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Spoilers Alan Van Sprang officially joins Season 2 as...

Last I checked fireman salary is around $80k in Bay Area on average (or sometimes over $200k).
So one of the wealthier regions of the US pays its fire brigade well? Cool. None the less, a lot of firefighters do it completely for free. Now they're countless reasons as to why they do this, just like there are countless reasons why someone might join Starfleet - like, oh I don't know, getting to explore the universe? But that's really not the point. I'm just demonstrating that the old 'incentive to work' argument is as reductive as "in the future people just work to work and do what they want to do because they can."

People don't have to work in the Federation. That's what the whole post-scarcity/utopian thing is about. They live to work, rather than working to live, as the saying goes: they do whatever they take a liking to and have the talent for, whether it's cooking food for people or tending heirloom grapevines or exploring the frontiers of outer space or fill-in-the-blank. They're free to choose based on intrinsic motivations, rather than extrinsic ones, as CorporalClegg's example illustrates.
And yet the problem here is it completely ignores the smaller bits of the equation. Now I wanted to avoid going down the "the economics of the future" rabbit hole, but I guess that's unavoidable. And since I already mentioned clams, we're going to talk about clams.

We saw Ben's out back scrubbing (presumably to be followed by shucking) a big bucket full of clams. This is a lot of work. I know; I've done it. Why would he bother doing this? Well, it's pretty evident in the context of the scene he finds it relaxing. His BFF just died and it was something to focus his mind. But that's pretty extreme circumstances. What about all the other days? Or when Ben isn't around - who does Joe pass the work off to then? Not only that, Ben seemed to have a pretty practiced hand at it; he's probably been doing it all his life. But if the future's domestic politics are anything like they are now, I'm sure 14-year-old Benji wasn't nearly as keen on the idea. I can imagine him transporting into the living room after a long day of 9th-grade busy work and just wanting to sit at his desk and put together his Stargazer-class model. But Joe has to have his scrubbed clams. Authenticity, you know.

But now comes the next question: where is the (pretense of) authenticity line drawn? Why not just replicated the clams pre-scrubbed? Or pre-cooked? And so on and so forth. But - ethical issues aside - maybe the clams are real and have been fished and suddenly we're into the realm of scarcity. Uh oh. And with that, suddenly there's a market for fresh real clams over pre-replicated ones.

Of course, Riker told us they don't do that anymore. So then there's that whole authenticity thing. But maybe the real reason people show up at Joe's is that he's the best creole around. But, there again, his culinary aptitude is the resource and has market value. So there needs to be some way to "gate" (for lack of a better term) it.

I mean in a world where there are no limitations on travel and is no language barrier, a guy who lives on Bourbon Street and a woman in Tokyo who both have equal claim to the clams. Come dinner hour, the line outside of Joe's might get pretty fricken long if everything is "free."

And you can apply this same onion peel approach to just about anything from cooking, to building, to power distribution. There are just too many practicality cogs and too many logistical hiccups for no money/post-scarcity to ever be a thing.
 
On the whole, we didn't.
To be accurate, for the most part it doesn't get mentioned one way or the other. There are lot's of little pieces of dialog about commerce and money in the 24th century, compare to only a few overt declarations as to it's absence.

Why would Quark need to buy passage from Earth (center of the Federation) back to DS9, if such passage is free?

Why would a entertainer on a Federation planet be soliciting tips?

Why would Picard be openly surprised when Vico told Picard that he was unemployed?
None the less, a lot of firefighters do it completely for free.
And how many of those same firefighters have regular jobs to support themselves, while volunteering on the side?
 
So what exactly is the reason to go on a ship and be blown away by enemy of week in Starfleet, if money is not a thing to worry about?
You've gotta be kidding, right? Just ask Star Trek fans: if the whole thing were real and Starfleet actually existed, how many people would sign up tomorrow?

