Soong type Androids technology

Discussion in 'Star Trek: The Next Generation' started by TauCygna, Apr 9, 2018.

  1. Mojochi

    Mojochi Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Probably... they never wanted to get too specific about their technical stuff. Kills the fantasy to a degree, but I bet Maddox has written all kinds of stuff
     
  2. Kytee

    Kytee Commander Red Shirt

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    Good question, I love how this board gets me thinking about things I would never had otherwise considered. :) while I can't think of any reference other then the naked now one that was already brought up, my assumption would be there are many papers written about him, most likely written by him :)

    Data has plenty of free time, he is scientifically curious, he must be one of the leading authority's on STA ( he has the most access to experiment ) Now I have this image of Data taking off his own arm and experimenting on it with his other , lol
     
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  3. Mojochi

    Mojochi Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I can't imagine him attending cybernetics conferences, & building his own android child, without literally becoming maybe the foremost living authority on the subject, on top of being the best living example. He's probably compiled every bit of study on the subject that exists. I'm sure he does publish his research. I'd imagine the scientific community would almost demand that he do so. They'd be in the dark without it.

    It's another reason why the issues in The Measure of a Man are so ludicrous. If I was betting who'd be more likely to succeed in duplicating Soong's work, Data, or Maddox? Data gets every last penny. Maddox seemed like an idiot in comparison. Data shot him down in less than 5 minutes, & all the guy could stand on scientifically was that he's "Confident" he could figure it out, once he was already in too deep. Yeah, real scientific, dude. Lemme just pop the top & look inside, then I can figure it out

    It's another reason why any scientist arguing against Data about the possibility of an AI being intelligent, like that Exocomp lady, should totally be rethinking their position. Hell, I think they should've let Data keep the Exocomps right on board the ship. (Assuming they wanted to stay) Who better to study & work with them as they develop? Certainly not the lady who couldn't even recognize their nature
     
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  4. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Who has ever argued against Data being intelligent? Everybody's argument seems to be that he's pretty smart for a machine. Which at times is argued to be a damned good reason to tear him to bits or shut him down.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  5. SpyOne

    SpyOne Captain Captain

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    Mojochi wasn't saying that anyone argued that Data wasn't intelligent. He was saying that if someone found themselves arguing with Data about the intelligence (or sentience) of other things, as happened with the exocomps, then that person should doubt their position simply because Data is such an expert on that subject.
     
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  6. TauCygna

    TauCygna Captain Captain

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    Have you ever wondered how Data's skin can regenerate itself ??
    [​IMG]
    Since his skin material is called "bioplast", does it have the ability to replicate some cell-like structures ?
     
  7. Mojochi

    Mojochi Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Correct. Thanks.

    And I realize even that is debateable,
    I don't think it does regenerate. I think he just replicates more & replaces it, the same as he did for Lal's. Granted, there is no canon on it either way. It's just my thought on it. It's possible it does somehow
     
  8. TauCygna

    TauCygna Captain Captain

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    Since the issue has been tackled on the 'TNG returns' topic...

    What are your thoughts about Data's ability to age/appear older ?
    A specific line from Inheritance was quoted, but it sounds to me like the writers didn't put much thought about that dialogue and broke the continuity.
    I'm convinced Data doesn't have the required hardware to age, even though he could deliberately grow grey hair or change his bioplast face - but those would be purely aesthetic changes, not 'physiological' ones in any way.
     
  9. TauCygna

    TauCygna Captain Captain

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    Sorry for double posting, I am attempting to get that thread back on the scene, since I have some ideas I'd love to discuss ;)

    I've been thinking about a deleted scene from The Measure of a Man bluRAY extended version. For those of you who never watched that version, there's a deleted scene when Troi and Riker discuss their views about wether or not they're anthropomorphizing Data, while he's opening his gifts at the Ten Forward.

