Soong type Androids technology

Oh dear, I'm very afraid I mostly disagree with you @Mojochi, I don't feel at all it's fair to blame Jenna for how things turned out, I don't feel she misunderstands Data at all. She dated him to learn if a relationship between himself and herself would work, and I fear a worse case of judging would be to think you really know a person before you give him a chance, you know what I mean? I feel that's totally the whole point of dating, to see if someone will work for you, and it's good trying different types of men and not just assume you know everything about someone before hand.

I feel I agree with you to a point, how Data will always be devoted, however I fear he'll never be passionate. Both are different types of relationships you can have with your lover, and for some people devotion might be enough, but I feel Jenna learned she really needs passion, which Data just can never truly provide like she needs it. Rather than learning something wrong about Data, I fear she learned something about herself from her relationship with him, she thought he might be enough for her but through her experience she learned she needs more.

I feel there are so many attractive qualities about Mr Data, but I completely agree with Jenna's feelings. She would matter to him, but not "truly" like she says, how she feels she needs him to. She would never be everything to him, she's not even first on his mind, and you can even see how when she ends her romantic involvement with him how easy it is for him to let go, which really in my mind reinforces her feelings.

I feel it's a very interesting episode, like Jenna is really a placeholder for women such as myself, who might find Mr Data so incredibly attractive and imagining ourselves being with him, and he in this episode certainly lives up to all my expectations. He's so kind and compassionate, and warm towards her, you know he'd never have built up expectations of you in his mind that he'd expect you to be. He's never going to feel possessive of you, he's never going to expect you to submit to his desires, he will always make time for you and be considerate of your feelings and needs. Isn't he perhaps just the absolute perfect man, in theory? Maybe, which I think is where this episode's starting from, and oh it's so easy to imagine yourself in Jenna's place and to envy her, and even get frustrated how you feel she blows her chance. I feel it's a really wonderful study into romantic needs and wants, because when you have absolute safety from your romantic partner, will that be enough for you, or are you going to want more, which unfortunately he can't provide?

I myself feel it's just brilliant they chose Jenna as just a guest character, because it's easier to pretend you're her, and after she learns about herself you never need to see her again, which really helps with that too, you know?

I do feel Data made a mistake deleting his subroutines, for several reasons. Even if they're just for her, he'd still have something to build on for his next relationship, and I do believe you absolutely do need your past experiences for next time. Also I believe he did that just to show how right Jenna was, how she really didn't mean enough to him for him to want to permanently dedicate part of himself to for her, right?

I've found myself in love with Data before, especially after I came out of my last abusive relationship, he was really comforting as such a perfect man, he was the exact opposite of my ex boyfriend so you can imagine how comforting it was to imagine being with him. He'll always have a very warm place in my heart, but I'm finding it so much harder to have those same feelings now that I'm in a very healthy relationship, and I'm realizing that like Jenna I need passion more than just devotion, as attractive as I might think that'd be. I feel I need those little things, like knowing just what it does to him when I send him an amorous text message when he's at work, and such and such, and without those little things I just can't imagine being wholly fulfilled in a romantic relationship. I don't blame Jenna at all for feeling she could fall in love with him, and I don't feel it's her fault for not knowing him enough before hand to coldly decide he won't work for her, and I also don't blame her as her fault for realizing her relationship with him won't work, I feel she did everything right by recognizing what a wonderful man he is and for being willing to try things with him, and also for understanding herself well enough to not play games with him when she realized he ultimately isn't right for her.

Oh please don't get me wrong, I still absolutely love our dear Mr Data, but I'm more and more feeling my love for him is like as a little girl. My earliest memories were from when I was a child, when I first saw "Pen Pals" I was about the same age as the actress who played Sarjenka, and I was the same age as the actress who played Gia when "Thine Own Self" first aired, and I really identified with those characters, especially Gia (she's a lot like how I was when I was a little girl). And especially having an abusive father, imagining Data as such an ultimate caregiver and father replacement is just such an amazing dream, and I feel in a father-daughter relationship is where his devotion nature is just absolutely perfect, you know what I mean?

