"Don't worry, the novelverse will fix this!"
Spoilers Alan Van Sprang officially joins Season 2 as...
- Thread starter Dijeirusan
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Amaris
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Yeah, I see that a lot, too.
I think people forget the attempted assassination on Chancellor Azetbur at Khitomer, along with Starfleet's willingness to move in and extradite Kirk and McCoy while "cleaning the chronometers" of the Klingons who stood in their way, and was only stopped by the Federation President. Let's also not forget the Federation's original plan to destroy all of the Borg. What about when Kirk and Spock were assigned to stealing a cloaking device by traipsing over the Neutral Zone in The Enterprise Incident? These are not inconsequential things, and the Federation has been involved in them. There's more, but this is just a sampling.
I've only seen one of those and as i mentioned earlier, I don't recognise his current appearance from The Tudors when knowing the connection. He looks very different with the hair and beard. Certainly not 'instantly recognisable' to me, and the name I'd definitely never heard.
Incidentally, this is the second Tudors alumnus to get a major role.
Section 31.
Colonel "section 31" West. Clearly an imposter, what's a Colonel doing in Starfleet?
Geordi and Data? Section 31. Check the novels.
Hate to break it to you but... *Whispers* section 31.
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Amaris
Guest
[urge to kill rising]
I'm sure it is. Especially when it's TRUE.
Now don't mistake my meaning, I'm certainly not insisting that the Federation is perfect, or anything like that. But I'm also not quite ready to condemn the entire Federation government just because Section 31 exists.
Because some times there really ARE lone wolves, rogues, or whatever you want to call them. It's not the Federation's fault that there is such a thing as Section 31. One cannot blame the Federation for everything that Section 31 does.
If the Federation can be accused of using Section 31 as an excuse for anything it wants to do, then the reverse also applies: S31 can also use the Federation as an excuse for whatever IT wants (i.e. "Oh, we can do whatever we feel like, because the Federation would have authorized it anyway").
In the end, I genuinely believe that the Federation as a whole is trying to do the right thing, I think their heart is in the right place, and I'm sure that most Federation officials don't like Section 31 any more than we do.
Section 31 is evil, yes, and I think we can all agree on that. But the Federation is not.
Not in season2, it’s going to be a lighter show.
I doubt Discovery is going to make them the good guys.
Do you have a newsletter I can subscribe to? I'm starting to believe that Section 31 might be behind the appearance of Section 31 in DSC.
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Amaris
Guest
So if you hire out a guy to steal something from your neighbor, plant evidence on them, and cause them to lose your job, you're still the good guy because you didn't do the deed? Section 31 is still sanctioned by the Federation.
We'll see.
That remains to be seen.
We’ve seen more Federation officials fighting against Section 31 than for it.
Just because we’ve seen maybe ONE admiral (Ross) take their side, does not in any way mean that the entire Federation government supports it.
Indeed, you'll recall that Section 31 conspired to assassinate one Federation president (Ra-ghoratreii from ST VI) and had a spy in the Cabinet of another one (Jaresh-Inyo from DS9). Now why would they need to do that, if the whole Federation government supposedly supports them?
And think of all the heroic Starfleet captains we've seen. Archer, Georgiou (the non-Mirror version), Saru, Pike, Kirk, Picard, Sisko, Janeway...you think they all supported Section 31? Hardly.
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There's no disease in the Federation?
Were you thinking of Star Trek: Into Darkness? Section 31 wasn't in The Undiscovered Country.
KIRK: But you have the ryetalyn that we need! If necessary, we'll take it ... if anything happens to us, four deaths and then my crew comes down and takes that ryetalyn.
Okay, then why should we believe any of the dialog starting from the first lines in The Cage?
Who says that the Ba'Ku have been on that planet for centuries, in a movie (according to you) filled with lies they could have a arrived a few decades in the past, long after the Federation claimed that area of space.
They have ever reason to lie in order to get Picard and his crew to fight their battles for them.
Maybe it was Admiral Janeway's private idea to send the Enterprise to Romulas in NEM, the Federation Council knew nothing of her actions ... you know, because everybody's lying. This would be consistent with the Janeway's maverick style
The Admiral has no connection to section 31, he was a Starfleet officer carrying out Federation Council orders. Just as we've seen Starfleet officers carry out Federation Council instructions many times.
If anyone, it's Picard who's the renegade.
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Section 31 wasn’t in ST6
No it isn’t.
Nothing there implied section 31.
Lorca acting like that was because he was from the mirror Universe, and we didn’t know what the black badges meant until now. Section 31 has never had badges before, so there was no reason so suspect that.
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I don't think Trek ever portrayed Section 31 as being "heroes". They're very self aware of what they're doing and how others would perceive them. The way they see it is that they're sparing the good people of the Federation like Julian Bashir of having to break their own principles. Sloan may try to justify his organization's actions, but he doesn't necessarily glorify them. This is a similar thing touched on the Voyager episode "Prime Factors" where we see Tuvok commit an unethical decision he knew Janeway could never cross. Granted, it's not about genocide, but is about one willing to commit an unlawful act in order to spare the captain from that and achieve the ship's main goal. The ready room scene between them at the end is easily one of my favorite Trek moments. It makes me wish Voyager had made more use of Tuvok, especially the dynamic between him and Janeway.
JANEWAY: I don't even know where to start. I want you to explain to me how you, of all people, could be involved in this.
TUVOK: It is quite simple, Captain. You have made it clear on many occasions that your highest goal for the crew is to get them home. But in this instance, your standards would not allow you to violate Sikarian law. Someone had to spare you the ethical dilemma. I was the logical choice, and so I chose to act.
JANEWAY: You did it for me because you knew I couldn't.
TUVOK: I accept the consequences of my actions. I expect to loose my commission and to be court-martialled when we return to Federation space.
JANEWAY: You are one of my most valued officers and you are my friend. It is vital that you understand me here. I need you, but I also need to know that I can count on you. You are my counsel, the one I turn to when I need my moral compass checked. We have forged this relationship for years and I depend on it. I realize you made a sacrifice for me, but it's not one I would have allowed you to make. You can use logic to justify almost anything. That's it's power, and it's flaw. From now on, bring your logic to me. Don't act on it behind my back.
TUVOK: You have my word. My logic was not in error, but I was.
Don't get too attached to this character.
I will lay odds that he will be made into a straight-up villain and killed off unceremoniously like Lorca in a matter of episodes.
And Michelle Yeoh will probably kill him, predictably.
I will lay odds that he will be made into a straight-up villain and killed off unceremoniously like Lorca in a matter of episodes.
And Michelle Yeoh will probably kill him, predictably.
universal and free health
Sounds good to me.
Section 31 controls this entire website.
Fair warning.
Fair warning.
They're very much in the mold of the Operative from Serenity, who was equally self-aware of his own terrible nature but (erroneously) felt it was justified in service of what he believed to be the greater good.
The Operative: I'm sorry. If your quarry goes to ground, leave no ground to go to. You should have taken my offer. Or did you think none of this was your fault?
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: I don't murder children.
The Operative: I do. If I have to.
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: Why? Do you even know why they sent you?
The Operative: It's not my place to ask. I believe in something greater than myself. A better world. A world without sin.
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: So me and mine gotta lay down and die... so you can live in your better world?
The Operative: I'm not going to live there. There's no place for me there... any more than there is for you. Malcolm... I'm a monster. What I do is evil. I have no illusions about it, but it must be done.
ETA: I just noticed that fireproof referenced the Operative above too. That'll teach me to jump into the end of a thread without scrolling all the way up.
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