Starfleet Tactical Marine Corps

[The Wormhole]

The guys in black outfits on DS9 are obviously a ground force of some sort, even though they all use naval style ranks.

It is reasonable to assume Colonel West is not actually an colonel as he has normal Starfleet uniform and Vice Admiral rank insignia. Maybe 'colonel' is just his name or nickname.

That is the interpretation the novel continuity has taken, "Colonel" is just a nickname used for Admiral West.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

As I said ages ago in this thread, with the technology involved Starfleet would have little use for ground forces. Furthermore, we see Starfleet characters doing quite varied tasks within a department. Physicist and xenobiologist need different training too, yet they both are science department blueshirts. Even if some SF personnel had unusually extensive ground combat training, doesn't mean they wouldn't belong to the security department with the rest of the redshirts.

And yet most episodes have them visiting planets (ie ground), and not all the exploration can be done in a few hours, so the idea of 'medium term' units (perhaps as noted, similar to Green Berets or Marine Raiders) doesn't seem that far out (the blue shirt security from WNMHGB and the navy shirted HRT from TFF could be from these units) that can serve as regular security but are also trained for extra duties as needed.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Avocado Berets, please.

 

[Tenacity]

That's not how proof works.

If a character had at some point specifically stated that Marines didn't exist, that would be proof.

As things stand, it's unproven one way or the other.

it's true that Starfleet Marines have never been mentioned onscreen.

Up until TVH the federation president wasn't mentioned, but no one ever said prior that such a person or office didn't exist.

with the technology involved Starfleet would have little use for ground forces

Countries with nuclear weapons still have rifle squads.

Starfleet does all that. There is no role for marines that is not already filled by redshirts.

The US Navy has masters-at-arms, but they're not Marines.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

The US Navy has masters-at-arms, but they're not Marines.

Nor are they SEALs (which the AR-558 and Adijion Prime units are plausibly equivalent to), in fact MAA aren't/weren't even source rating for SEALs except during a brief period in the 2000s.

 

[Tenacity]

Nor are they SEALs (which the AR-558 and Adijion Prime units are plausibly equivalent to),

I saw no indication that the personnel on AR558 were anything like special forces, more that they were infantry.

In the case of Ajilon Prime, again not special forces, they were (imo) just a random collection of Starfleet personnel from different specialties.

 

[Vger23]

Fans get so wanky about MACOS, Starfleet Marines, and Section 31.

 

[Vger23]

I saw no indication that the personnel on AR558 were anything like special forces, more that they were infantry.

In the case of Ajilon Prime, again not special forces, they were (imo) just a random collection of Starfleet personnel from different specialties.

I agree with your analysis. If there were a "more military branch" of Starfleet or in service to the Federation, we would surely have seen them in DS9 during the Dominion War.

As it stands, DS9 has multiple seasons that provide the best "proof" we have is that Starfleet is a multi-role organization that includes (not limited to) defense and military.

Keep it simple folks!

 

[fireproof78]

I agree with your analysis. If there were a "more military branch" of Starfleet or in service to the Federation, we would surely have seen them in DS9 during the Dominion War.

As it stands, DS9 has multiple seasons that provide the best "proof" we have is that Starfleet is a multi-role organization that includes (not limited to) defense and military.

Keep it simple folks!

Finally, this debate is over! Thank you

I mean, I still want Starfleet Marines, but what do I know?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Finally, this debate is over! Thank you

I mean, I still want Starfleet Marines, but what do I know?

Alright Finally!!!!!!

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[Vger23]

Finally, this debate is over! Thank you

I mean, I still want Starfleet Marines, but what do I know?

Alright Finally!!!!!!

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Yes, I'm absolutely certain that will be the end of it now!!

 

[Tenacity]

^ Dream on.

 

[The Wormhole]

Finally, this debate is over!

GENE'S VISION! TNG WRITER'S GUIDE EXCERPT! PICARD'S LINE IN PEAK PERFORMANCE! ADMIRAL FORREST IN

Ah you know what, fuck it. I just don't care on this subject anymore.

