Poll Do you consider Discovery to truly be in the Prime Timeline at this point?

[lawman]

I have a question, on topic. If DISCO isn't considered Prime, does that remove the issues many have, i.e. aesthetics, technology, the way Starfleet officers behave, etc?

Well, sure. The continuity issues, at least... as WebLurker points out, it wouldn't do anything to address complaints about the storytelling, redesigns, etc., on their own merits.

If it merged seamlessly into a universe that could fit and use all the TMP/TWK styles and just retconned TOS, would that solve any of the problems?

No, that would be annoying as fuck. (Speaking for myself, at least.) It would effectively be retconning TOS (alone) out of Star Trek continuity, hence essentially saying it's somehow less important and less worthy of respect than all the things that spun out of it. Complete tail-wagging-the-dog kind of situation.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I have a question, on topic. If DISCO isn't considered Prime, does that remove the issues many have, i.e. aesthetics, technology, the way Starfleet officers behave, etc?

Yes. That's how I watch the show, and how I enjoy it.

I can't imagine trying to enjoy the show while mentally rewriting everything else to fit. We're literally in a situation where anything seen or said has to have a fuckton of qualifiers added in order to fit. A character is seen using a holodeck? Oh it must be technically less advanced even though nothing shown indicates as much. Holographic emitters everywhere on the ship? Oh they're somehow less advanced than those seen in Voyager and couldn't handle the data load of the EMH's matrix which is why the Doctor was stranded in sickbay. Intra-ship beaming? Oh, the TOS Enterprise's transporters are an older model and Starfleet just never bothered upgrading them. What about the human-fusion Klingons from ENT and TOS? Oh, they're there, but just off-camera. Why are the Klingon ships different? Oh, the Klingons mothballed all their old ships, brought out new ships with the same names then went back to the old ships and designations 10 years later because reasons. Cloaking devices? Oh, Kirk and Spock are idiots and what they meant to say was that it was a newer generation of cloaking device and not that cloaking was theoretical until "Balance of Terror". Mirror Terrans are sensitive to bright light? They were all using Lorca's magic eye injections during "Mirror, Mirror". All 430 crew. Why was Mirror Spock respected when Terrans are horribly racist? They liked his goatee or something.

You even have to ignore the BTS materials (why Klingons are bald, that the new Enterprise is bigger etc) in order to make it work. You even have to work against the VFX and makeup people who are deliberately changing things at the behest of the producers and consider DSC it's own world.

I don't envy anyone trying to pretend Discovery is anything other than it's own version of Trek's world.

 

[Gonzo]

This is getting really personal. Maybe we need to back off?

These kinds of pointless discussions always end the same way.

Its why I don't bother with them and just pass them by as they just go round and round in circles.

As usual the original topic has been lost in the mists of time and the discussion has been twisted far beyond the original issue to try and score points on each other, some are more concerned with being right as if its some sort of victory.

Instead of appreciating what each side is trying to say they intentionally misunderstand each other or just use it as an excuse to publicly polish their halo of righteousness.

Its a gigantic waste of time, is just more work for the mods and will probably be deleted.

 

[Lord Garth]

Its a gigantic waste of time, is just more work for the mods and will probably be deleted.

I was a moderator here for a long time, a long time ago. The mods don't delete posts (unless in cases like where they have adult-content, illegal content, etc.). But infractions are issued to posters who go over the line (insulting other posters, flaming them, and what-not). We used to call them "warnings". Now they're "infractions". But the content isn't deleted.

Its why I don't bother with them and just pass them by as they just go round and round in circles.

As usual the original topic has been lost in the mists of time and the discussion has been twisted far beyond the original issue to try and score points on each other, some are more concerned with being right as if its some sort of victory.

Instead of appreciating what each side is trying to say they intentionally misunderstand each other or just use it as an excuse to publicly polish their halo of righteousness.

This is true, though.

 

[Ceridwen]

I can't imagine trying to enjoy the show while mentally rewriting everything else to fit. We're literally in a situation where anything seen or said has to have a fuckton of qualifiers added in order to fit.

It's been easy enough for me. Easier than making Star Trek or The Next Generation fit with themselves.

A character is seen using a holodeck? Oh it must be technically less advanced even though nothing shown indicates as much.

Well, except that everything shown indicates as much. Also The Animated Series established that ships of this era have holographic rec rooms; it's The Next Generation that was out of continuity in the first place to suggest otherwise.

Holographic emitters everywhere on the ship? Oh they're somehow less advanced than those seen in Voyager and couldn't handle the data load of the EMH's matrix which is why the Doctor was stranded in sickbay.

Your problem is using the word "hologram" to describe two very different pieces of technology. The technology in Discovery is a flickering projection of light. The Doctor is a solid projection of light and force fields and artificial intelligence, he has mass, he can interact with his environment, like... Please don't deliberately obfuscate the issue, you might enjoy the show more.

Intra-ship beaming? Oh, the TOS Enterprise's transporters are an older model and Starfleet just never bothered upgrading them.