    Not exactly technology related, but that had me think : where exactly is the line of anthropomorphism, since Noonien Soong conceived STA to be as life like as possible ?
    It appears to me that everything Noonien did was deliberately meant to make human beings anthropomorphize his sons. When I began watching TNG, I thought Noonien's goal was to create androids. But the more involved I get into the STA fandom and knowledge, the more evident it is that he didn't want to create androids - he wanted to create humans. Artificial, hand engineered humans - that I personally like calling 'transhumans'.
    If it wasn't the case, then what would be the point in giving them growing skin appendages ? Tears ? Orally articulated language instead of speakers ? The ability to eat (even if it probably doesn't provide them fuel) ? Emotions and feelings (both conscious and unconscious) ? Dreams ? Intimate functionality ?

    And if Noonien's goal was to create transhumans indeed, then where's the line between what we would call an 'anthropomorphized artificial life form' and a 'human being' ? Is there a line, anyway ?
     
  10. Mojochi

    Mojochi Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Ultimately the line of when it's anthropomorphizing is when it isn't like a person. It's not so much about being manlike as it is personhood. Data is experiencing personhood, & it has nothing to do with how much he resembles a human, but with how legitimate his AI is. (Very) That's why Maddox's "Box on Wheels" comment is so wrong. It wouldn't matter, if an Exocomp had been the 1st legitimate AI. It's still a person, in the sense that it is a conscious being, experiencing life

    And this is why Soong spent as much time & effort perfecting every other attribute of Data's construction, which is designed to simulate human existence. It wasn't so he'd BE more of a human, but so that he'd be SEEN as more of a human, because he probably knew it would be more difficult an experience for a being that was wholly dissimilar, like an Exocomp, to experience existence among humanoids without being one. Plus, it was probably because of the human hubris, to want to create humanity. It also has to do with expectation. Why would a human make a sapient being that wasn't like themselves? What reference base would they have to undertake that? They see the world as a human. It's only logical that their creation should see it that way
    Data doesn't have physiology as such. He has mechanisms. Above all, he looks different in year 7 than he did in year 1. Call it what you will, but comments were made, & Julianna was clearly designed to grow old. She was even given some kind of emitter that simulated life signs. If he can do that, there's no reason to doubt he'd be able to design a surfacing that altered over time. It's just another evolution of his technology to simulate the human physical dynamic, which he seems to have done impeccably, heartbeat, lung movement, tear ducts, skin pores, etc... Data's physical design is maybe an even more colossal achievement than his consciousness, not as miraculous maybe, but certainly a grander accomplishment. He didn't just discover a legitimate AI. He achieved near perfection in simulating the humanoid organism
     
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  11. TauCygna

    TauCygna Captain Captain

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    Rewatched Datalore today and stumbled upon that detail...
    Lore drugged Data by making him swallow something dissolved in Champagne...but HOW can Data be drugged ? ?
    Does he have a stomach-like device that can transfer what he swallows to his hydraulic systems ? I'm more and more drawn to the hypothesis that STA may have some sort of chemical reactions going on in their circulatory system, like androids from Detroit and their thirium artificial blood.

    As you said @Mojochi Noonien's job at replicating a human body, and his genius in building complex biomimetic systems is just as remarkable as what he achieved with the positronic brain (*_*)
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2018
  12. Mojochi

    Mojochi Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'm not sure where I've heard it said, but I clearly remember Data being referred to as being biomechanical in nature, or at least he referenced his biofunctions, which made me think of him as such. I take it to mean that he is in some way a form of biomechanoid.

    That the polywater intoxication from The Naked Now can affect him, that Lore can affect or "drug" him with some kind of agent, that the Borg Queen can somehow introduce functional living organic skin to him, all seem to lead to that conclusion. There is certainly reason to suspect some chemical processes at play in his design, or even a sense of biology to his nature. The idea that Soong could have managed that is no less believable than him being able to generate consciousness from scratch.
     
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  13. TauCygna

    TauCygna Captain Captain

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    From Birthright I :
    From Déjà Q :
     
  14. Coyote Annabis

    Coyote Annabis Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    This thread reminds me of something I've been thinking about for a while. The possibility that Data actually survived the events of Nemesis. He pulled a shell game switcheroo using B4 and Lore.

    Let me explain.

