Starfleet Tactical Marine Corps

[J.T.B.]

Redshirts - the ones we're used to seeing from TOS - are a strictly starship-based force. They are security guards onboard ship, nothing more.

That's clearly not all they are. The way they were used in "The Devil in the Dark," "assemble the security troops" (my emphasis) is very much like a traditional 19th-20th century naval cruiser forming up its marines for a landing force.

However if you want to take and hold a planet for later occupation, ground forces are a necessity.

The way we think of things now. But when you have established orbital control with vessels that can track any moving life form and lay down phaser barrages with pinpoint accuracy, that's a different kind of situation.

Any weaponry that can be laid down from orbit (or from anywhere else), can be defeated by a suitably armored and intelligent ground force. Hell, even transporters can be inhibited. Whatever weapons a naval fleet can bring to bear against an enemy, can be countered. And those countermeasures can themselves be countered. It's a never ending battle.

But that's not a ground force-to-ground force battle, it's a more static contest of the ships trying to reduce the "fortifications" on the planet and establish superiority from above. And probably foremost a battle of sensors and ECM, which gives an advantage to the "high ground." The ground forces might end up no more than "security guards" for the surface starship-fighting installations.

 

[Longinus]

But that's not a ground force-to-ground force battle, it's a more static contest of the ships trying to reduce the "fortifications" on the planet and establish superiority from above. And probably foremost a battle of sensors and ECM, which gives an advantage to the "high ground." The ground forces might end up no more than "security guards" for the surface starship-fighting installations.

Yep, this.

In any case, apart the deleted scene with a guy referred as 'colonel' there is little indication that there is some separate branch or organisation of dedicated ground guys. SF ground installations are manned by normal SF personnel, and it is posting just like any other. I'm sure that during their career SF personnel can go from ship duty to ground duty and then back; there is little reason to think that these are separate things.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Another long post I'm afraid...

Depends. I dislike overemphasising military stuff in Trek but that doesn't mean that there can't be any combat ever (TWOK is obviously great even though there's quite a bit of fighting, but I really didn't care for the Dominion war or Xindi war stories for example.) My main point is that I prefer Starfleet to be mainly an exploration force with some military duties. Marines' whole point is that they're soldiers first and foremost, so they don't fit in that picture.

I somewhat agree with "soldiers first and foremost" beign problematic (and the USMC are some of the most first and foremost" soldierly types around). Which is why I favour them being restricted to a specialist unit rather than a top-level public facing command (ala the USMC), in fact the way I see it, even the term Starfleet Marine Corps signals they are a lower level unit (equivalent to called it the US Navy Marine Corps), ala the Royal Marines (which are infantry trained members of the Naval Service rather than a seperate organisation), rather than the Federation Marine Corps (a top-level (four to five-star) command, which would in my 'head-canon' be the commando elements of the Federation Reserves (equivalent of the US National Guard or state forces).

Sure, but 'Starfleet Tactical' is probably just a department of Starfleet that devises tactics. It's like those guys in Pentagon who devise plans in case Canada attacks and whatnot. It has nothing to do with any Marines (which probably do not exist.)

Those specific redshirts certainly were. But it doesn't follow that if ground forces were required they would be from different organisation or branch. We saw Starfleet ground installations manned by similar personnel.

Why? We certainly have seen Starfleet personnel fighting on ground, doesn't mean they're part of some unique division. Besides, unlike DS9s highly implausible depictions of 24th century ground warfare might lead one to believe, given the technology large scale ground combat would be highly unlikely. Establishing space and air superiority would get 99% of the job done in most cases. Besides, even in DS9 those ground forces seemed to be regular SF personnel.

Hypothetically, Starfleet Tactical might be arranged similarly to this:

Tactical Advisor to the Chief of Operations - Day-to-Day Commander of the Branch, likely a junior flag officer during the early years, probably a "four pip" rank flag or general officer.
-- Head of Analysis - equivalent to DARPA, ATEC and similar in-service military units. Shelby headed the Borg Analysis Team here. Liases with Office of Science Ops for lab work. Probably a "three pip" rank flag or general officer.
-- Head of Special Operations - Contributes tactical expertise and manpower to situations to complex for generalist starship personnel. Probably a "three pip" rank flag or general officer.

