Soong type Androids technology

[Marynator]

I don't feel there is any reason to not accept what I'm told on the show. I really would rather not go down the route of thinking "Well everything could be a lie and faked", because to me that feels silly and we'd have to doubt everything, like maybe nothing is real and the universe was all created by Q a few hours before "Encounter at Farpoint"? and things like that. I feel there is enough evidence on the show to suggest that everything happened like they said!

And in "Brothers" we see Lore kill Dr Soong! When he says he's a murderer, then we see him murder, I feel that's good enough for me to believe him!

In "Datalore" I thought he was going to send a signal? But it didn't happen, so the ship and crew were saved.

Well they weren't Borg anymore! They were individuals now, and they were so lost and confused, but they did have Hugh with them who had experience. But Lore came along and he corrupted them and led them to do horrible things, like murdering those people at that station. Lore didn't have to do the killing himself, he just had to be their leader! Like I don't know if Hitler or Stalin actually like killed anyone with their bare hands, but they're still murderers, right?

 

[Timo]

The thing here is, you are deciding to trust the word of "Hitler or Stalin" on the issue. If and when you and me accept Lore is evil, then deciding that his sin is lying is consistent with what he does on screen (i.e. lies, on many unambiguous things), while believing in killing is not.

Lore leaves Soong alive, and the old man then has dialogue with our heroes to the effect that he wants no medical aid and wishes to remain in his lab. We don't even really see him die there and then - he was dying long before his sons arrived, and may have lived for quite a long time after the camera turned away. Minutes? Years? We don't know, and nobody actually suggests he would be dead when the end credits roll.

Pretty poor showing for a murderer with superhuman powers against a frail old man!

As for "Datalore", Lore spoke to the CE, saying that the lowering of shields would be its cue to attack. Lore then found his way to the cargo transporter, where he could have sent all the signals he wanted, or dropped the shields (because that is what it takes to get stuff beamed out intact, be it a tree or a whiz kid or an evil android), but did not. And then Wes dropped the shields for him, and the CE blinked and flew away.

Now granted, only "Brothers" requires us to believe the shields really were dropped, as Lore remains intact. Original writing could theoretically have involved beaming Lore against raised shields and killing him (if those writers went into such techno-detail). But that was negated by "Brothers".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nakita Akita]

Interesting discussion. Why was Lore "evil"? I don't remember how Lore was introduced to TNG. Was Lore always the bad android?

Data and Lore seemed to have completely different values even they both were the product of Soong.

Was it Lore's nature to be criminally minded? Was Lore's sinister personality the result of Soong original programming? Or did Lore learn to be "evil" and then preferred to be that way? Was it nature or nurture that created the bad Lore?

Lore was evil because he had emotions but no morals.

Data had morals and no emotions.
Dr. Soong corrected his error of Lore in Data. But Soong knew that with morals Data would be able to handle emotions better than Lore.

 

[Marynator]

Timo, I am so sorry, I do not think the same way about things. When something is accepted on the show by the characters, I choose to believe it's true, I feel I cannot enjoy a story that way if I just say characters are lying and it didn't really happen and make up the story how I want, unless it's like part of the story that the characters are figuring out (like Count Olaf's hijinks in A Series of Unfortunate Events, lol). I am glad you enjoy the stories this way, but for me it just doesn't make sense, I am sorry.

I do believe Lore killed Dr Soong, and I don't believe he lived for days or years after, but for the story it was enough to let us know he died in Data's arms but we didn't need to really see it, and I don't believe Data would have left him there still breathing but obviously dying. Just because Dr Soong was already dying doesn't mean Lore didn't still murder him, his wounds were fatal.

I don't feel the Crystalline Entity has like starship sensors, and the shields were only down for a moment, but I really do believe Lore was trying to help it kill everyone, because that's what the story said he was doing and there is no real reason for me to believe otherwise, unless I simply chose to do so, which is not something I feel I'd want to do.

 

[Herbert]

I don't feel there is any reason to not accept what I'm told on the show. I really would rather not go down the route of thinking "Well everything could be a lie and faked", because to me that feels silly and we'd have to doubt everything, like maybe nothing is real and the universe was all created by Q a few hours before "Encounter at Farpoint"? and things like that. I feel there is enough evidence on the show to suggest that everything happened like they said!

