Starfleet Tactical Marine Corps

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Shamrock Holmes, Sep 5, 2017.

  1. J.T.B.

    J.T.B. Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2005
    That's clearly not all they are. The way they were used in "The Devil in the Dark," "assemble the security troops" (my emphasis) is very much like a traditional 19th-20th century naval cruiser forming up its marines for a landing force.

    The way we think of things now. But when you have established orbital control with vessels that can track any moving life form and lay down phaser barrages with pinpoint accuracy, that's a different kind of situation.

    But that's not a ground force-to-ground force battle, it's a more static contest of the ships trying to reduce the "fortifications" on the planet and establish superiority from above. And probably foremost a battle of sensors and ECM, which gives an advantage to the "high ground." The ground forces might end up no more than "security guards" for the surface starship-fighting installations.
     
  2. Longinus

    Longinus Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2008
    Yep, this.

    In any case, apart the deleted scene with a guy referred as 'colonel' there is little indication that there is some separate branch or organisation of dedicated ground guys. SF ground installations are manned by normal SF personnel, and it is posting just like any other. I'm sure that during their career SF personnel can go from ship duty to ground duty and then back; there is little reason to think that these are separate things.
     
  3. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2009
    Another long post I'm afraid...

    I somewhat agree with "soldiers first and foremost" beign problematic (and the USMC are some of the most first and foremost" soldierly types around). Which is why I favour them being restricted to a specialist unit rather than a top-level public facing command (ala the USMC), in fact the way I see it, even the term Starfleet Marine Corps signals they are a lower level unit (equivalent to called it the US Navy Marine Corps), ala the Royal Marines (which are infantry trained members of the Naval Service rather than a seperate organisation), rather than the Federation Marine Corps (a top-level (four to five-star) command, which would in my 'head-canon' be the commando elements of the Federation Reserves (equivalent of the US National Guard or state forces).

    Hypothetically, Starfleet Tactical might be arranged similarly to this:

    Tactical Advisor to the Chief of Operations - Day-to-Day Commander of the Branch, likely a junior flag officer during the early years, probably a "four pip" rank flag or general officer.
    -- Head of Analysis - equivalent to DARPA, ATEC and similar in-service military units. Shelby headed the Borg Analysis Team here. Liases with Office of Science Ops for lab work. Probably a "three pip" rank flag or general officer.
    -- Head of Special Operations - Contributes tactical expertise and manpower to situations to complex for generalist starship personnel. Probably a "three pip" rank flag or general officer.

    ---- I (Fleet Protection) Corps - specialist "base defense" units ala the RAF Regiment, mostly Starfleet Security personnel, but augmented with Science and Engineering experts, the "troops" at AR-558 would be primarily these. Administratively lead by a junior flag or general officer (one or two "pip").
    --- II (Desert Recon) Corps - hot-weather rescue/assault and all-weather recon, supplements SI's Ranger Teams as needed in the later, aka as the "Sehlats" to the displeasure of the traditional Vulcan recruits. Administratively lead by a junior flag or general officer, but field leadership is at senior officer level (Captain/Colonel to Lt Cmdr/Major)
    --- III (Polar Commando) Corps - cold-weather and mountain rescue/assault, aka "Starfleet Marine Corps", mostly Humans and Andorians traditionally, potentially Caitians. Administratively lead by a junior flag or general officer, but field leadership is at senior officer level (Captain/Colonel to Lt Cmdr/Major)
     
  4. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk A Spock and a smile Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2001
    Location:
    AI Generated Madness
    No aquatic corps?
     