---- I (Fleet Protection) Corps - specialist "base defense" units ala the RAF Regiment, mostly Starfleet Security personnel, but augmented with Science and Engineering experts, the "troops" at AR-558 would be primarily these. Administratively lead by a junior flag or general officer (one or two "pip").
--- II (Desert Recon) Corps - hot-weather rescue/assault and all-weather recon, supplements SI's Ranger Teams as needed in the later, aka as the "Sehlats" to the displeasure of the traditional Vulcan recruits. Administratively lead by a junior flag or general officer, but field leadership is at senior officer level (Captain/Colonel to Lt Cmdr/Major)
--- III (Polar Commando) Corps - cold-weather and mountain rescue/assault, aka "Starfleet Marine Corps", mostly Humans and Andorians traditionally, potentially Caitians. Administratively lead by a junior flag or general officer, but field leadership is at senior officer level (Captain/Colonel to Lt Cmdr/Major)

 

[Nerys Myk]

No aquatic corps?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Yep, this.

In any case, apart the deleted scene with a guy referred as 'colonel' there is little indication that there is some separate branch or organisation of dedicated ground guys. SF ground installations are manned by normal SF personnel, and it is posting just like any other. I'm sure that during their career SF personnel can go from ship duty to ground duty and then back; there is little reason to think that these are separate things.

Starfleet Tactical is a separate branch/command from the regular 'face of Starfleet' (the exact name of the latter varies Starfleet Exploratory Division is my prefered option), the question is - "Do they just do research?" Given that Tactical Officers are otherwise mostly "doers" throughout Star Trek, it seems reasonable that this is also the case with ST, though I'd say they could be more like a bigger version of SEALs (with elements of the USCG DOG and other similar units), rather than the 'second army and third air force that is the US Marine Corps), ie still regular Starfleet ("navy") personnel*, but trained for the specifics of the role (we know that ground forces train and equip for ninety day field deployments (Siege of AR-558) and anyone who's even done extensive camping never mind military service will I'm sure confirm that that requires a very different skillset than the immediate response shift-based deployments that Starfleet Security personnel are trained for. Or to put it another way:

Security Personnel = USN MA or USCG ME (core rating)
Tactical Operators = USN SO and SWCC (core ratings) not USMC 0311. Note, personnel previously assigned to Member Planet Ground Forces reserve units (Andorian Guard, Bajoran Militia, Pacifica Security etc) may resemble 0321 Recon Marine or 0372 USMC Critical Skills Operator or similar post-transfer.

No aquatic corps?

Not initially at least. Though there are probably aquatics and diver-qualified personnel within III Corps (Aquans, Chelon, Selkies etc) I wouldn't think that ST would require large numbers of tactical experts with aquatic capabilities, as most aquatic operations are likely the responsibility of the (civilian?) Federation Naval Patrol rather than Starfleet.

* In this case, regular military ranks (mostly Private-Sergeant, and Lieutenant to Colonel) would be used to avoid confusion with shipboard weapons specialists rather than them being a separate service. For ease of conversion, I would favour Private, Private First Class (or Lance Corporal), Corporal and Sergeant for troopers (cf Crewman to Petty Officer), with Master Sgt to Chief MSgt for Senior NCOs as this parallels the naval-style better than the actual Marine ranks.

 

[Timo]

Do you see the ground element of the Rura Pente Strike Force needing to be bigger than that?

No. So my point stands - the USMC is bigger than a single Expeditionary Brigade, so the man leading the force at Rura Penthe (possibly the same as the man making this presentation to the President) is unlikely to be the top boss of the entire organization employing such forces.

A Vice Admiral Cornell West or a Colonel West could equally well be in charge of the team that goes to Rura Penthe (just pick the size of the team to suit the rank); a Colonel West wouldn't command this putative Starfleet Marine Corps, and even a Vice Admiral Cornell West might be but a lower rung on the ladder.

I think that Leyton (and Kirk) certainly sector commanders, possibly COpsCore, but the limited starship resources available would on reflection suggest that they (particularly Kirk) aren't the 'big cheese'.

Then again, a 'big cheese' Kirk could have commanded unlimited starship resources into being elsewhere - perhaps he liked the idea of using 100% of Starfleet for deep space exploration, at least during this fateful moment when V'Ger invaded?

Any weaponry that can be laid down from orbit (or from anywhere else), can be defeated by a suitably armored and intelligent ground force.

In contrast, you only need bows and arrows to destroy a ground force if said ground force is limited by the same rules of engagement as your orbital force. It may take awhile, but in the end, the ground troops will be dead and your goals unreached.

Ground troops are different from orbital troops in one principal respect: they are potential victims. It's possible to kill a ground trooper from the ground in Trek. It's impossible to kill an orbital trooper from the ground in Trek as far as we know.

In order to control a planet, then, you might do wisely never to deploy any victims down there. Killing of your ground troops empowers the locals. Both in the scenario where they manage to kill one of yours to the loss of sixty million of theirs, and in the scenario where they kill one of yours and you aren't allowed to kill any of theirs.