It works great as long as someone's motivation in life is waste extraction. The problem comes when people don't want to do certain jobs - how do you offer an inventive when there's no additional reward, and they could live perfectly well not doing it.
A legitimate issue, of course. But we're talking about a society with a tech level where most of those jobs simply don't require human labor any more. Waste extraction, for instance... I'd imagine most waste products (human, industrial, whatever) are just tossed into a hopper that decomposes them down to their constituent molecules, where they're available for later use by replicators that reconstitute them into other forms of matter. (And as a bonus, no more problems with pollution!)

With a little effort, of course, one can think of tasks that both (A) are undesirable, and (B) require human labor. In such cases, I'd expect that the trade-off is that people who devote some of their time to doing them have higher-priority access to the relatively few things left in society that are relatively scarce... say, real estate with a nice view. (Although even there, the availability of instant travel by teleportation would put less of a premium on such things... but there are bound to be some possibilities. Easier access to a table at the restaurants that still cook by hand, maybe?...) The basic point is that, in contrast to modern society, people who do crappy jobs (the kind that aren't their own reward) get rewarded more in exchange for their labor rather than less. Certainly some people would take that deal.

...Plus inspire innovation and creativity without the competitive drive of money making.
I don't quite follow you here, but then I've never found competition to be particularly motivating, especially for creative activity. I recognize that some people do, though; presumably such people would direct their energies into activities where the competitive aspect is intrinsic — sports and games, for instance.

I've always maintained that the writers in 21st century America lack the language and reference points to describe a post scarcity economy, because we've never seen one to base it on. Plus there is a need to make it accessible to an audience familiar with transactional economic interactions, trading, buying and selling. So the economics of Star Trek become a handwave, and in themselves a kind of advanced magic you don't think too hard about.
Yeah, no argument here. There are people who spend a lot of time thinking about these things, but that's not the job of TV writers. As I said earlier, the show is not a thesis on sociology or economics; this is background stuff.

(Although among Trek fans, surely a lot of us have spent time reading utopian fiction and alternative economic theories and such, no?...)

But now comes the next question: where is the (pretense of) authenticity line drawn? Why not just replicated the clams pre-scrubbed? Or pre-cooked? And so on and so forth. But - ethical issues aside - maybe the clams are real and have been fished and suddenly we're into the realm of scarcity. Uh oh. And with that, suddenly there's a market for fresh real clams over pre-replicated ones.

Of course, Riker told us they don't do that anymore. So then there's that whole authenticity thing. But maybe the real reason people show up at Joe's is that he's the best creole around. But, there again, his culinary aptitude is the resource and has market value. So there needs to be some way to "gate" (for lack of a better term) it.

I mean in a world where there are no limitations on travel and is no language barrier, a guy who lives on Bourbon Street and a woman in Tokyo who both have equal claim to the clams. Come dinner hour, the line outside of Joe's might get pretty fricken long if everything is "free."
If no one is motivated to do the work any more, then the restaurant closes. Easy-peasy. It's worth keeping in mind that no one actually needs a restaurant offering hand-scrubbed, hand-cooked food, certainly not in a society where an incredible variety of food is available instantly for free. It's a novelty thing... but if someone's interested in offering it, presumably some people will be interested in patronizing it.

And if there's too much demand to patronize it... well, see above re: crappy jobs. Also note that even today, even very popular restaurants get by just fine on a first-come, first-served basis; access is self-regulated by people's level of patience for waiting for a table, which really has nothing to do with how they pay for the meal in the end.

There are legitimate complicating issues here that you're touching on, of course. However, we don't necessarily need to frame them in terms of "markets." We should always keep in mind that (outside the dream worlds of Austrian economists) markets are not some emergent property of nature. They're always the product of some kind of social contract (which is to say, government); they are brought into being and sustained by it, and take a shape constrained by it. As a general rule, I consider markets to be effective mechanisms for mediating the distribution of fungible private goods with high elasticity of demand... but not particularly good for much else, and often self-subverting or downright inimical to more important societal goals.