 

[fireproof78]

GENE'S VISION! TNG WRITER'S GUIDE EXCERPT! PICARD'S LINE IN PEAK PERFORMANCE! ADMIRAL FORREST IN

Ah you know what, fuck it. I just don't care on this subject anymore.

Not worth the ulcer, trust me

^ Dream on.

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[Shamrock Holmes]

I saw no indication that the personnel on AR558 were anything like special forces, more that they were infantry.

They were just infantry though, they had engineers and at least originally medical and logistics personnel (though they appeared to have mostly died before the Defiant arrived).

Also, as with the MACOs, the relatively high rank of the unit's CO (Starfleet Captain-by-title, either Captain or Commander by rank*) given the small size suggests it's a specialist unit rather than general service infantry unit (although something along the lines of the USCG's DOG, the RAF Regiment or a SEALs/Seebees combo might be a better description).

* Whereas an infantry company would only rate a Lieutenant.

 

[Tenacity]

Whereas an infantry company would only rate a Lieutenant.

A company is usually commanded by a captain, or possibly a major. A lieutenant will command a platoon.

they had engineers and at least originally medical and logistics personnel

A corpsman would be expected in a company, the "logistics personnel" (who I don't recall) could have been part of the company headquarters unit.

The engineers might have been attached to the company to investigate the Dominion communications device.

 

[SolarisOne]

Just going to throw this out there for everyone: TOS Redshirts are an extremely bad example for proving the Federation doesn't need specialized planet-based troops.

Fans get so wanky about MACOS, Starfleet Marines, and Section 31.

Screw Section 31. I'm glad David Mack killed it off in the Litverse.

As for some kind of "Marine" force? Starfleet's entire canon attitude and structure is utterly ill-suited to planetary engagements, expeditionary or otherwise. Even having such a force under Starfleet at all would be a mistake, I think. It would be a separate service--a direct successor to MACO in mission, if not in name.

The evidence doesn't point to said planet-based service being canon, but then there are a lot of canon things in Trek that are completely unrealistic and bug the hell people who have even an inkling of how these things actually work. Call it "wanky" to point out those flaws and try to find solutions that endeavor to stay in the overall spirit of Trek if you want, but that's just the way it is.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

A company is usually commanded by a captain, or possibly a major. A lieutenant will command a platoon.

Starfleet uses naval ranks and Siege of AR558 confirms this is still the case for ground combat personnel so a company commander would be a Navy Lieutenant (O3), whereas the investigation unit and it's security team were led by a Starfleet Captain (or at least a lieutenant commander with the title of Captain)* and an additional full or lieutenant commander as XO.

* NB: Although it is indirect evidence at best, it's interesting to note that the MACOs also seem to have uprated their ranks similarly, as they have a Major commanding a Platoon (which as you note above is usually a Lieutenant's job), which would suggest that "Captain" Loomis was actually a full Captain. Presumably Commander Parker would have led the technical team, whereas Loomis (and Lt Parkin) led the troops.

 

[fireproof78]

Just going to throw this out there for everyone: TOS Redshirts are an extremely bad example for proving the Federation doesn't need specialized planet-based troops.

Starfleet Security is woefully inadequate on a starship, much less on a planet.

 

[Tenacity]

Screw Section 31. I'm glad David Mack killed it off in the Litverse.

Section Thirty-one, cut off one head and two grow back.

Starfleet uses naval ranks and Siege of AR558 confirms this is still the case for ground combat personnel so a company commander would be a Navy Lieutenant (O3),

Yeah, problem with all that is the original size of the unit was about 150 personnel, typical size for a small company, and it was originally commanded by a Captain who was referred to by that rank (and who was killed prior to Sisko's arrival), not a Lieutenant.

Starfleet Security is woefully inadequate on a starship, much less on a planet.

I thought the red shirt who was escorting Captain Decker gave a pretty good accounting of himself, rare exception.

, it's interesting to note that the MACOs also seem to have uprated their ranks similarly, as they have a Major commanding a Platoon

I think that was a case of that particular unit being sent on such a special high profile mission, that a higher ranked officer was assigned to command that MACO unit.

In my own head .... I doubt a MACO Major (O-4) typically commands that few people.