 

Passion is a tricky one for an Android because it needs an element of randomness (and also a sex drive that it's not clear that Data has in the same way others do). It's chaos to Data's neatness.

So if Data was capable of passion, even if he was still in a relationship with Jenna, you'd need him to have the ability to have passionate feelings for someone else - even if he didn't like that other person (which is often a confusing but very human experience).

 

I don't blame her for how things turned out, but she is kind of making it seem like Data is the cause. She claims she doesn't matter to Data, when we know people close to Data do matter to him. She just doesn't understand what matters to him & how, nor how to relate to it. Part of a relationship is that she too must try to understand him, not just expect him to always be the one to understand her

This whole thing went very lopsided. When in this episode does she ever try to understand the actual person she is dating? Once? after the kiss, & then dumps him the next time we see them. I don't want to spell out all the details, unless I have to lol, but in a lot of cases, she's deluding herself about him, in their scenes, & just sort of pretending it's an ordinary relationship. Why would anyone who knows Data think that dating him would be their normal dating experience? She's not approaching this in the right state that would make this a fair attempt imho.

I agree. I don't blame her for ending it. It was a reasonable thing to do, & romance is a random proposition, that you just accept might not work, due to unknowable factors. Everybody's allowed some romantic missteps. I only fault her for being wrong about Data in what she says about him, at the end, which is what she's basing her choice on.

She's presuming Data doesn't care. "Not really" When what she should be saying is "You don't appear to care in the way I like or need". The latter is a fair claim, the former is not. The result is that by her making the unfair claim, Data actually goes away from this under the impression he has failed.

It's a little cruel to make him believe she hasn't mattered to him at all, or that he doesn't truly care, when the truth is he hasn't shown the needed or specific type of care for this individual, & we know from his other relations, that he is capable of caring, & having people matter to him, & just couldn't deliver for her, & she just couldn't make that leap of understanding him, such that the 2 work

Where they're at, is an impasse, which might even be a bit premature for her to believe, imho, but she leaves it as though Data doesn't measure up, & that's unfair to him

He hasn't deleted experiences. He's deleted specific subroutines that dictate how to interact with her. They no longer apply with her . When a marriage ends, I change the bank accounts, I stop wearing my ring. I don't just walk in the house unannounced anymore. I have routines which must be altered

but he did literally dedicate a permanent part of himself to her. She has ended it, & he has reacted accordingly. Just because you or I couldn't compartmentalize it so effectively, doesn't mean he's less invested

Firstly, You shouldn't worry that your remarks are bothering or offending me. I don't mind at all, & enjoy these in depth conversations

That said, I'll just point out that as a guy with autism, I actually identify with Data in this episode more than most people might, as there is a greater possibility for me to have similar reactions to my own behavior, as he did here. If I go into a relationship without informing someone about myself, they might very easily presume I don't care about them, because I have limitations or behaviors that present that way

However, if I detail to that person what autism is, & how it presents, & they go into this knowing enough to understand ME, then I'm not the whole reason behind why it did not work, if it doesn't. How is Data any different here? She knows he's not human. She must know he hasn't got the emotions she's got. They are professional colleagues, not somebody she just met. It's equally incumbent upon her to do as much legwork in trying to understand someone so much different than herself, as he does in trying to understand & come through for her.

Honestly? She doesn't do any of that, & to someone like me, who has more in common with Data than most, it's pretty glaringly obvious, imho.

 

And a ton of typos in that post, too. Perhaps I need to try that thing they call... the night mode? Shut-eye?

It's all the more amazing that Spiner paints all those subtle strokes on top of his miming an arthritic Pinocchio... The combination of machinelike clumsiness and intriguing innuendo is the real saving grace of TNG acting. No wonder they decided to make Spiner and Stewart's characters the backbone of the movies.