  5. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2009
    Starfleet Tactical is a separate branch/command from the regular 'face of Starfleet' (the exact name of the latter varies Starfleet Exploratory Division is my prefered option), the question is - "Do they just do research?" Given that Tactical Officers are otherwise mostly "doers" throughout Star Trek, it seems reasonable that this is also the case with ST, though I'd say they could be more like a bigger version of SEALs (with elements of the USCG DOG and other similar units), rather than the 'second army and third air force that is the US Marine Corps), ie still regular Starfleet ("navy") personnel*, but trained for the specifics of the role (we know that ground forces train and equip for ninety day field deployments (Siege of AR-558) and anyone who's even done extensive camping never mind military service will I'm sure confirm that that requires a very different skillset than the immediate response shift-based deployments that Starfleet Security personnel are trained for. Or to put it another way:

    Security Personnel = USN MA or USCG ME (core rating)
    Tactical Operators = USN SO and SWCC (core ratings) not USMC 0311. Note, personnel previously assigned to Member Planet Ground Forces reserve units (Andorian Guard, Bajoran Militia, Pacifica Security etc) may resemble 0321 Recon Marine or 0372 USMC Critical Skills Operator or similar post-transfer.

    Not initially at least. Though there are probably aquatics and diver-qualified personnel within III Corps (Aquans, Chelon, Selkies etc) I wouldn't think that ST would require large numbers of tactical experts with aquatic capabilities, as most aquatic operations are likely the responsibility of the (civilian?) Federation Naval Patrol rather than Starfleet.

    * In this case, regular military ranks (mostly Private-Sergeant, and Lieutenant to Colonel) would be used to avoid confusion with shipboard weapons specialists rather than them being a separate service. For ease of conversion, I would favour Private, Private First Class (or Lance Corporal), Corporal and Sergeant for troopers (cf Crewman to Petty Officer), with Master Sgt to Chief MSgt for Senior NCOs as this parallels the naval-style better than the actual Marine ranks.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
    SolarisOne likes this.
  6. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    No. So my point stands - the USMC is bigger than a single Expeditionary Brigade, so the man leading the force at Rura Penthe (possibly the same as the man making this presentation to the President) is unlikely to be the top boss of the entire organization employing such forces.

    A Vice Admiral Cornell West or a Colonel West could equally well be in charge of the team that goes to Rura Penthe (just pick the size of the team to suit the rank); a Colonel West wouldn't command this putative Starfleet Marine Corps, and even a Vice Admiral Cornell West might be but a lower rung on the ladder.

    Then again, a 'big cheese' Kirk could have commanded unlimited starship resources into being elsewhere - perhaps he liked the idea of using 100% of Starfleet for deep space exploration, at least during this fateful moment when V'Ger invaded?

    In contrast, you only need bows and arrows to destroy a ground force if said ground force is limited by the same rules of engagement as your orbital force. It may take awhile, but in the end, the ground troops will be dead and your goals unreached.

    Ground troops are different from orbital troops in one principal respect: they are potential victims. It's possible to kill a ground trooper from the ground in Trek. It's impossible to kill an orbital trooper from the ground in Trek as far as we know.

    In order to control a planet, then, you might do wisely never to deploy any victims down there. Killing of your ground troops empowers the locals. Both in the scenario where they manage to kill one of yours to the loss of sixty million of theirs, and in the scenario where they kill one of yours and you aren't allowed to kill any of theirs.

    If you want destruction, by all means send in troops, and you are guaranteed a good fight. If you want obedience, use weapons of selective mass destruction (say, poisons that only kill all the male babies on the planet, or phasers only aimed at cities beginning with an L).

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  7. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2009
    Depends on the size of the force, and it's not uncommon in SpecOps as I understand it for the field commander of op to conduct the briefing on it in the RW, particularly if such operators are a small, elite part of a bigger whole (probably more common with SEALs than say Delta/Rangers for instance).

     
  8. SolarisOne

    SolarisOne Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Shouldn't people who don't like the thought of Starfleet being military love the idea of a Marine Corps? It keeps Starfleet's hands clean and set aside for all that exploration and science-y stuff, while allowing for the reality that the Federation must have a military in order to fend off invaders and the like.