    After our last encounter with a fully operational Lore, it's never fully explained what happened to him beyond the fact that he was shut down and disassembled. Key word, dissassembled. IIRC no one ever specifically states that he was destroyed, as in rendered completely incapable of ever being rebuilt. It would make sense that Data would keep Lore's body handy for research and spare parts in case of emergencies. Hell he could have left standing instructions of Geordi and Beverly to re use Lore's body with his brain in the event that he were somehow mortally damaged, like a living will.

    Or, possibly, a ringer in the event he had the want or need to fake his own death. He could easily reassemble Lore and intentionally inflict fatal damage to his positronic brain and leave the "corpse" behind as evidence.

    Now flash forward to the discovery of B4. We potentially have 3 Data-like STA's on board one ship. HeresH how it could have happened.

    Data selectively wipes out Lore's programming (if it hasn't been done already) so that he can fun tio , but only within certain, very limited parameters, basically turning Lore into a drone. Or he could have employed the same methods that Lore used to control him during Descent. Either way he takes control of Lore.

    Prior to the final act, Data replaces himself with the pacified Lore and carries out his suicide mission to save Picard. He could have modified his appearance to resemble some random crewman and faded into the background in all the confusion.

    B4, being an inferior prototype to Data and Lore wouldn't be fit to serve aboard a starship, at least not right away. Lo and behold, there just happens to be a cyberneticist with excellent credentials and an uncanny resemblance to doctor Soong on board the very next ship that the Enterprise runs into on it's way back for repairs, who is more than willing to help oversee B4's development in a humane, non-invasive, almost nurturing fashion...

    If you really think about it, it is a logical course of action. Data likely learned all that there was to know about Lore by this point, and the presensce of another compatible STA would eliminate the need to keep Lore, who is a potential liability. By letting everyone think he was dead, he'd be free to continue working with B4 at his own discretion, in sort of a "big brother" type of role.
     
  15. Stroudarian

    Stroudarian Lieutenant Commander Premium Member

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    Interesting point to consider!
     
  16. JoeZhang

    JoeZhang Vice Admiral Admiral

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    His skin has to be at least similar in temperature to a human or given he’s capable of ‘multiple pleasurings’ it would be like using a dildo and thus would be sub-optimum. Similarly you’d want his tongue to approximate human temps for the same reason.
     
  17. TauCygna

    TauCygna Captain Captain

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    Keeping his brother's body as a spare parts resources for himself ?? And deliberately damaging his brother's brain for his own plans ???
    That doesn't sound like Data's behaviours at all ! I can't imagine him doing such things !! Those are things Lore would do.

    No matter what your reasoning is, do you realize how insulting this is to compare making love with someone to using a dildo ?? Even if he had cold skin ?? Maybe the difference in temperature would be awkward or unpleasant, but...a dildo ?! Seriously ?!!
     
  18. JoeZhang

    JoeZhang Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well think about it - without attention to detail on matters such as girth, temperature and so on - the experience would be like taking it from a strap-on. Let me tell you - you always want to warm those things to room temperature at least.

    Having said that - we dont see Data engage in sexual Congress so he could just mean he's good with his fingers and tongue and also at taking it (for example if his partner is into BDSM).


    You also likely need some random element in his programming to make him simulate climax otherwise he's just keep going at it like a road drill and that wouldn't be pleasant.
     
  19. TauCygna

    TauCygna Captain Captain

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    WOW. Okay. Dunno where to begin.
    First, mansplaining dildo use to a female ? LOL ??? Not gonna say anything more, except I don't need your advice about what sex life is like, thank you.

    Second...If a LIVING, SENTIENT man had a cold body temperature, then making love to him would just feel like using a sex toy ?? Excuse me ?!! I guess you're feeling entitled to say that because Data's an android, aren't you ?! You wouldn't question wether or not making love to Worf or Riker or Picard would feel like shoving a strap on dildo in your ass ??? That's such an insulting and disgusting view on Data that I don't have strong enough words. Those awful views are the exact reason I wish sentient AI will never exist. So much disrespect. I feel disgusted.
     
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  20. Mojochi

    Mojochi Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    How do you know he's not just as experienced with them as a woman? :guffaw:
     
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