) but then it should be secondary. Just as it should be if The Doctor becomes male again.

As for the ratings? Oh boy!
 
Oh dear, the sexism here is so very unfortunate, I'm feeling rather uncomfortable being here. I was so expecting better?

You'll probably just dismiss my opinions because I'm not a long time fan of Doctor Who. I've watched some episodes but I never really got into it before, but I'm feeling excited now to start watching in October, and I can't say I'd be getting into it at all if we weren't getting a woman Doctor. I don't feel there's a risk for the show, like maybe they'll lose some misogynist viewers clinging to a dying patriarchy, but they'll get new viewers like myself.

Young boys do need to see positive female role models, it's so very important. Your saying "This is off limits! Men only!" is telling boys not to respect women, that we aren't good enough to be someone like the Doctor, that some things belong only to men. That's so very absolutely sexist, you can say you're not a sexist, or call yourself progressive, or whatever, but attitudes like that clearly show otherwise. If you have a problem with a woman being cast as the Doctor, because she's a women, then you're sexist, period.

Woke and progressive aren't the same thing, you can be progressive and not woke. You're woke when you realize so much of what you thought was true is really wrong and see what's really going on in our world. Sorry but you're not looking at things from all perspectives, you're looking just from a male perspective.

I'm so very sorry if I'm sounding mean, I just felt my stomach turning at some of the messages I read.

I feel the next five doctors should all be women. How about women of different races, and sexual orientations, and a transgender woman? I feel there's so much work still to be done for some people to really accept equality.

I didn’t say boys don’t need female role models (one of my own was Anne of Green Gables, and another later one was Artemisia Gentileschi.) I said that they need male role models of a type so rare as to really only have the Doctor as a decent example. I suppose the next closest would be some of the Harry Potter characters, but they are much more openly flawed. And no, I don’t have any problem with Jodie’s casting, I just think that on balance maybe it would have better to keep the Doctor as is. More female role models, more female led SF&F would be an awesome thing...it has a good track record, but it’s been a long time since Buffy and that has been somewhat tarnished. I am talking about the character and what it represents, not about sexism etc as a whole across TV etc. Just the one character. I am not even looking it from the perspective of an adult fan in many ways when I think of it in this way. I think trying to shape the TV show as adult fans is a bit...disingenuous. The other media...sure, but the TV show should always try to stay close to its roots.

So no, it’s not sexism because my issue is not that ‘the Doctor shouldn’t be a woman’ but is ‘the character of the Doctor serves a valuable and important role as a male’ which is actually an entirely different thing, when you think of it that way. Sorry you feel in some way excluded by my comments, as I have said, I do not in any way consider women inferior to men. That is an interpretation that comes from people assuming anyone who in any way doubts this casting, must be doing so for sexist reasons. I don’t speak for others, but my small doubt, my reasoning, is in no motivated by anything like that. There is no collection burning, no swearing off the series from my quarter (though I did wander off for a bit part way through Capaldis run...before catching up on iPlayer.) no rage etc. As I have said because of the original post, I think it’s...insulting really...to be considering her replacement before she’s even started. I have significantly less faith in the writers and her costume, than I do in Jodie’s ability as an actress or the Doctor as a female character, I can assure you of that much.

Aside from that, welcome to the fandom, in a nice way, and I highly recommend the older novels from the ‘wilderness years’ not least as more of them come from differing perspectives. Two female writers of note would be Lloyd Rose and Kate Orman, and Jac Rayner is a nice person and wrote good audio adaptations, though I don’t think I read any of her novels, because I think she started in the NuWho range. For strong female characters in general, I highly recommend the eighth doctor novels, but it’s easy to get lost in those and they can be hard to come by. However, they have Sam, and Compassion, two of my favourite companions, both female, and both of whom are shall we say...sampled, by the new series.

Have fun.
 
It's a minefield defining that whole attractive thing but it's like female currency in the entertainment industry is based on talent and attraction, I would suggest a bit more than their male counterparts. And yes I know I have fallen personally foul of citing attractiveness in others but to rise above it, I at least recognise it. It becomes more notable with actresses, their currency as they age. Do want to add it is not unique to women as I honestly feel some of the Peter Capaldi jokes in show grew to be a little cheap.

