Poll Your Opinion on Subtitles for Klingons

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Agreed. Too many Americans (I've noticed, as an American) seem to have an almost allergic reaction to subtitles. I think it locks people out of appreciating films that come from different languages and cultures, which can be a healthy exercise in its own right.

Too many people are "Lazy" when it comes to subtitles. It's not exclusive to Americans.

My mom couldn't get into the spoken "Klingon" portions either because of subtitles.

We need the entire WORLD to watch "Foreign Films" in their original language with target language specific subtitles. It'll help everybody's reading skills and help them understand a culture in their original language without Native language dubs.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

IIRC they switched to English when Burnham translated Klingon with a universal translator after she boarded the sarcophagus ship.

That I'm fine with, because that's generally consistent with how Trek films portrayed Klingons. They speak Klingon among themselves and only speak English when humans are present.

I kinda wish the Berman era shows had shown Klingons speaking their language more often in that fashion. I thought it was cool in the early episodes of ENTERPRISE where we generally heard the alien languages more often, disappointed that got dropped along the way. I recently watched "Judgement" and despite how close they got to replicating the court scenes in TUC they dropped the UT devices. The Klingons all speak English, as Archer doesn't even need to listen to a UT device like Kirk and McCoy did.

 

[cultcross]

It's not particularly the subtitles which are the issue, but the scenes themselves. The Klingon spoken here is slow, stilted and seems unnatural, the scenes becoming very static while the actors chew their way through the dialogue. The Klingon scenes liven up considerably as soon as they switch to English.

 

[lawman]

I don't mind watching subtitled films. It just makes sense, when the actors are acting in their native language. In DSC, though, that obviously wasn't the case.

(Hey! Why didn't the show cast real Klingons for those roles? Talk about Hollywood prejudice!... )

 

[HugeLobes]

Just finished watching season three of The Bridge, which features subtitles over the spoken Danish/Swedish.

This isn't something I care about because the show is shot in Denmark and Sweden and stars Danish and Swedish actors. Even though I can't follow word-for-word, I enjoy their performances because they are speaking in their own languages. It takes little from my enjoyment of the show.

In Discovery, that's not the case. These are regular actors forced to deliver long speeches in a language only a smattering of people actually understand. I can tell they aren't comfortable reading those lines.

This is nothing to do with laziness on my part and everything to do with poor decision making. The only real reason for them to speak Klingon is 'authenticity' and perhaps making them seem more alien.

Firstly, 'authenticity' doesn't seem that important in this kind of show. Secondly, they already seem alien enough through character decision.

In fact, I'd argue the use of subs is laziness on the part of the creators. Klingons might have looked different before, but they used to distinguish themselves through how they carried themselves, how they spoke, and the views they espoused. That's what made them seem alien, and it worked way better from a storytelling POV. You could argue that having them look really out-there and speaking in Klingon is just a lazy way to make them seem alien.

And even if you accept the authenticity and otherness, is it really worth it for such stilted, incomprehensible dialogue?

 

[fireproof78]

Why?

Because I want more alien language and not just the universal translator. That to me is more lazy in this day and age.

The only real reason for them to speak Klingon is 'authenticity' and perhaps making them seem more alien.

Exactly.

And even if you accept the authenticity and otherness, is it really worth it for such stilted, incomprehensible dialogue?

Yes, it is, to me. I know I'm in the minority, and I'm ok with that. I would rather them attempt more alien dialog and design, and potentially fail, than just more pretending that they speak an alien language that's being translated.

 

[thribs]

They should be speaking English. All context in what they’re saying is lost in Klingon.

 

[fireproof78]

Here's a question. I've seen it repeatedly stated that the Discovery Klingon speaking was not done well.

Ok, does that mean if the Klingons spoke more clearly that subtitles would be ok?

 

[MvRojo]

Here's a question. I've seen it repeatedly stated that the Discovery Klingon speaking was not done well.

Ok, does that mean if the Klingons spoke more clearly that subtitles would be ok?

One complaint I've seen is that the actors aren't able to speak the Klingon lines through the new style Klingon makeup. But I think at least Mary Chieffo has done a great job being expressive through her makeup.

 

[HugeLobes]

Ok, does that mean if the Klingons spoke more clearly that subtitles would be ok?