Timo, I am so sorry, I do not think the same way about things. When something is accepted on the show by the characters, I choose to believe it's true, I feel I cannot enjoy a story that way if I just say characters are lying and it didn't really happen and make up the story how I want, unless it's like part of the story that the characters are figuring out (like Count Olaf's hijinks in A Series of Unfortunate Events, lol). I am glad you enjoy the stories this way, but for me it just doesn't make sense, I am sorry.

I'm with you Mary.
I just can't go down the rabbit hole that so many people on this board willingly go down. There's so much speculative reading between the lines in these threads that I'm starting to wonder if the people posting it are focusing too little on what was said and focusing too much on what was not said, to be point of absurdity.

 

[Lance Warren Baylis]

I've always felt that Data and Lore are essentially identical, Data just had inhibitors on emotions because Soong's previous attempts had all developed sociopathic or narcissistic tendencies, and he needed time to iron out the kinks. Imagine if the creators of Terminator's Skynet realized in time that their artificial intelligence was turning evil, so instead shut it down and replaced it with a nearly identical version with a few programming differences that make it appreciate Sherlock Holmes and kittens. That's Data vs Lore. They aren't different at a fundamental level, Data is *designed* to be less perfect and to not develop as fast, because Soong feared he'd just develop into Lore. Certainly there are occasions on TNG where we see the consequences of an emotional Data and the default is something not entirely alike Lore.

 

[Mojochi]

Hmm. When would Lore have murdered?

From Descent

Using the humans to perfect the procedure would allow us to prevent any further Borg deaths.

He's destroyed Borg, experimenting on them, & is planning to do the same with humans. Saying those aren't murders is the same as saying anyone who died under Josef Mengele's experiments weren't murdered. He's homicidal, malicious, & has a much greater disregard for loss of life than Data

That is just Data and "mastering". Data hasn't "mastered" emotions, sneezing or violin playing, either, but he sure beats all of mankind there.

That's one way to interpret the use of the word mastering. The other is to say I haven't mastered swimming... so in all practicality, I can't swim. He never says he hasn't mastered emotions. He literally says he doesn't have them, but we see him act in ways that do indicate he does. In Data's Day, He says he hasn't mastered sarcasm. When you haven't mastered sarcasm, that means you can't do it lol

But either way, whether he can't use contractions or just lacks sufficient programmed ability to perform the function in all practicality, as in maybe he struggles with it as badly as he does whistling, it's the same outcome. He was endowed with less ability to do so than Lore, & one has to imagine that if Juliana & Lore both have no such struggle, then Soong may have done so deliberately, the same as he did with whistling, dreaming, & emotions. Lore says Soong made Data less perfect. That's likely an overstatement, & while it doesn't have to be true, there can still be truth in it, in the sense that he clearly made Data less developed, so that journey of growth might bestow upon him some humility that Lore was sorely lacking

...I'm not aware of a single such occasion.

Lore in Datalore indicates that Data has less ability to say contractions with ease as he does, in his "Has not & Is Not" speech. Haftel calls Lal doing it an aberration, & no one corrects him. It's pretty clear that they're suggesting he either can't do it, or lacks sufficient ability to do it in all practicality, & while the show has its little continuity errors of having him do it, I choose to explain those away as him not being cognizant of how well he performs the function in those glancing moments, & everybody else is just missing it, on the odd occasion that it happens. Heck, If I hadn't scrutinized the show down to every last word, I'd never have even noticed them myself. It's not beyond belief that the people around him might miss the rare occurrences, & that he, himself, might have a mental block in noticing it himself

Some times he does notice these things. In Data's Day, while his narrative reads out the line

It is fortunate that I am able to perform my duties without emotional distractions. If that were not the case, a sudden course correction toward the Neutral Zone would make me very... nervous.

He then starts unconsciously drumming his fingers on the console, in a distractedly nervous fashion.... & then he notices himself doing it, & appears puzzled by it. That's an emotional distraction, maybe not on as big as a fit of crying, but it still is, & he notices it this time, but there's other times, when he doesn't, like when he expressed relief at Geordi being alive in The Next Phase.