Helen Mirren is gorgeous and there I go too giving her a tick of approval for her appearance. I think the personality of any Doctor should be energetic that is a thread of character that has emerged throughout regenerations. Really someone like Dawn French who has this quirky personality, though I think she is barely 60 and looks pretty cool.

Sandy Toksvig is probably the graham norton guest. She’s not really an actress as such.
 
I like the idea of the doctor being a women. Don't agree about 5 in a role. I prefer the take turns aproach. I also think boys do have female role models of a sort but it's always been characters like Ripley,Sarah Connors,Buffy,Xenia. TO be honest i'm not sure how much even a male doctor has been as a role model but that might actually be different if your British and have grown up with the character. Not sure what impact it would have on American boys. I'm not super familar with Britsh tv. Has the quirky but funny female lead become something you see alot on British tv? It's actually becoming very common on American TV. and most of them have made for some great tv. Shows like "Veep","30 Rock" "Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt","New GIrl","Glow" just to name a few. Not sure if they have become role models but they have helped break down the sterotype that women can't be funny. If your into comedy then I guess that counts as being something of a role model but i'm not sure if has translated to how I think we are defining it and that is someone who impacts they way they conduct their own lives. Which to me seems to be a tall order for any fictional character. Might be different with Sports stars. I guess the other missing thing is people have to be able to relate to a character on some level and see part of themselves in the character which might also play a role in people having problems getting role models from different genders. Guys tend to relate better to the Kick-ass female characters who or the dirty, gritty comic as oposed to the quirky kind.

Jason

It is different if you grew up with the character. And we have tons of ‘quirky’ female leads, it seems to be the in thing since the eighties at least. Maybe even older than that.
I don’t know about just going for the fighter types as female characters, but in some respects I am atypical there. Ripley was very popular with my teenage friends. There’s that fin line between role model and crush though, I expect that works both ways, looking at the swooning over Tennant, (and elsewhere the Cumberbatch fans...and what was that actor that had something called an Oestrogen Brigade following him? Was it Duchovny? Hmm.)
The sports stars is an interesting point, because for a long time Doctor Who was the sort of thing that was for people who don’t much care for sport. Again, he just...fills a different role over here I think.
 
I cut you some slack here, lol. I'll tell you why. Because the Doctor has always been of one gender for thirteen or whatever outings. So having a change any change is literally a shake up. AND it is not wrong to want or be proud of your own gender being in the role. It's funny but when I watched Elementary I was a little confronted by this young Sherlock and young female Watson! I was sure Conan Doyle had not written them as such. I liked the interplay from the books of the way these two men were, the natural relationship between two people with the gender and lifestyle profiles Doyle wrote for them. Yet once I let Elementary play it was its own story and I enjoyed it.

With Doctor Who they just have to nail the character and not make a big deal of the shell. Yesterday Pearl Mackie (Bill Potts) was on Studio 10 (Oz morning show). She said she didn't want her character's sexuality to be a story in the show. That was important to her that it just was accepted. Obviously Doctor Who being female is going to be commented about in the first few scenes (he always comments about the new him/her) but then it should be secondary. Just as it should be if The Doctor becomes male again.

As for the ratings? Oh boy!

Elementary, for my money, is the best screen Holmes story ever. It does something new, which is very hard sometimes, and knocks Sherlock into a cocked hat. As adaptations go, the Brett was probably best. Sherlock is like...Fatboy Slim. At first it’s fun and novel, but pretty quickly you realise you’ve heard it before, and it was better the first time. Elementary has a nice line in whodunnit, like the books, and does new things with the archetypes from Doyle. Sherlock is more about surface...usually anyone who has read the books knows what’s going to happen, after that it’s a ‘howaretheygonnaupdateit’.
 