There are just too many practicality cogs and too many logistical hiccups for no money/post-scarcity to ever be a thing.
See, here's where we disagree. Four hundred years ago, people might well have said the same thing about popular democracy and protected civil liberties... these were concepts only those ivory-tower enlightenment philosophers could take seriously, nothing that would never work in the real world!... but look, here we are today.
 
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You've gotta be kidding, right? Just ask Star Trek fans: if the whole thing were real and Starfleet actually existed, how many people would sign up tomorrow?

My point was not about the "fun and adventures", ideal Starfleet where you travel the cosmos and see the universe without any dangers. It was about Starfleet as depicted in virtually all of Star Trek: first, last and only line of defense against all kinds of threats of Federation. Now, may be there is great honor to serve and die in Starfleet and some may value it, but if anything, that mentality is closer to Klingons than humans. Human(oids) as depicted who are part of Starfleet/Federation are not in a huge hurry to die. So I don't know, if our current society was suddenly transported into late 24th century with all the perks of post-scarcity Earth, I BET very few would immediately sign up to serve in Starfleet, the most dangerous job you can have in Federation. Give me a decade or two in Bora Bora (or moons of Andoria equivalent) to enjoy my new life of not worrying about anything and THEN let's talk about what I can do to help Federation out.
 
I don't quite follow you here, but then I've never found competition to be particularly motivating, especially for creative activity. I recognize that some people are, though; presumably such people would direct their energies into activities where the competitive aspect is intrinsic — sports and games, for instance.
I have, with friends who are VFX artists, writers, and photographers. They are driven to compete in the market of ideas with their work.
(Although among Trek fans, surely a lot of us have spent time reading utopian fiction and alternative economic theories and such, no?...)
No.
 
It works great as long as someone's motivation in life is waste extraction. The problem comes when people don't want to do certain jobs - how do you offer an inventive when there's no additional reward, and they could live perfectly well not doing it. There'll always be someone who wants to be a hero even for free - there are volunteer emergency services the world over. But you've got to find someone to do mundane, dirty and boring jobs too. Plus inspire innovation and creativity without the competitive drive of money making.

I've always maintained that the writers in 21st century America lack the language and reference points to describe a post scarcity economy, because we've never seen one to base it on. Plus there is a need to make it accessible to an audience familiar with transactional economic interactions, trading, buying and selling. So the economics of Star Trek become a handwave, and in themselves a kind of advanced magic you don't think too hard about.

Have you seen Star Trek's holograms?
The answer is: Some form of A.I. Probably robots. Not the ones like Data ("true" A.I.), but Isaac Asimov-ian. That can walk. Talk. And do waste extraction.

Asuming the future of Trek has infinite ressources for technology - not too far fetched, when asteroid mining gives infinite access to rare Earths - and sufficiently advanced A.I., like a "super" alexa or Siri, that can walk and talk (like Star Treks hologram A.I.) - at that point we can produce an infinite amount of (somewhat) intelligent robots that can do ALL "lower" work. In fact, with them filling in all producing, farming and amintenance jobs, there already would be a 100% functional society. Humans then would do only "ccreative" jobs - improving the systems, arts, science, exploration.....

But as a matter of fact: The post-scarcitiy aspect of Star Trek is actually the most realistic one. At least far more than FTL-travel or aliens. In fact, should humans ever be able to fly faster than light, the point of post-scarcity will already have been crossed.

The only problems are sociological: There is an entire, somewhat stagnant civilisation, that can feed and care for it's entire human population, without any human ever doing any job. THAT'S the part - what humans DO all day - are we all explorers? Artists? Do some (most?) opt to sometimes switch out and do the "machine's" work themselves for a day or two?

We don't know. And Star Trek is an entertainment show, it really doesn't need to find solutions for this and explain those things in detail. In fact, in broad strokes it even already does sometimes. But nevertheless, it's actually surprisingly GREAT that Star Trek took the 'realistic' (but way more inconcievable for us) notion that a multi-planets FTL civilisation also is a post-scarcity society, and put that in as a narrative backdrop.