If you want destruction, by all means send in troops, and you are guaranteed a good fight. If you want obedience, use weapons of selective mass destruction (say, poisons that only kill all the male babies on the planet, or phasers only aimed at cities beginning with an L).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

No. So my point stands - the USMC is bigger than a single Expeditionary Brigade, so the man leading the force at Rura Penthe (possibly the same as the man making this presentation to the President) is unlikely to be the top boss of the entire organization employing such forces.

Depends on the size of the force, and it's not uncommon in SpecOps as I understand it for the field commander of op to conduct the briefing on it in the RW, particularly if such operators are a small, elite part of a bigger whole (probably more common with SEALs than say Delta/Rangers for instance).

The "top boss" in the commander of Starfleet, certainly they aren't leading it, nor perhaps is the overall head of the branch (if they came up from the research side), but if they started on the "operations" side then I don't see why they necessarily wouldn't, though as they'd mostly be using one of the three or four types of sub-unit, the tertiary "boss" (head of the main speciality in use) would seem to be the most senior likely commander (and would be a two-star at most, maybe a Captain/Colonel).

A Vice Admiral Cornell West or a Colonel West could equally well be in charge of the team that goes to Rura Penthe (just pick the size of the team to suit the rank); a Colonel West wouldn't command this putative Starfleet Marine Corps, and even a Vice Admiral Cornell West might be but a lower rung on the ladder.

That's a fair point. Let's look at it another way: Naval Special Warfare Command and the CEC (both lead by RADMs) are both Brigade-sized units (and could be part of Starfleet Tactical Special Operations in this model) and the USCG DOG unit was demi-brigade/regiment sized Force Protection, Tactical and CBRN unit commanded by a Captain (comparable to the RAF Regiment but not the USMC SFR or USAF SFs).

A branch that combined all of the above would be a verstile and capable unit, but not one as specifically "war-fighting"-centric as the USMC's MEBs, which would fit with the apparent politics of Starfleet's peacetime better and would perhaps resembles a hybrid of US Navy Expeditionary Combat Command and Navy Special Ops rather than Fleet Marine Force/Marine Expeditionary Forces? That combination would probably the three-star command of JP Hanson from Best of Both Worlds.

 

[SolarisOne]

Shouldn't people who don't like the thought of Starfleet being military love the idea of a Marine Corps? It keeps Starfleet's hands clean and set aside for all that exploration and science-y stuff, while allowing for the reality that the Federation must have a military in order to fend off invaders and the like.

I mean, it's not like the Federation's suddenly going to start conquering worlds, just because it has a dedicated military arm. It's still the Federation, after all--just a more realistic one.

 

[J.T.B.]

Shouldn't people who don't like the thought of Starfleet being military love the idea of a Marine Corps? It keeps Starfleet's hands clean and set aside for all that exploration and science-y stuff, while allowing for the reality that the Federation must have a military in order to fend off invaders and the like.

That is kind of like the arrangement used in Robert Heinlein's Space Cadet (1948): The Interplanetary Patrol is all officers and officer-cadets, highly educated in science, who control the ships that explore and patrol the solar system (as well as a network of orbital nuclear bombs to keep Earth peaceful!). When needed, they give a ride to the Space Marines, a more traditional military fighting force. Roddenberry mentioned late in life that that book had been an influence, but the closest we saw to marines in the OS was the redshirt security force.

 

[Phaser Two]

HANSON: The truth is, hell, we are not ready. We've known they were coming for over a year. We've thrown every resource we have into this, but still
RIKER: Then you're convinced it is the Borg?
SHELBY: (blonde woman) That's what I'm here to find out. The initial descriptions of these surface conditions are almost identical to your reports from system J two five.
PICARD: Commander Riker wrote those reports. He agrees with you.
HANSON: Commander Shelby took over Borg tactical analysis six months ago. I've learned to give her a wide latitude when I want to get things done. That's how I intend to operate here.
SHELBY: My priority has been to develop some kind, any kind of defence strategy
RIKER: Obviously nothing we have now can stop them.
SHELBY: We've been designing new weapons but they're all still on the drawing board.
HANSON: We expected much more lead time. Your encounter with the Borg was over seven thousand light years away.
PICARD: If this is the Borg, it would indicate they have a source of power far superior to our own.
SHELBY: I'd like to see the colony site as soon as possible, Captain.
RIKER: It'll be dark there in thirty minutes. We've scheduled an away team for dawn.
PICARD: Number One, why don't you show the Commander to her quarters?
RIKER: It's our poker night, Admiral. There's always an open seat for you.
HANSON: Another time, Commander. Your captain and I have a lot to cover. But rumour has it Commander Shelby's played a hand or two.
(Riker and Shelby leave)
HANSON: Keep your eye on her, Jean Luc. She's one very impressive young lady.
PICARD: You seem rather taken with her, JP.
HANSON: Just an old man's fantasies. When Shelby came into Tactical, every admiral's uncle had a take on this Borg business. She cut through it. She put us on track.