Elementary, for my money, is the best screen Holmes story ever. It does something new, which is very hard sometimes, and knocks Sherlock into a cocked hat. As adaptations go, the Brett was probably best. Sherlock is like...Fatboy Slim. At first it’s fun and novel, but pretty quickly you realise you’ve heard it before, and it was better the first time. Elementary has a nice line in whodunnit, like the books, and does new things with the archetypes from Doyle. Sherlock is more about surface...usually anyone who has read the books knows what’s going to happen, after that it’s a ‘howaretheygonnaupdateit’.
I'm a Sherlockian of long standing, and Elementary is so far above Sherlock as to be laughable.
Sherlock is modern rehashing of cannon, while Elementary is fresh and exciting. Even my
Mother prefers Miller to Cumberbatch. Miller is more the brooding detective with flaws of his own
versus the "superstar" that is Cumberbatchs Holmes.

My $0.02


:techman:
 
It is different if you grew up with the character. And we have tons of ‘quirky’ female leads, it seems to be the in thing since the eighties at least. Maybe even older than that.
I don’t know about just going for the fighter types as female characters, but in some respects I am atypical there. Ripley was very popular with my teenage friends. There’s that fin line between role model and crush though, I expect that works both ways, looking at the swooning over Tennant, (and elsewhere the Cumberbatch fans...and what was that actor that had something called an Oestrogen Brigade following him? Was it Duchovny? Hmm.)
The sports stars is an interesting point, because for a long time Doctor Who was the sort of thing that was for people who don’t much care for sport. Again, he just...fills a different role over here I think.

A interesting thing though on the differences between American boys and British Boys who grow up on "Doctor Who" but have we reached a point where you can now say Americans are growing up on it as well since the new version has been around since 2005. Granted I still suspect their is a difference in that even if young Americans grow up on it, the show while popular is not the cultural Icon here like it is over their. I guess the reverse effect must be how Americans perceive "Star Trek" which from what I understood in the past took a great long time for new episodes to even be shown after they were first aired. "Star Wars" though must be completely different animals from both Trek and Who. Is "Star Wars" not a icon, anywhere in most of the world?

Jason
 
Not like Trek and Who...
Star Wars
is a saga in the Grand scale of Good vs. Evil...
Trek and Who are the nuts and bolts, in the gutter battle for what's right.

;)
 
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As a male, it is hard for me sometimes, not all the time, but mostly, to identify with a female character. My gender gives me a different perspective,
That is a load of nonsense.
date, it would be interesting to know how many male viewers watch predominantly female led shows over the ones starring males.
Out of the seven shows currently in production I watch, four have female leads, including Doctor Who. Also, six movies I have seen in theatres in the past year have had female leads.
 
A interesting thing though on the differences between American boys and British Boys who grow up on "Doctor Who" but have we reached a point where you can now say Americans are growing up on it as well since the new version has been around since 2005. Granted I still suspect their is a difference in that even if young Americans grow up on it, the show while popular is not the cultural Icon here like it is over their. I guess the reverse effect must be how Americans perceive "Star Trek" which from what I understood in the past took a great long time for new episodes to even be shown after they were first aired. "Star Wars" though must be completely different animals from both Trek and Who. Is "Star Wars" not a icon, anywhere in most of the world?

Jason

No star wars isn't..see China as an example
 
That is a load of nonsense.

Out of the seven shows currently in production I watch, four have female leads, including Doctor Who. Also, six movies I have seen in theatres in the past year have had female leads.

That's hardly an indicator of what I am asking. Your experience doesn't imply all are like that. I'm just curious to know what the overall picture is on the subject. And while I'm at it, what's nonsense about my not being able to identify with most females in a tv role? I'm male, my experiences and perspectives are coloured by that fact. Most people's perspective like it or not are Also as well. There are many exceptions, but it is a truthful statement.

Here's a study from the European Molecular Biology website.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3388783/

I tend to read their work often.
 
And while I'm at it, what's nonsense about my not being able to identify with most females in a tv role? I'm male, my experiences and perspectives are coloured by that fact. Most people's perspective like it or not are Also as well. There are many exceptions, but it is a truthful statement.
If you actually believe that, it certainly explains most of your posts. I have no more trouble relating to female characters than I do male characters. After all, there are certain universal traits inherent to all human beings, regardless their gender.
 
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