Really, I fault them not for providing the exact details on how the future will look. The simple fact they DID incorporate the thought at all shows what magnitude of science-fciction geniuses the original creators of Star Trek actually were!
 
I must say, the constant whining of the nerds/wonkers/traditional trekkies on here makes me tend to like anything that will tick them off.

This from someone who HATES the Abrams movies for lazily creating a new timeline so the writers can be free of cannon & consistency. . . and then does Wrath of Khan.
 
The whole friggin' show was new territory on many levels. How can someone be THAT blind.

First serialized Trek from the get go. First Trek with main character not the captain. Main character committs mutiny in first episode. Captain killed in first episode. Spore drive (which is novel AND based in real science). First openly gay relationship on Trek. First exploration of Klingon war. Virtually no briefing room scenes.

And we get complaints about fanwank? Or not explaining about Klingon? Remind me, when did TNG explain about them?
 
Look, we have Sec 31 established firmly in Trek cannon. Like it or not. As is the tradition of less morally upright segments of the Federation back to Undiscovered Country. We have the unexplained black badges from early on.

If this is the vehicle to get us more Michelle Yeoh, I am fine with it.
 
I must say, the constant whining of the nerds/wonkers/traditional trekkies on here makes me tend to like anything that will tick them off.

This from someone who HATES the Abrams movies for lazily creating a new timeline so the writers can be free of cannon & consistency. . . and then does Wrath of Khan.
Not to be pedantic or off topic but just because a film has Khan isn't doesn't mean it was "Wrath of Khan."
And we get complaints about fanwank? Or not explaining about Klingon? Remind me, when did TNG explain about them?
Klingons didn't get an explanation in any of the shows that are considered "the best" of Star Trek. They simply were.
 
Maybe the foment-a-war plot in STID (and the social commentary they were allegedly attempting with it) would've gotten a little more attention if they'd left Cumberbatch playing a new character (as originally written) and hadn't turned him into Khan, and then doubled down by doing the main-character-must-die-repairing-the-ship's-engines bit, which was way too on the nose.
 
I must say, the constant whining of the nerds/wonkers/traditional trekkies on here makes me tend to like anything that will tick them off.

This from someone who HATES the Abrams movies for lazily creating a new timeline so the writers can be free of cannon & consistency. . . and then does Wrath of Khan.

The whole friggin' show was new territory on many levels. How can someone be THAT blind.

First serialized Trek from the get go. First Trek with main character not the captain. Main character committs mutiny in first episode. Captain killed in first episode. Spore drive (which is novel AND based in real science). First openly gay relationship on Trek. First exploration of Klingon war. Virtually no briefing room scenes.

And we get complaints about fanwank? Or not explaining about Klingon? Remind me, when did TNG explain about them?

Look, we have Sec 31 established firmly in Trek cannon. Like it or not. As is the tradition of less morally upright segments of the Federation back to Undiscovered Country. We have the unexplained black badges from early on.

If this is the vehicle to get us more Michelle Yeoh, I am fine with it.

I don't mind the Kelvin films overall but, other than that, you just summed up everything I think, word-for-word, down to the last dotted "i" and crossed "t".
 
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Maybe the foment-a-war plot in STID (and the social commentary they were allegedly attempting with it) would've gotten a little more attention if they'd left Cumberbatch playing a new character (as originally written) and hadn't turned him into Khan, and then doubled down by doing the main-character-must-die-repairing-the-ship's-engines bit, which was way too on the nose.
So, if John Harrison remains Harrison that movie fine?
 
Should have made Harrison one of Khan's ship mates. Maybe Khan died this time around, or they couldn't safely revive him.
 
No one cares about one of Khan's shipmates.

*ETA The only "mistakes" one could make was trying to hide it (but even then, it wasn't as bad as Spectre.) and not casting an Indian actor. And, no, the "well the old one wasn't Indian either" argument doesn't hold any water. None the less, Cumby is Cumby.

In the end, Lindelof was kind of spot on in his instance that they used Khan as the Trek 2 villain.
 
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