I choose to assume Data doesn't know his own potential, & that was maybe a deliberate intention on the part of his creator. It may not be overwhelmingly supported by the show, but enough is in there to make it plausible, & I haven't come across anything that refutes it

 

[Timo]

From Descent: He's destroyed Borg, experimenting on them, & is planning to do the same with humans.

He's always planning, yes. Virtually nobody can be convicted for planning to commit a forbidden deed unless both an unwavering conviction and a set of practical means can be established. Telling everybody I want to kill the President would be a special case reserved exclusively for Presidents in certain nations. Telling everybody I want to murder Bill Cosby would be unprosecutable unless it somehow could be demonstrated I had the means (starting with being able to afford the necessary flights).

Vivisecting the Borg in turn is the very definition of charity work in TNG. Or are our heroes supposed to be criminals for doing that all the time?

But either way, whether he can't use contractions or just lacks sufficient programmed ability to perform the function in all practicality, as in maybe he struggles with it as badly as he does whistling, it's the same outcome.

Umm, the outcome is that he can use contractions. Because he does. To claim otherwise would be a much worse case of denial than claiming Lore cannot bring himself to kill anybody.

He was endowed with less ability to do so than Lore

Well, less willingness, if such things can be "endowed". But we observe no lesser skill. If anything, it is Lore who cannot convincingly emulate emotions or freeform speech, as he always sounds like a stereotypical villain while Data can sound like whatever he wishes.

Lore in Datalore indicates that Data has less ability to say contractions with ease as he does, in his "Has not & Is Not" speech.

...But where do you get "ability" from that? Does Data also have less "ability" to say either po-TAY-to or po-TAH-to, too? (Which of those and why?)

Haftel calls Lal doing it an aberration, & no one corrects him.

If Crusher and Picard's daughter turned out to be black, this would be an aberration. If LaForge and Brahms' son did, this would not be one. Lal is the daughter of Data.

There is nothing "wrong" with being black or using contractions. But it can be telling, without any need to go to absolutes. Crusher and Picard are still allowed to have a few black ancestors in the mix, and Data can use informal language in the sort of moderation we actually observe in the show.

It's pretty clear that they're suggesting he either can't do it, or lacks sufficient ability to do it in all practicality, & while the show has its little continuity errors of having him do it, I choose to explain those away as him not being cognizant of how well he performs the function in those glancing moments, & everybody else is just missing it, on the odd occasion that it happens.

I just can't bring myself to go through the mental hoops of deciding that a statistically prevalent phenomenon nobody ever comments on is "atypical", much less "unreal". Data always uses contractions - why should this be considered an error?

And make no mistake, Data is under careful scrutiny in-universe. A human character (even the Captain) can be possessed by a space monster or replaced by an impostor and it takes an entire episode for the others to catch on. Data gets evaluated on every funny phrase he uses...

I mean, Data has already been possessed and replaced by an impostor, to near-disastrous end result. Him being "more human" in both cases allowed the heroes to catch on. Not him using contractions, though. If those really were relevant, surely our heroes nowadays would shoot first and ask for Data's grammatical license later!

On a more general note, certain villains make our heroes believe things. There is nothing wrong with agreeing with the herpes on things - unless those were things a villain made them believe in! Why believe a villain when his lips are moving?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Marynator]

I choose to accept Data's sporadic contractions usage is simply a production error. I mean, it's only a television show, it's not mean to be actually real, and it's made by humans who're flawed and make mistakes. They make such a big deal of it on the show how Data can't use contractions so many times. I feel it's far more likely that Brent slipped up in his acting from time to time rather than it's some big conspiracy to fool us? It's like sometimes we've just got to realize some things are totally not intentional?

 

[Herbert]

I choose to accept Data's sporadic contractions usage is simply a production error. I mean, it's only a television show, it's not mean to be actually real, and it's made by humans who're flawed and make mistakes. They make such a big deal of it on the show how Data can't use contractions so many times. I feel it's far more likely that Brent slipped up in his acting from time to time rather than it's some big conspiracy to fool us? It's like sometimes we've just got to realize some things are totally not intentional?

