The odds are certainly in favor of that, but the USMA at West Point does educate students from other countries and has for at least 100 years. Who knows what the enrollment will look like in a "United Earth" era.
Starfleet Tactical Marine Corps
- Thread starter Shamrock Holmes
- Start date
The odds are certainly in favor of that, but the USMA at West Point does educate students from other countries and has for at least 100 years. Who knows what the enrollment will look like in a "United Earth" era.
No, most West Point cadets are American citizens, but as covered above not all.
It's literally in the name: Military Assault Command Operations == MACO
Last edited:
This is the same forum where some have tried to say Starfleet is somehow not a fleet, despite it being part of the name. So of course Military Assault Command Operations is somehow non-military because reasons. And Gene's Vision. Can't forget Gene's Vision.
I think it's very difficult to see how Military Assault Command could be anything other than a military unit - particularly as they are identifed in dialogue as such.
FORREST: How many are staying aboard?
ARCHER: Some haven't decided yet, but I don't think more then eight or nine will be leaving. I talked to General Casey a few hours ago.
FORREST: His team should be arriving at eighteen hundred hours. I was surprised you asked for them. You think you'll be comfortable with the military on board?
ARCHER: I don't have a problem with non-Starfleet personnel. The General tell me these are the best he has. I'm going to need all the muscle I can get when we cross into the Expanse.
However, I think the above dialogue also indicates that they are only a small portion of the personnel in Military Assault Command, and also implies that it is an elite unit (though potentially more in the line of the 75th Ranger Regiment, 101st Airborne or the British RAF or Parachute Regiments than necessarily special operations I suppose) within a larger military whole, rather than being the entirety of it.
FORREST: How many are staying aboard?
ARCHER: Some haven't decided yet, but I don't think more then eight or nine will be leaving. I talked to General Casey a few hours ago.
FORREST: His team should be arriving at eighteen hundred hours. I was surprised you asked for them. You think you'll be comfortable with the military on board?
ARCHER: I don't have a problem with non-Starfleet personnel. The General tell me these are the best he has. I'm going to need all the muscle I can get when we cross into the Expanse.
However, I think the above dialogue also indicates that they are only a small portion of the personnel in Military Assault Command, and also implies that it is an elite unit (though potentially more in the line of the 75th Ranger Regiment, 101st Airborne or the British RAF or Parachute Regiments than necessarily special operations I suppose) within a larger military whole, rather than being the entirety of it.
I 'd forgotten the exact wording and it's interesting. General Casey doesn't said they're the the best there is, he says they're the best he has.
Not quite the same thing.
As if the general is making a honest admission as to the unit's abilities..
When was this? There are frequent debates over whether Starfleet is a military organization, but I can't recall anyone saying it wasn't a fleet.
Last edited:
Exactly: the military is the military, and the MACO are the MACO. The military is not the MACO and the MACO are not the military.
I mean, how silly can it get? Is the US Postal Service the US? Is the police dog the police? Can't people today read?
The writers went out of their way to establish a small special unit that would reveal extremely little about the thing the writers did not wish to touch: the UE military. And then some people decide this small unit equates the entire military and establishes everything about that mother organization. Talk about an epic fail.
Timo Saloniemi
The military is the military, and the MACO's are a milittary organization.
It's not like they were named CACO, the Civilian Assault Command Operations.
Maybe it's just me, but I think you've got your questions the wrong way around. Try these instead.
Is the US Postal Service, a Postal Service? Yes
Is a Police Dog, a dog? Yes
Is Military Assault Command, a military unit? Yes.
It's buried somewhere in the military arguments. Basically the thinking goes "fleet" somehow has military connotations and since As We Know Starfleet Isn't A Military, it therefore can't be a fleet either. Those who argue this refuse to explain how it can still be named Starfleet if it isn't a fleet, and I'm getting sick of this topic again just by taking this trip down Nostalgia Lane.
I could wrong, but IIRC the argument was mostly that Starfleet isn't a (space) navy not that it isn't a fleet.