    I mean, it's not like the Federation's suddenly going to start conquering worlds, just because it has a dedicated military arm. It's still the Federation, after all--just a more realistic one.
     
  9. J.T.B.

    J.T.B. Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2005
    That is kind of like the arrangement used in Robert Heinlein's Space Cadet (1948): The Interplanetary Patrol is all officers and officer-cadets, highly educated in science, who control the ships that explore and patrol the solar system (as well as a network of orbital nuclear bombs to keep Earth peaceful!). When needed, they give a ride to the Space Marines, a more traditional military fighting force. Roddenberry mentioned late in life that that book had been an influence, but the closest we saw to marines in the OS was the redshirt security force.
     
    SolarisOne and fireproof78 like this.
  10. Phaser Two

    Phaser Two Commodore Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2016
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    First, this is a great thread. I love the military elements of Star Trek.

    Second, that's outstanding dialogue from BOBW. I didn't remember it being that good.

    Third, Riker was heading off to play poker with the Borg threat looming? And it's interesting to think that the bolded line made it into the shoot. I bet that would have been left out today.
     
  11. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2009
    Given the familiarity that Riker had with Hanson, I sometimes wonder if he was supposed to be a returning Admiral Gregory Quinn (played by Ward Costello in "Coming of Age" and "Conspiracy", but was reworked as Hanson due to Costello being unable/unwilling to return?).
     
  12. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2016
    Location:
    Tenacity
    Still have the in-universe design of starship possessing multiple torpedo tubes and all those long strips of phaser emitters.
     
  13. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2016
    Location:
    Tenacity
    Marine (as with the fleet) would carry out the activities they were assigned to. If it were exploration, then that. They might do the long term stuff, while the fleet just does fast and curserary exploration.

    Maybe more like when the USAF was divided into SAC, TAC and MAC. With tacical handling things like fighters.

    Starbases by Starfleet, Marine bases by Marines.
     
  14. Longinus

    Longinus Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2008
    Starfleet does all that. There is no role for marines that is not already filled by redshirts.
    There are no marines.
     
    Vger23 likes this.
  15. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 10, 2005
    Location:
    Confederation of Earth
    1) We don't know that.
    2) Even so...Colonel West notwithstanding, there WILL be Starfleet Marines if a future episode writer feels like it.
     
  16. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2009
    Even within policing, there are "enhanced capacity" units that deliver different skill mixes than regular patrol officers (SWAT, K9, EOD...) and whether you can them "marines", "commandos", "Security Special Operations" or whatever (I'm personnally increasingly fond of equating Starfleet Ground Forces to a SEALs/Delta Force-GReen Berets hybrid) the training for a group designed to deploy in the field for ninety days and survivable for five months (the team on AR-558) is very different from the guard/patrol officer who gives to walk/ride a 'beat' and go home to his warm every night.
     
    Mr. Laser Beam likes this.
  17. Longinus

    Longinus Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2008
    There is no reason to assume they exist, as they're never mentioned.
    Of course.
     
  18. Longinus

    Longinus Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2008
    As I said ages ago in this thread, with the technology involved Starfleet would have little use for ground forces. Furthermore, we see Starfleet characters doing quite varied tasks within a department. Physicist and xenobiologist need different training too, yet they both are science department blueshirts. Even if some SF personnel had unusually extensive ground combat training, doesn't mean they wouldn't belong to the security department with the rest of the redshirts.
     
  19. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 10, 2005
    Location:
    Confederation of Earth
    One can just as easily say there's no reason to assume they DON'T exist...for the exact same reason.

    Yes, it's true that Starfleet Marines have never been mentioned onscreen. So they haven't been proven to exist. However they have also not been proven to NOT exist.

    So you take your side of the fence, and I'll take mine. And never the twain shall meet. :shrug:
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2018
    SolarisOne and fireproof78 like this.
  20. Longinus

    Longinus Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2008
    That's not how proof works.