 

[matthunter]

Vivisecting the Borg in turn is the very definition of charity work in TNG. Or are our heroes supposed to be criminals for doing that all the time?

These Borg were self-aware individuals. Even Ahab himself knew that killing them - or using them to attack the Collective - was wrong.

Don't cast yourself in this moral light for the sake of your usual "my headbabble beats yours" schtick, T.

 

[Mojochi]

He's always planning, yes. Virtually nobody can be convicted for planning to commit a forbidden deed unless both an unwavering conviction and a set of practical means can be established.

He isn't in planning stages. He's issuing orders to experiment on Geordi, & Individualized Borg have already died

Vivisecting the Borg in turn is the very definition of charity work in TNG. Or are our heroes supposed to be criminals for doing that all the time?

They wouldn't do it to Hugh, & that's what these Borg Lore has had killed via experimentation are, more Borg like Hugh, & by like Hugh, that is to say self realized individuals, as opposed to hive drones

...But where do you get "ability" from that?

From the fact that he literally follows it up by saying "you also have trouble with their humor". In this context, that "Also" indicates he has trouble too with their contractions, that trouble being a difficulty with, or inability to perform properly

Umm, the outcome is that he can use contractions. Because he does. To claim otherwise would be a much worse case of denial than claiming Lore cannot bring himself to kill anybody.

but he also can't, because he is shown refraining from trying to do so, much, much more often than the odd occurrences of him doing it. Additionally, he also says he can't. So, I take him at his word that he has trouble with it. It's a limitation he has. They made that clear enough, imho, & in order to reconcile, what were clearly unintentional production errors when he did it, I just assume he might be in the dark some about his potential there... just like he is in other areas too. The happy result is that I can look on Data as being on a journey of self discovery, just like any of us.

As for when his shipmates miss him doing it... they miss him expressing emotions now & then too... OR maybe they aren't missing it at all, they are just deliberately not drawing attention to it, because there's no point in it. They're choosing to not make anything out of it, because they're letting the guy grow at his own pace

 

[Timo]

Hey, it's pretty simple. Either Data's uses of contractions are significant, or then they are not.

Our heroes confirm that they are not - when Data does use contractions, there is zero comment on this. So this puts pressure on us to inspect the other side of the coin, Data's stilted speech, so that it would be consistent with the above. And there are no showstoppers there: contrary to the apparent belief of many here, Data is never said to be "unable" to use contractions.

There may be ambiguous dialogue around the issue - one occurrence of "mastering", one bit where Data is being mocked, one fantasy sequence where fictional errors are a key element of the make-believe universe. But the above claim is true, and its opposite is false. The rest is just interpretation. Why interpret so that the show portrays an inconsistent and faulty fictional universe (even outside Will Riker's headspace), when one can just as easily interpret the opposite way to the opposite effect?

I can't come up with any reason to deliberately choose the contradictory approach. Writer intent? But writers of Data are all over the place: Data is not the creation of any single writer, but the sum total of their writings, including their disagreements and downright errors. The writers are invisible, Data is visible - and Data is not in disagreement or error. Dramatic appeal? Data being unable to do X has never worked out dramatically: all his limits are soft, and he can kill, lust or insult just as well as the next humanoid, in dramatically pleasing moderation. Growth potential? Data isn't shown growing out of a contraction block - to the contrary, after all sorts of experiments, he returns to being who he wants to be, which includes the formal turn of phrase.

but he also can't, because he is shown refraining from trying to do so, much, much more often than the odd occurrences of him doing it.

Can't, or is refraining from? Those are mutually exclusive, really. And I simply vote for the latter.

Additionally, he also says he can't. So, I take him at his word that he has trouble with it.

But that is not true in the slightest. He never says he can't, and he never says he has trouble with it - very much to the contrary, he takes pride in not doing it in "Datalore"! It's a choice. And he may have trouble with the choice, but not with the subject matter of the choice itself.

The happy result is that I can look on Data as being on a journey of self discovery, just like any of us.

Seems to me he completed that journey long before "Datalore", and is as much at ease with himself (and with his choice to speak formally, lie fluently, beat up his opponents very politely, and not let his emotions show) during the first season as he is during his last movie appearance.