As for D'Sora's unhappy relationship here, it seems to me that the two part in terms that we shouldn't even call "friendly", for the LJBF implications: they part happy. For that Charlie Chaplin tear-eyed take on happiess at any rate. If we need to, we can well project either of the two deciding to revisit the relationship at a later date. It was an experiment to both, after all, and both would understand the statistical need for more!

Timo Saloniemi

 

I really appreciate how you identify with Mr Data, and I totally understand how that impacts your perceptions of this story. And I feel it's so wonderful how different people relate to different characters in these stories, like here I see more of myself in Jenna and I sympathize with her more.

I don't feel she's wrong about Data, and I feel you might be confusing some of her words and what she's saying. She knows she matters to Data, but she says "not really", like she doesn't matter in how she needs to be, you know what I mean? I feel the big difference here is feeling love and being in love.

I do believe Data feels love perfectly, and he loves many of his friends including Jenna, but that's totally not the same as him being in love with her, right? And she knew what she was getting into with him, because she talks about how she thought love would be enough for her, but she learned it isn't. I don't believe Data is really capable of being in love at this point in his life, and I completely understand Jenna's feelings how things aren't going to work out. And I totally also understand how at first she thought just him loving her was going to be sufficient, she really learned more about herself than anything else, and I don't believe she's wrong about him.

I felt how Data just deleted his subroutine right in front of her like that just felt so terribly cold to me, you know what I mean? I always feel pain at that moment, I feel he's like "Oh, you and I aren't a couple any more? Okay then, I've just deleted my program for you. Bye!" He felt no pain at breaking up with her, which I feel really validates her whole point.

I do believe Data can care about her, and he could very much value her, and she can be important to him, and I believe he does and all these things are true, and Jenna knows that and she's aware that's what she's getting. I really don't feel he can really be passionately in love with her, and her whole story in this episode is how she comes to realize she was wrong about herself that what he can give her just won't be enough.

I don't feel Jenna's wrong about Data at all, and I don't feel this was about her learning his limitations, but rather about her learning what she needs from her relationships with men and how Data just isn't right for her.

 

One doesn't necessarily exclude the other. She can be both right about herself & her choice to do right by herself, & still be wrong about Data too, in that... from what we know of him, & his other relationships, he's really not being fairly represented here imho.

But that's not what she's saying. She says she doesn't matter to him, emphasizing it by saying "Not really". The word really means real, as in reality. However, just like other people who are close to Data, she does matter to him, in very real ways... really, lol

I'm getting the impression from you that you think she means "really", as it would apply to being about her perspective. She feels she doesn't matter to him, in a way that is real to her, or better put by saying palpable to her, & I do see your point, but quite frankly? That really IS confusing language she's using

I probably wouldn't harp on her so much (Or at all), if she'd simply said "I've come to realize I need someone who feels the same way I do", which is what I think you're driving at, & is a totally valid point. I wouldn't begrudge her breaking it off, because she needs someone who feels about her the way she'd feel about them, which is highly improbable for him. It's emotional reciprocity, so to speak, that she probably needs, the "Being in love" thing you're talking about.

That's a reasonable thing to want in a relationship, but its absence isn't necessarily a deal breaker for everyone who has intimate relations (Especially in the Star Trek universe) It just is for her. She needs him to feel about her the way she feels about him. They literally must feel the same way, or more literally, be capable of feeling IN the same way, & Data does not feel in the same way as her, nor any human

She says none of this though lol. She just tells him what they always tell him, that not having human emotions means she doesn't matter to him, & THAT is simply wrong, & we have extensive proof, in how he values people like Geordi

Basically, this is a poor representation of Data's potential in a relationship, imho, & a lot of that comes down to how quickly she gives up on him, how little she tried to understand him, & specifically how she breaks it to him. I don't fault her for ending it, if that's what's going to work for her, but I fault her for how poorly she did it. She gave up on him kind of quick imho, & more importantly, she made it seem like the cause for why it wouldn't work was that he doesn't feel the way he should, but I maintain that in any relationship, how he feels, is equally as important as how she does, & to say she doesn't matter to him, implies he doesn't care, & that's not true