Yeah, it's a break, oh well. How many moons does Vulcan have again?

What about the human-fusion Klingons from ENT and TOS? Oh, they're there, but just off-camera.

Same thing you already have to say about them in The Next Generation, Deep Space Nine, Voyager, the movies. Same thing you already have to say about the bumpy headed Klingons in Star Trek and The Animated Series.

Why are the Klingon ships different? Oh, the Klingons mothballed all their old ships, brought out new ships with the same names then went back to the old ships and designations 10 years later because reasons.

Another break. Just like it was when the D7 showed up in Enterprise. It happens, tragic, we should immolate ourselves.

Cloaking devices? Oh, Kirk and Spock are idiots and what they meant to say was that it was a newer generation of cloaking device and not that cloaking was theoretical until "Balance of Terror".

Which has been a break since Enterprise. And is a break again when they "discover" the cloaking device all over again in "The Enterprise Incident." I might have to jump out a window, I just can't deal with all these breaks.

Mirror Terrans are sensitive to bright light? They were all using Lorca's magic eye injections during "Mirror, Mirror". All 430 crew.

From "Mirror, Mirror":

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

Why was Mirror Spock respected when Terrans are horribly racist? They liked his goatee or something.

He wasn't respected, he was feared. He is also half-human. And Terrans being xenophobic was established in Enterprise, so why are you blaming the show that is trying to bridge the continuity issues that already exist?

I don't envy anyone trying to pretend Discovery is anything other than it's own version of Trek's world.

We're fine, it's the folks looking for reasons for it to not work that I worry about.

 

[Ovation]

Yes. That's how I watch the show, and how I enjoy it.

I can't imagine trying to enjoy the show while mentally rewriting everything else to fit. We're literally in a situation where anything seen or said has to have a fuckton of qualifiers added in order to fit. A character is seen using a holodeck? Oh it must be technically less advanced even though nothing shown indicates as much. Holographic emitters everywhere on the ship? Oh they're somehow less advanced than those seen in Voyager and couldn't handle the data load of the EMH's matrix which is why the Doctor was stranded in sickbay. Intra-ship beaming? Oh, the TOS Enterprise's transporters are an older model and Starfleet just never bothered upgrading them. What about the human-fusion Klingons from ENT and TOS? Oh, they're there, but just off-camera. Why are the Klingon ships different? Oh, the Klingons mothballed all their old ships, brought out new ships with the same names then went back to the old ships and designations 10 years later because reasons. Cloaking devices? Oh, Kirk and Spock are idiots and what they meant to say was that it was a newer generation of cloaking device and not that cloaking was theoretical until "Balance of Terror". Mirror Terrans are sensitive to bright light? They were all using Lorca's magic eye injections during "Mirror, Mirror". All 430 crew. Why was Mirror Spock respected when Terrans are horribly racist? They liked his goatee or something.

You even have to ignore the BTS materials (why Klingons are bald, that the new Enterprise is bigger etc) in order to make it work. You even have to work against the VFX and makeup people who are deliberately changing things at the behest of the producers and consider DSC it's own world.

I don't envy anyone trying to pretend Discovery is anything other than it's own version of Trek's world.

I guess my not caring about continuity beyond the broad strokes is a blessing then.

I don’t do mental gymnastics to make it all fit. I just watch what’s in front of me and ask myself—was I entertained? Yes? Then I’ll watch more. No? Got better things to do then. How does it all fit together? Don’t care. (I did, a long time ago. Can’t be bothered anymore.)

 

[fireproof78]

I don't envy anyone trying to pretend Discovery is anything other than it's own version of Trek's world.

It really isn't that hard.

No, that would be annoying as fuck. (Speaking for myself, at least.) It would effectively be retconning TOS (alone) out of Star Trek continuity, hence essentially saying it's somehow less important and less worthy of respect than all the things that spun out of it. Complete tail-wagging-the-dog kind of situation.

Not exactly, but I can see the point as well. I just don't agree.

 

[WebLurker]

If it merged seamlessly into a universe that could fit and use all the TMP/TWK styles and just retconned TOS, would that solve any of the problems?

Absolutely not.

 

[jaime]

Absolutely not.

I dunno....call it my nefarious side but...better yet my Sisko side...I could live with that...

 

[WebLurker]

I dunno....call it my nefarious side but...better yet my Sisko side...I could live with that...

Fair enough if you can.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

If it merged seamlessly into a universe that could fit and use all the TMP/TWK styles and just retconned TOS, would that solve any of the problems?

Pretty much, considering I already spent most of my childhood thinking TMP/TWOK was a retcon for TOS until I discovered the internet and learned this was a minority opinion.

 

[jaime]

Fair enough if you can.

Computer. Delete log.

 

[Refuge]

I have a question, on topic. If DISCO isn't considered Prime, does that remove the issues many have, i.e. aesthetics, technology, the way Starfleet officers behave, etc?