As for when his shipmates miss him doing it... they miss him expressing emotions now & then too... OR maybe they aren't missing it at all, they are just deliberately not drawing attention to it, because there's no point in it. They're choosing to not make anything out of it, because they're letting the guy grow at his own pace

See, this works fine. There's nothing wrong with Data having the abilities this discussion would want to totally deprive him of. He just doesn't want to use those abilities (either unconsciously, or just as probably consciously), and it indeed is no big deal.

It is a separate matter that Lal using the abilities is a big deal. That's Lal, not Data. Babies and abilities are always a big deal!

Tio Saloniemi

 

[Mojochi]

You're assuming that him not wanting to do it (Or more properly attempt it) & not being able to do it are mutually exclusive. He can be both. That I haven't mastered swimming, & thereby don't know how to swim effectively might precipitate me not wanting to try it. Not wanting to try swimming for that reason doesn't mean I already know how to swim, but I'm proud of my ability to not swim

Can't, or is refraining from? Those are mutually exclusive, really.

Refraining from trying, which is likely because of the difficulty he is clearly attributed. They aren't mutually exclusive

He never says he can't, and he never says he has trouble with it - very much to the contrary, he takes pride in not doing it in "Datalore"! It's a choice. And he may have trouble with the choice, but not with the subject matter of the choice itself.

Pride? I don't see where anyone could possibly glean that. Lore says he has trouble with it. Data's said he hasn't mastered it, in context of another android, built from his design, being able to do so. It's called an aberration that she is doing it. These words have meaning & intent, which are to suggest he has issue with the function

It is a separate matter that Lal using the abilities is a big deal. That's Lal, not Data.

Oh c'mon, dude. What's the name of this thread? She was literally formed from his own matrix.. There's undoubtedly correlation to be had there. How do you NOT compare one of the only known examples of the design?

The hilarity of this debate is that I'm saying he can do it, but struggles with it, & doesn't know his own potential, because it's clearly indicated that he does, & you're saying he can do it, but doesn't struggle with it, & that's it's simply a choice to not do it

So ultimately you're suggesting that he is doing something that is awkward, even though we know he wants to be able to do things like humans in normal ways, like humor & whistling. There's no reason why he's select this one thing to choose to do awkwardly, when it goes against his entire motivation as a character, otherwise

 

[Herbert]

These Borg were self-aware individuals. Even Ahab himself knew that killing them - or using them to attack the Collective - was wrong.

Don't cast yourself in this moral light for the sake of your usual "my headbabble beats yours" schtick, T.

Geez, I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees this nonsense for what it is.

 

[Dukhat]

Geez, I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees this nonsense for what it is.

When someone's sole modus operandi is to completely disagree with everything you say, just for the sake of disagreeing, then it no longer becomes a discussion and instead becomes a dick-measuring contest for the sake of the serial contrarian's jollies. To that I say, no thanks.

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

Timo and Mojochi, please stop. This has reached angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin territory over the scripted dialog of fictional characters. There is no "truth" and there is no winner.

 

[Twilight Phoenix]

Look who's back on her favourite topic

I rewatched Birthright I lately and noticed Dr Bashir asks Data if he'd allow him to write a research paper about Data's new ability to dream.
That had me wondering...Do we have any info about which research papers and even PhD thesis were written about Data in-universe ?

 

[Mojochi]

Do we have any info about which research papers and even PhD thesis were written about Data in-universe ?

The only other mention I've ever heard of Data having been written about is when Dr. Crusher is giving him a physical exam in The Naked Now, & jokes about writing him up in a text for being so perfect, to which Data replies that he already has been written about in "several biomechanical texts"

So, clearly he has been written about, quite a bit

 

[Twilight Phoenix]

The only other mention I've ever heard of Data having been written about is when Dr. Crusher is giving him a physical exam in The Naked Now, & jokes about writing him up in a text for being so perfect, to which Data replies that he already has been written about in "several biomechanical texts"

So, clearly he has been written about, quite a bit

Well I guess I'll have to make up something for my fanfic :-/