Soong type Androids technology

[Marynator]

Oh thank you, I definitely got your meaning, it's just one of those words we're not really supposed to use anymore, because people have used it so many times as an insult to say someone is less than human, when really they are still fully dignified human beings in spite of their disability! Those of us with close family or friends with disabilities are probably so much more sensitive, but it's how we spread awareness! The R-word definitely quickly conveys meaning that you're talking about someone with mental disability, but at the same time you're also saying he is less of a person unfortunately.

I don't believe the Romulan wanted to die but just did not want to accept the Klingon donation. I'll have to rewatch that whole episode! Maybe Worf was still going to refuse, I am doubting myself now. But even if I don't like Worf's decision I still have to respect his right to make that choice and not to judge him for it, and I feel Captain Picard did such an amazing job keeping his perspective. And the Romulan did die in the end.

 

[Timo]

Again sorry for the anguish. I tend to the polemic whenever I can, for effect and for brevity (heaven knows I could use the latter!).

The "The Enemy" issue amusingly transcends morals with regard to both Worf and the unnamed Romulan. Their lives are not at the actual focus here, but mere pawns in a political game - and both are required by their oath to donate said lives to state use when the order is given!

The Romulan is under orders to die, apparently. Why is Worf not under orders to deny the enemy his victory, when Picard factually has the right to tell him to go and die (and the right to punish him if he does not, although supposedly not with death any longer)? It seems pennywise for the morituri to squabble about blood samples...

Ethics enter the discussion with Lal the civilian (and with Lore and B4 the civilians), but for most of our heroes, their military oath ought to preempt those.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Marynator]

Oh thank you kindly, I felt was no anguish! I don't blame you at all in the slightest, I was just trying to share awareness, I do feel many people may not be aware unless you have experienced it in your life.

This is one of those times that shows just how much of a wonderful character Jean-Luc Picard is. Maybe he could order Mr Worf to do it? I don't know! But I do know Captain Picard knows it's most certainly the wrong thing to do, it would violate Mr Worf's inalienable right to bodily autonomy. No oath or law has any moral right to take that way from him!

It's just like how Captain Picard will protect Lal's inalienable rights! Oooh I love his speech to Admiral Haftel. I need to watch this one again!

 

[Timo]

No, he actually says his programming has never mastered contractions in Lal's specific episode

That is just Data and "mastering". Data hasn't "mastered" emotions, sneezing or violin playing, either, bùt he sure beats all of mankind there.

I think he's mentioned it other times too, IIRC, that he can't use contractions, or form them, or what have you

...I'm not aware of a single such occasion.

It was a major plot point in Datalore too wasn't it

Basically the opposite. Lore mocks Data for his formal turn of phrase, and Wesley thinks it relevant that Lore when impersonating Data speaks formally instead of using a contraction, but in the end, Data readily uses a contraction to conclude the adventure (probably making Wes go all "Oh shit, I bet my life on a misunderstanding!") - after having used two of those earlier on in the adventure.

It really is a fan myth, one that the writers of "The Offspring" took a bit too seriously but still failed to cement it as a canon part of who Data is. Data can do all, but seldom does - he balances between being a man and a machine, and seems afraid to be either. Being bland is what he is, or wants to be, or wants to look like being. And speaking formally is a part of that. And sometimes the other heroes smirk when he goes beyond bland...

...But never when he uses a contraction.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mojochi]

I am so sorry, it was not you, it was someone else using the word "retard" to put down Data's brother.

ahhh... Now it makes sense lol. My mistake.

Worf was willing to donate to the Romulan in "The Enemy"! But that Romulan commander would not accept and chose to die. Worf struggled with it and Captain Picard would never have forced him (bodily autonomy, people!), but I really feel that Worf was going to be willing to do it when he came to sickbay and confronted his enemy, at least that was my interpretation of it. I do not feel bad at all that they showed Worf's struggle, it was so important for his character's story.

I'm a little off topic here, but it's maybe my favorite story of his on TNG. However, I disagree. He may have been there, trying to be open minded enough to consider it, OR it could be as simple as if you're going to let someone die, instead of help them, you at least owe them enough to look them in the eyes once before they die. I tend to think of Worf doing the latter, especially since later on, Picard, who he respects more than anyone, literally begged him to do it, & he didn't respond by claiming the Romulan refused. He said HE wouldn't do it, for his own reasons, as long as he had any say in it (not ordered)

I most certainly can't speak for Worf, but I do feel that it could have meant something to him just to see a Klingon, and I am sure if Lal chose that identity she would have wanted to explore her chosen culture. I feel that Data would have been woke enough to consult with Worf and other representatives of potential choices for Lal before even making them available.