First, this is a great thread. I love the military elements of Star Trek.

Second, that's outstanding dialogue from BOBW. I didn't remember it being that good.

Third, Riker was heading off to play poker with the Borg threat looming? And it's interesting to think that the bolded line made it into the shoot. I bet that would have been left out today.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Given the familiarity that Riker had with Hanson, I sometimes wonder if he was supposed to be a returning Admiral Gregory Quinn (played by Ward Costello in "Coming of Age" and "Conspiracy", but was reworked as Hanson due to Costello being unable/unwilling to return?).

 

[Tenacity]

Shouldn't people who don't like the thought of Starfleet being military love the idea of a Marine Corps? It keeps Starfleet's hands clean

Still have the in-universe design of starship possessing multiple torpedo tubes and all those long strips of phaser emitters.

 

[Tenacity]

My main point is that I prefer Starfleet to be mainly an exploration force with some military duties. Marines' whole point is that they're soldiers first and foremost, so they don't fit in that picture.

Marine (as with the fleet) would carry out the activities they were assigned to. If it were exploration, then that. They might do the long term stuff, while the fleet just does fast and curserary exploration.

Sure, but 'Starfleet Tactical' is probably just a department of Starfleet that devises tactics

Maybe more like when the USAF was divided into SAC, TAC and MAC. With tacical handling things like fighters.

SF ground installations are manned by normal SF personnel

Starbases by Starfleet, Marine bases by Marines.

 

[Longinus]

Marine (as with the fleet) would carry out the activities they were assigned to. If it were exploration, then that. They might do the long term stuff, while the fleet just does fast and curserary exploration.

Starfleet does all that. There is no role for marines that is not already filled by redshirts.

Starbases by Starfleet, Marine bases by Marines.

There are no marines.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

There are no marines.

1) We don't know that.
2) Even so...Colonel West notwithstanding, there WILL be Starfleet Marines if a future episode writer feels like it.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Starfleet does all that. There is no role for marines that is not already filled by redshirts.

Even within policing, there are "enhanced capacity" units that deliver different skill mixes than regular patrol officers (SWAT, K9, EOD...) and whether you can them "marines", "commandos", "Security Special Operations" or whatever (I'm personnally increasingly fond of equating Starfleet Ground Forces to a SEALs/Delta Force-GReen Berets hybrid) the training for a group designed to deploy in the field for ninety days and survivable for five months (the team on AR-558) is very different from the guard/patrol officer who gives to walk/ride a 'beat' and go home to his warm every night.

 

[Longinus]

1) We don't know that.

There is no reason to assume they exist, as they're never mentioned.

2) Even so...Colonel West notwithstanding, there WILL be Starfleet Marines if a future episode writer feels like it.

Of course.

 

[Longinus]

Even within policing, there are "enhanced capacity" units that deliver different skill mixes than regular patrol officers (SWAT, K9, EOD...) and whether you can them "marines", "commandos", "Security Special Operations" or whatever (I'm personnally increasingly fond of equating Starfleet Ground Forces to a SEALs/Delta Force-GReen Berets hybrid) the training for a group designed to deploy in the field for ninety days and survivable for five months (the team on AR-558) is very different from the guard/patrol officer who gives to walk/ride a 'beat' and go home to his warm every night.

As I said ages ago in this thread, with the technology involved Starfleet would have little use for ground forces. Furthermore, we see Starfleet characters doing quite varied tasks within a department. Physicist and xenobiologist need different training too, yet they both are science department blueshirts. Even if some SF personnel had unusually extensive ground combat training, doesn't mean they wouldn't belong to the security department with the rest of the redshirts.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

There is no reason to assume they exist, as they're never mentioned.

One can just as easily say there's no reason to assume they DON'T exist...for the exact same reason.

Yes, it's true that Starfleet Marines have never been mentioned onscreen. So they haven't been proven to exist. However they have also not been proven to NOT exist.

So you take your side of the fence, and I'll take mine. And never the twain shall meet.

 

[Longinus]

One can just as easily say there's no reason to assume they DON'T exist...for the exact same reason.

Yes, it's true that Starfleet Marines have never been mentioned onscreen. So they haven't been proven to exist. However they have also not been proven to NOT exist. So whichever side of the fence one chooses, there's just as much evidence to back it up. Which is, no evidence at all.

That's not how proof works.