Don't really see why that would make a difference. Clear or not, I can't understand Klingon. Neither can the actors. Neither can the vast majority of viewers. I respect that it's worth it for you, but to me using subtitles in this manner is picking style over substance.

 

[fireproof78]

Don't really see why that would make a difference. Clear or not, I can't understand Klingon. Neither can the actors. Neither can the vast majority of viewers. I respect that it's worth it for you, but to me using subtitles in this manner is picking style over substance.

Wanting aliens to be alien is style over substance?

 

[HugeLobes]

Wanting aliens to be alien is style over substance?

In this instance, yes. Check out the Klingons in TNG and DS9. Yes, they had their certain look, but the way they carried themselves and spoke marked them out from other species. They spoke and acted like Klingons, and that was what made them different. You didn't need them to speak in Klingon all the time.

I would rather them attempt more alien dialog and design

Okay, so the design and the way they sound is the style. What they're saying and how they act is the substance.

Above, you said that 'stilted, incomprehensible dialogue' is worth it just to portray otherness and authenticity. To me, that suggests that you're willing to let a stylistic decision get in the way of the substance. You're okay to let the dialogue suffer if i makes characters seem more alien.

To me, using Klingon with subs in Discovery seems like a cheap way to make the race seem more alien and unique. I think this point is backed up by how over-the-top they went with costumes and makeup.

 

[fireproof78]

In this instance, yes. Check out the Klingons in TNG and DS9. Yes, they had their certain look, but the way they carried themselves and spoke marked them out from other species. They spoke and acted like Klingons, and that was what made them different. You didn't need them to speak in Klingon all the time.

All the time? No, I don't need that. I just would prefer that alien nature being enhanced. So, even if they were still having make up like TNG or DS9 Klingons, I would still want the Klingons to speak Klingon with other Klingons. At least for a brief period of time.

So, if the performances could be done better, without the stilted dialogue, would that make it better?

The negative reaction I'm seeing is more to the dialogue and the make up, so in the execution, rather than in the concept.

 

[Dukhat]

In this instance, yes. Check out the Klingons in TNG and DS9. Yes, they had their certain look, but the way they carried themselves and spoke marked them out from other species. They spoke and acted like Klingons, and that was what made them different.

I wouldn't go that far in glorifying TNG-era Klingons. To me they were nothing more than rowdy biker gangs in space.

 

[fireproof78]

I wouldn't go that far in glorifying TNG-era Klingons. To me they were nothing more than rowdy biker gangs in space.

That was the Golden Age of Klingons!!!!

 

[HugeLobes]

I wouldn't go that far in glorifying TNG-era Klingons. To me they were nothing more than rowdy biker gangs in space.

Yeah, I don't love them in TNG either. I think DS9 understood Klingons better than TNG, perhaps because DS9 had a better sense of humour. It's always hard when you introduce one member of species to act as the outsider and then try building an entire civilisation around them. That's why the Ferengi episodes were so bad.

In any case, my point is more about the way they were portrayed.

 

[fireproof78]

In any case, my point is more about the way they were portrayed.

So, DS9 style Klingons using subtitles would be fine as long as the portrayal was good?

 

[HugeLobes]

No! The way they speak is part of that portrayal. I don't even care if they go back to TOS Klingon appearances - what matters is what they say and do, and using subs just gets in the way for the gimmicky notion of having them seem more alien, which is something you could show more effectively in less obvious ways.

 

[fireproof78]

No! The way they speak is part of that portrayal. I don't even care if they go back to TOS Klingon appearances - what matters is what they say and do, and using subs just gets in the way for the gimmicky notion of having them seem more alien, which is something you could show more effectively in less obvious ways.

Agree to disagree on this point

 

[Mudd]

It's not particularly the subtitles which are the issue, but the scenes themselves. The Klingon spoken here is slow, stilted and seems unnatural, the scenes becoming very static while the actors chew their way through the dialogue. The Klingon scenes liven up considerably as soon as they switch to English.

Pretty much true.

As far as foreign language films are concerned, some people prefer dubbed dialogue to subtitles because they want to watch a movie rather than reading the bottom of a screen. Personally I prefer subtitles - but not for make-up languages that just slow things down unnecessarily.