I doubt he checked beforehand with anyone about the appearance choices. Nobody even knew what he was doing until hours earlier, & there were thousands of choices.

It does raise a very interesting subject of android personal identity. Data doesn't identify as a human, & I doubt Lal would forsake her own heritage as an android, to identify herself as a Klingon, even though possessing the appearance of one, & maybe wanting to invest in living as one culturally. Lal would still be an android, not much different than Data.

I just don't see Worf getting past that, to where he'd think of Lal as a Klingon, enough that it wouldn't bother, or insult him. He's the guy who lost respect for Kahless once he found out he was a clone. Being a true Klingon in all ways, is the backbone of their way of life. Any deviation from that would draw contempt. Even living amongst humans, as Worf's done, was enough to draw scrutiny & ridicule from other Klingons. It's why he's so hard on Alexander. He knows that Quarter-human blood will be an awful burden to live with.

Nope. Choosing Klingon, maybe more than any other race in Star Trek would've been an awful decision, IMHO.

 

[Twilight Phoenix]

How could it be design? Data has a mouth-analogue capable of producing all kinds of sounds, not limited to is own speaking voice. It is not physically impossible for him to... well, do anything, really.

I think this is where the line is drawn between what he can physically do and what he can 'virtually' do. Because he's physically able to use contractions doesn't mean he can 'virtually' do it, if it makes any sense.
I think Data's programmed routines, capacities and limitations are a lot like our brains' internal processes. For example, someone with dyslexia is perfectly aware that MO and TO are different syllabs, but may have difficulties processing them correctly when reading or hearing them. They're physically able to hear the sounds and to articulate them, the "block" comes from the brain wiring (programming).

 

[Herbert]

Data's contraction use/non use is a continuity error, nothing more. Let's not make a mountain out of a mole hill here.

 

[Twilight Phoenix]

Let's not make a mountain out of a mole hill here.

Excuse me, but the goal of this topic is to share our theories about STA technology, partly based on what happens in-universe. So obviously we're going to "make mountains out of mole hills" ! The mole hill is that STA don't exist, period ; so there should be no point in creating the topic with such a perspective.

 

[Herbert]

Oh! My apologies.
Well in that case Data's tech was secretly constructed by Daleks with help from the Cylons in a clandestine attempt to sow the ultimate destruction of the Federation through the catastrophic confusion created by Data's inconsistent contraction use.

 

[Twilight Phoenix]

Oh! My apologies.
Well in that case Data's tech was secretly constructed by Daleks with help from the Cylons in a clandestine attempt to sow the ultimate destruction of the Federation through the catastrophic confusion created by Data's inconsistent contraction use.

Well, I firgit to mention the theory has to make at least a lil sense
I like your sense of humour

 

[Herbert]

Well, I firgit to mention the theory has to make at least a lil sense
I like your sense of humour

You're a good sport.

Spoiler

And believe me, my theory isn't really any less plausible than some of the ....ahem ....."imaginative" stuff I've seen created (whole cloth out of almost nothing but opinion) on this board.

 

[Mojochi]

Data's contraction use/non use is a continuity error, nothing more. Let's not make a mountain out of a mole hill here.

Data is my favorite mole hill

Besides, that Soong did things like hide or suppress Data's dream program does quite a bit to suggest all of Data's pecadillos can be hand waved with that excuse. Soong wanted it that way. Data doesn't know he can use contractions, express emotions or dream. Soong wanted his experience to be a journey of self discovery, something Lore never got

Speaking of Lore, here's a new thought. I'm thinking that if he had kept on controlling Data, after Descent, it's very likely that 2 Soong androids working together could take over the entire Borg collective, & use it to wipe out the Federation completely. I'm thinking that's why Data knew he had to shut him down. He knew he was bad, but hadn't ever realized just how devastating he could potentially be. They could take over the galaxy

 

[Herbert]

Data is my favorite mole hill

Besides, that Soong did things like hide or suppress Data's dream program does quite a bit to suggest all of Data's pecadillos can be hand waved with that excuse. Soong wanted it that way. Data doesn't know he can use contractions, express emotions or dream. Soong wanted his experience to be a journey of self discovery, something Lore never got

That's an ....interesting interpretation backed up by what? Just your speculation? I mean yes Soong wanted Data to discover things. However, just because he wanted Data to discover some things, that doesn't mean he programmed him to discover all things. Otherwise, he wouldn't have created the emotion chip that Lore stole. He would have just allowed Data's programming to eventually discover emotions. However, I'm guessing you already have an explanation for why Soong created that chip.