My reckoning is that it is officially Prime Universe - there is no getting away from that. It has stepped into a specific timeline and trajectory incorporating existing story expectations and referencing known characters. It is using current production values and in part sensibilities of the (our) day. Example, I don't really have an issue if a character is wearing a uniform made of a certain fabric that we make now. The design?? I might whinge about. If Tilly wears her hair in a pony tail and not one of those amazing 1960'd beehives with plaits adorning the style - that's okay too. I have come to accept Spock has a sister. You know even the Enterprise is 'close enough' for my surface watch. However, I will never be talked around accepting those Klingons. Fail. The souped up technology looks more post Voyager than pre-Original Series too. It no fit.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

ENT didn't hit it's stride until Season 3, nor did TNG and DS9. VOY didn't achieve true greatness until Seven came onboard.

We can only hope that most of the problems of the show were freshman year bugs.

Hey! Let's not act reasonable here. We're supposed to outright condemn the show and not give it the chance to improve itself! Didn't you get the memo?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

However, I will never be talked around accepting those Klingons. Fail. The souped up technology looks more post Voyager than pre-Original Series too. It no fit.

I like the increased diversity in the Klingon designs, if only the new ships could be shown alongside the ones we've already seen. It always seemed incredibly wrong to me that the Federation has like 50 different starship classes while the Klingons have like 4 of them and 2 are at least a hundred years old.

The Klingon makeup is suboptimal and I agree with EVERYONE who says they would look better with hair. But the costumes are awesome; there's a lot more variation in their armor and uniform styles than anyone actually gives them credit for and I really enjoy picking out the subtleties.

I DO NOT care for their weapon designs, though. The Discovery Bat'leth looks like it was extruded from one of Voq's kidneys and then sharpened on both ends with a paring knife.

 

[Refuge]

It always seemed incredibly wrong to me that the Federation has like 50 different starship classes while the Klingons have like 4 of them and 2 are at least a hundred years old.

That's kind of a good point

 

[fireproof78]

Fair enough if you can.

Is it really that difficulty?

Hey! Let's not act reasonable here. We're supposed to outright condemn the show and not give it the chance to improve itself! Didn't you get the memo?

Oh, right, I hate STD now!!!!!!!

Oh, wait

 

[WebLurker]

Is it really that difficulty?

Understatement of the century. TOS is the primary foundation of the prime universe. Everything else builds off of it or to it. It's arguably Star Trek in its purest form. It's a respect thing, and a internal continuity thing.

 

[F. King Daniel]

It's been easy enough for me. Easier than making Star Trek or The Next Generation fit with themselves.

Well, except that everything shown indicates as much. Also The Animated Series established that ships of this era have holographic rec rooms; it's The Next Generation that was out of continuity in the first place to suggest otherwise.

TAS is around 15 years after Discovery.

Your problem is using the word "hologram" to describe two very different pieces of technology. The technology in Discovery is a flickering projection of light. The Doctor is a solid projection of light and force fields and artificial intelligence, he has mass, he can interact with his environment, like... Please don't deliberately obfuscate the issue, you might enjoy the show more.

Interact with his environment like the Sarek hologram did? There you go, ignoring what you see to fit your head-canon rationalisations.

Yeah, it's a break, oh well. How many moons does Vulcan have again?

Many, in DSC. Many in TMP. None in TMP-DE and ENT. Almost like they're not all in continuity with each other, which is exactly my point.

Same thing you already have to say about them in The Next Generation, Deep Space Nine, Voyager, the movies. Same thing you already have to say about the bumpy headed Klingons in Star Trek and The Animated Series.

Another break. Just like it was when the D7 showed up in Enterprise. It happens, tragic, we should immolate ourselves.

Never was anything wrong with the D7 in ENT. It was already in use for over 100 years in TNG, so why not make it 200?

At least they didn't take a completely different design, call it the D7 and pretend everything was the same as before.

From "Mirror, Mirror":

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

One fullbright ISS Enterprise bridge.

He wasn't respected, he was feared. He is also half-human. And Terrans being xenophobic was established in Enterprise, so why are you blaming the show that is trying to bridge the continuity issues that already exist?

A lot can change in a century. But Discovery takes that continuity error and brings it just 10 years prior to TOS.

We're fine, it's the folks looking for reasons for it to not work that I worry about.

You haven't addressed the fact that you're headcannoning stuff which the producers and artists are deliberately changing and are on record saying they consider DSC it's own world. Discovery makes another huge change and you're like, "Star Trek has always been at war with Eastasia". Isn't that doing a disservice to Trek's original creators and their intents versus what the DSC people are doing?

As part of the same world, TOS is overwritten and changed, but as seperate entities in their own worlds both can stand tall and be enjoyed on their own merits.

 

[cooleddie74]

Hey! Let's not act reasonable here. We're supposed to outright condemn the show and not give it the chance to improve itself! Didn't you get the memo?

Get it? I visually rebooted it to have elongated paper and jumbled, mangled words.