Sort of both, as it turns out:
navy is a shade of the color blue.
starfleet isn't a fleet that operates on stars. so not starfleet.
unless marines operate on-from water theyre not "marines." (bullshit).
i've never held the idea that the macos were some how the only military in existence on earth. theyre a unit on loan from one of earth's nations militarys. or a unit from earth-gov's military.
Whichever, i feel the macos are a subdivision of a larger military
starfleet isn't a fleet that operates on stars. so not starfleet.
unless marines operate on-from water theyre not "marines." (bullshit).
i've never held the idea that the macos were some how the only military in existence on earth. theyre a unit on loan from one of earth's nations militarys. or a unit from earth-gov's military.
Whichever, i feel the macos are a subdivision of a larger military
And the only problem is that the sentiment apparently isn't universal.
Or then I'm reading too much into these "If Starfleet Marines exist, they must be the direct successors of MACO" arguments here, as if MACO could and should stand for the UE Military or the UE Marines...
From "The Expanse", obviously the MACO are part of the wider UE organization calling itself the Military, while Starfleet is not part of that. This in itself complicates the question of "is Starfleet military?" from the semantic viewpoint, but it concusively answers the "is MACO military?" in every possible way, practical, semantic, whatnot.
It's just that us knowing pretty much everything about MACO and very little about the Military lays a fairly poor groundwork for discussing what became of the UE fighting forces when the UFP was founded. We know from ST Beyond that the MACO ceased to exist around 2161; we should not, say, read that as proof that the UE Military ceased to exist (even if it probably did).
Timo Saloniemi
Or then I'm reading too much into these "If Starfleet Marines exist, they must be the direct successors of MACO" arguments here, as if MACO could and should stand for the UE Military or the UE Marines...
From "The Expanse", obviously the MACO are part of the wider UE organization calling itself the Military, while Starfleet is not part of that. This in itself complicates the question of "is Starfleet military?" from the semantic viewpoint, but it concusively answers the "is MACO military?" in every possible way, practical, semantic, whatnot.
It's just that us knowing pretty much everything about MACO and very little about the Military lays a fairly poor groundwork for discussing what became of the UE fighting forces when the UFP was founded. We know from ST Beyond that the MACO ceased to exist around 2161; we should not, say, read that as proof that the UE Military ceased to exist (even if it probably did).
Timo Saloniemi
...Just to clarify:
The dangerous idea I was trying to fight was that the above claims would have the definite article.
That is, the nature of the MACO was not in question - it is "a military unit", it is "military" in the adjective sense. But it sure as hell is not "the military"!
If one thinks the definite article applies, then one will evaluate the military of the UE by the known facts of the MACO, which is a baaaad idea, leading to silliness such as "the UE military has never fought for real".
Timo Saloniemi
The dangerous idea I was trying to fight was that the above claims would have the definite article.
That is, the nature of the MACO was not in question - it is "a military unit", it is "military" in the adjective sense. But it sure as hell is not "the military"!
If one thinks the definite article applies, then one will evaluate the military of the UE by the known facts of the MACO, which is a baaaad idea, leading to silliness such as "the UE military has never fought for real".
Timo Saloniemi
In Star Trek Online, the MACO's continue through to the 25th century.
Ok, I understand your point a little better now. Basically agree
Agreed.
I think the most sensible way to interpret Reed's "no practical experience" claim, would be assume that he was comparing MACO (and by extension UE military in general) experience in fighting aliens in non-terrestrial environments (which he correctly identifies his Armory Team as being more experienced at), rather than suggesting that "the UE military has never fought for real".
But that game is full of utter nonsense.
As for 'Earth Army', as adamant I am that there aren't or shouldn't be Starfleet Marines, I actually think there could be various planetary armies and militias. These however would be more like national guard type organisations, who help in cases of various natural disasters or defend the planet in the unlikely case of an invasion. In some places they might be the same thing as the local police or fire and rescue service. They are not deployed outside their homeplanets and would be run by the member governments, not the Federation. There is no 'Federation Army.'
I actually was thinking of something similar as well. At most they might be able to function within solar systems at government installations.
That could be right...in ST:B, when they're looking up Balthazar Edison's military record, the phrase "United Earth Military" is mentioned.
I always thought this was just another name for the MACOS, but who knows.
Similar threads