 

[Roundabout]

Speaking of Lore, here's a new thought. I'm thinking that if he had kept on controlling Data, after Descent, it's very likely that 2 Soong androids working together could take over the entire Borg collective, & use it to wipe out the Federation completely. I'm thinking that's why Data knew he had to shut him down. He knew he was bad, but hadn't ever realized just how devastating he could potentially be. They could take over the galaxy

Interesting discussion. Why was Lore "evil"? I don't remember how Lore was introduced to TNG. Was Lore always the bad android?

Data and Lore seemed to have completely different values even they both were the product of Soong.

Was it Lore's nature to be criminally minded? Was Lore's sinister personality the result of Soong original programming? Or did Lore learn to be "evil" and then preferred to be that way? Was it nature or nurture that created the bad Lore?

 

[Marynator]

Lore brought the Crystalline Entity to Omicron Theta to kill everyone. He was always evil!

 

[Mojochi]

Lore brought the Crystalline Entity to Omicron Theta to kill everyone. He was always evil!

Certainly. All I'm saying is that even as evil or malicious as everyone knew he was, I don't think anyone realized he was brilliant & ruthless enough to perhaps take over the entire galaxy. Data is really the only thing that might stand in his way, which is why he needed to neutralize him in Descent

That's an ....interesting interpretation backed up by what? Just your speculation? I mean yes Soong wanted Data to discover things. However, just because he wanted Data to discover some things, that doesn't mean he programmed him to discover all things. Otherwise, he wouldn't have created the emotion chip that Lore stole. He would have just allowed Data's programming to eventually discover emotions. However, I'm guessing you already have an explanation for why Soong created that chip.

It's not backed up by anything concrete. It's just an interpretation that tries to make sense of what we see on screen, so we might not have to just toss it up as continuity errors. As for the emotion chip... that's a tough one, because I always thought Data would mature into it naturally, but since it shows up, I'd venture a guess to say that the reason he restricted Data's emotions was because he hadn't perfected their application. (Clearly got it wrong with Lore) So maybe he had a major breakthrough, and hardwired it into a piece of tech, so there'd be no question that Data could some day benefit from fully functional emotions, instead of whatever natural progression he was already exhibiting. Notice one of the things Soong says to him in the dream program from Birthright 1

I'm proud of you, son. I wasn't sure you'd ever develop the cognitive abilities to make it this far... But if you're here... if you can see me... it means you've crossed the threshold from being a collection of circuits and subprocessors... and have started a wonderful journey.

That line really does tell me he expected Data might not even achieve the breakthrough to dream. So clearly, he gave him the potential, but it was up to him to fulfill it, & maybe the same was true of emotions, but near the end of his life, he had a breakthrough that made him change his mind & build him something concrete for the task

Interesting discussion. Why was Lore "evil"? I don't remember how Lore was introduced to TNG. Was Lore always the bad android?

Data and Lore seemed to have completely different values even they both were the product of Soong.

Was it Lore's nature to be criminally minded? Was Lore's sinister personality the result of Soong original programming? Or did Lore learn to be "evil" and then preferred to be that way? Was it nature or nurture that created the bad Lore?

My theory (& that's all it is) is that Lore's problem was that he wasn't necessarily evil. It's that just like his vision, hearing, physical prowess, etc... were all superhuman, so too were his emotions. If he was paranoid, he was way more paranoid than a normal person was. If he was angry or excited. His anger or excitement were more powerful than is healthy

This can be seen in his scene with Soong in Brothers. He's all over the place. Angry one minute, heartbroken denial that the man is dying in the next moment. Heartfelt regret about his ruptured relationship with his brother, & ultimately rage & jealously won over when he killed Soong. I think it's akin to what the Vulcan's had in their history, when they let what were superhuman emotions go unchecked. It made them highly dangerous. That's what was going on with Lore. If you have mood swings that are too varied, that is a psychosis. Lore wasn't evil. He was a psychopath, because Soong made his emotional condition as powerful as everything else he made about the guy. So he scaled it way back on Data, until he could get the balance right, because even though living with no emotions or vastly reduced ones is a hindrance, it's better than being a megalomaniac

 

[Twilight Phoenix]

I talked about that matter with another Data fan @LJS1138 who has the most interesting theories aboit STA. The problem with Lore may come from a glitch in his Ethics subroutine, like for example an infinite loop.
When you see what happened to Data in Descent when his Ethics subroutine was turned off by Lore, that makes the Ethics glitch more than plausible. For such a gentle guy to be turned into a torturer by a glitch definitely proves how important the Ethics subroutine is in STA's cognitive functioning.

 

[Timo]

Lore brought the Crystalline Entity to Omicron Theta to kill everyone.

Well, he claimed he did that. But the events of "Datalore" seem to show that he had no control whatsoever over what the CE did or didn't do.

Lore spoke to the CE from Data's quarters, explicating his clever plan to it. There's no sign the CE was listening, though - after all, it never followed that plan!

There would be nothing about the CE eating the colonists that Lore could actually affect, really. There was no indication he turned off any sort of a shielding device, say. It's all just a rain dance: whether it would have rained on that colony that particular day without Lore's input can never be established.

One wonders if Lore ever did anything proactive vis-á-vis Hugh's Borg secession, either. The mad android just likes to sit in the middle of a storm and imagine he's the Zeus or Taranus behind it all...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Marynator]

Well I don't know if Lore had to be trying to take over the whole galaxy to be dangerous. He was very clearly a murderer and had absolutely no regard for life, so that feels like he's pretty dangerous. I always felt Data wanted to try to fix his brother so he could be rehabilitated one day?

I don't feel there is any reason to doubt the story with the Crystalline Entity. Lore didn't have to control it or even hurt the colony himself, but he did lure it there to kill everyone! He was very clearly in communication with it and he was going to lower the shields so it could attack the Enterprise!

With the Borg I feel they clearly said he gave them a purpose and a vision, and that included murder and experimenting on people. That seems pretty awful. Without Lore maybe more of the Borg would've followed Hugh?

I feel what was wrong with Lore was his emotions were unbalanced and he was like totally full of what we'd call the "deadly sins": pride, envy, wrath, greed, and so on. So he couldn't handle things and would go to dark places, Dr Soong didn't know how to fix it right away so he had to spend decades working on Data's chip and that's why he was going to give it to him in "Brothers", because he finally finished work on it to his satisfaction.

I feel also that things like the "dreaming" and such were things that were maybe beyond Dr Soong's abilities, but he put his thoughts in there in case Data ever was able to make the discovery on his own. You saw in "The Offspring" how Lal grew beyond what Data was able to give her, so Dr Soong probably would've known it was possible for the child to exceed the abilities of the parent!

 

[Timo]

Well I don't know if Lore had to be trying to take over the whole galaxy to be dangerous. He was very clearly a murderer and had absolutely no regard for life, so that feels like he's pretty dangerous.

Hmm. When would Lore have murdered?

When the colonists died, he wasn't even alive. We have only his word that the deaths should be added to his CV. In "Datalore", he talks a lot and never kills anybody, despite having plenty of potential victims at his supposedly missing mercy. In "Brothers", he again talks of having been a naughty murderer, hinting at having slain the Pakleds who helped him, but we get no proof. And then he attacks his father (well, defends himself from a feeble attack with excessive force), and again fails to kill.

Lore seems to be deeply delusional about a lot of things. Being capable of murder may rank among those - Data has a far greater onscreen tally on taking lives.

I don't feel there is any reason to doubt the story with the Crystalline Entity. Lore didn't have to control it or even hurt the colony himself, but he did lure it there to kill everyone!

Says Lore. But the Entity finds prey without assistance. And when it does, it appears to kill quickly. So how could those kids draw the pretty pictures of it? Seems more likely the Omicron Theta folks with those kids were the ones studying the beast and ultimately sending it towards the colony, which thus had plenty of time to prepare. And the preparations just did nothing for those who stayed, while giving time for Soong to depart.

He was very clearly in communication with it and he was going to lower the shields so it could attack the Enterprise!

And then the shields were lowered to let Lore be beamed out, and the CE just floated there, beduffled, and then flew away...

For all his gloating, Lore again failed to actually achieve or even attempt anything lethal. Dropping the shields should have been trivial; killing the Crushers, slowly and sadistically if need be, not particularly complicated, either.

With the Borg I feel they clearly said he gave them a purpose and a vision, and that included murder and experimenting on people. That seems pretty awful. Without Lore maybe more of the Borg would've followed Hugh?

Perhaps. But they are Borg...

I feel what was wrong with Lore was his emotions were unbalanced and he was like totally full of what we'd call the "deadly sins": pride, envy, wrath, greed, and so on. So he couldn't handle things and would go to dark places, Dr Soong didn't know how to fix it right away so he had to spend decades working on Data's chip and that's why he was going to give it to him in "Brothers", because he finally finished work on it to his satisfaction.

Seems likely. But having Lore be messed up and having him actually be a murderer are different things, and we probably couldn't go to court with the latter.

I feel also that things like the "dreaming" and such were things that were maybe beyond Dr Soong's abilities, but he put his thoughts in there in case Data ever was able to make the discovery on his own. You saw in "The Offspring" how Lal grew beyond what Data was able to give her, so Dr Soong probably would've known it was possible for the child to exceed the abilities of the parent!

I trust Soongian androids were much more than the sum total of their programming, too. They just wouldn't be that big a deal otherwise.

Timo Saloniemi