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Was ST:III Transwarp as fast as TNG/VOY Transwarp?

Tribble puncher

Captain
Captain
They never really specify what Transwarp is in ST:III, you know it's obviously faster than regular warp, but how much faster? I know there is a TOS warp scale and a TNG warp scale, did what they call Transwarp in ST:III basically just become drives that could achieve TNG level warp speeds? Or was it meant to be something on the level of what the Borg were seen using in Voyager?
 
I think most people go with the theory that Transwarp failed but some think the warp scale was changed after to reflect the new warp speeds. I personally go with the second theory as I just don't believe Starfleet would build the Excelsior class with the engines unless they knew it would work. We saw in Enterprise that they tested a smaller warp engine before they built the NX-01 which makes sense and I can't believe they would do that, maybe they didn't get the exact results they wanted from them but I can't go along with the theory that it failed. There's also the fact that the outside of Excelsior's engines didn't change in appearance in Star Trek 6.

I'm not sure you'll get any one answer to this Question.
 
It would seem natural to call every advance in warp engineering "transwarp", until it either succeeds or fails. Tellingly, our heroes call the Borg drive "transwarp" long before they hear the Borg opinion on the matter - and they use the word for a tunneling drive, which probably wasn't what the Excelsior was supposed to do, again suggesting a degree of generality.

How fast could the Excelsior go? Probably not infinitely fast, despite the computer promising "all speeds available" - Styles still spoke in conventional terms of speed records. But said records would have to trump the warp 14.1 the Enterprise did at the very least. And of course the ship would have to be able to overtake the refitted hero ship... Which, amusingly enough, never was stated to have done better than warp 7.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I tend to agree with Timo here, the Excelsior's transwarp was an improved version of conventional warp technology and probably did in fact succeed. The assumption it "failed" seems to be based on the events of the film but I can't for the life of me imagine Starfleet would have abandoned the whole project because Scotty sabotaged the Excelsior's drive.

In fact the line "all speeds available" pretty much precludes the sort of instantaneous travel we associate with some versions of the Borg's transwarp.
 
I'm not sure about the "call every advance in engineering transwarp" idea. A Bugatti Veyron still has an internal combustion engine, even if it's a lot faster than VW Beetle. The Enterprise-D's warp drive uses the same principles as Cochrane's test ship.

True transwarp should - to be worth the name - exploit principles that are novel - hypersonic jet engines needed new ideas and developments over previous designs. Quantum slipstream drive, folded space propulsion, wormhole drive (or transwarp conduits, which are essentially the same) are all candidates.

The Excelsior might have relied on a new warp field algorithm, but the "transwarp" moniker is simple PR from the grant writers/design team.
 
Transwarp is great! It's so much faster than regular warp!

It's much, much slower than that instant travel anywhere in the multiverse spore drive Starfleet had decades before but nobody talks about that even though it's he same continuity. Honest.
 
I remember back in the pre-TNG days, there was a fan idea floated about that transwarp produced speeds up to warp 16 or even warp 20 on the TOS scale. It still would have validated Styles' boast that the Enterprise would (normally) not be able to outrun the Excelsior by any degree.
 
I agree 100% with @Timo and @Spot261 here, I always saw the Excelsior transwarp as a success that lead to the new warp scale. It is transwarp because it'll leave everything that came before in the dust, not because of a particularly technology.
 
How fast could the Excelsior go? Probably not infinitely fast, despite the computer promising "all speeds available" - Styles still spoke in conventional terms of speed records. But said records would have to trump the warp 14.1 the Enterprise did at the very least. And of course the ship would have to be able to overtake the refitted hero ship... Which, amusingly enough, never was stated to have done better than warp 7.

Timo Saloniemi
So perhaps the recallibration of the warp scale coincided with the launch of the refit Enterprise with her own completely redesigned (and rather unstable) warp drive?

The way they talk about it on the Excelsior, it's not a replacement for warp, but an addition. It sounds like a turbocharger or a booster - "Prepare for warp speed, stand by transwarp drive". You need to go to warp before the transwarp part kicks in.

The Enterprise's engine imbalance created some kind of wormhole. Maybe the Excelsior was an attempt to create these on purpose, and harness them for travel? This would look a lot more like the Borg conception of "transwarp". Scotty also mentions a "Transwarp computer drive", not a "transwarp drive computer". Maybe it's the computer that's the key - some kind of super powerful computer necessary to make the calculations required to create stable wormholes and direct their course?
 
A Bugatti Veyron still has an internal combustion engine, even if it's a lot faster than VW Beetle.

...A case very much in point: the designers of automobiles are always inventing new names for what is essentially the same old thing, either incrementally improved, or then actually downgraded with the hope that nobody notices.

True transwarp should - to be worth the name - exploit principles that are novel - hypersonic jet engines needed new ideas and developments over previous designs.

Well, not really. "Hypersonics" is defined by the speed the design attains, and places no demands on the design beyond that. Ancient Chinese rocketry would fit the bill at suitably impressive scale, or then somebody may come up with a hyperventilating frammistat for the same application.

Similarly, you may get a "hyperspectral" sensor by inventing an all-new way to combine diffractive optics and RF antennas on a chip, or then by duct-taping a night sight and a directional mic onto your old binoculars.

In that sense, "transwarp" should very much be a goal, to be attained by arbitrary means.

The Excelsior might have relied on a new warp field algorithm, but the "transwarp" moniker is simple PR from the grant writers/design team.

Most things are ITRW. Hard to tell whether inventing a new name is appropriate in this case or not. For all we know, "transwarp" was the thing suggested in SJ:s manual, combining transporter tech with warp tech - or then the name of the manufacturer of the ship's perfectly regular but really big warp drive. "She's supposed to have a Ferrari engine!" "Yeah, and if my gramps had wheels... Umm, apart from his Ferrari, that is."

Timo Saloniemi
 
I subscribe to the idea that it was simply a faster warp engine than previously available, and it was perhaps the catalyst for the recalibration of the warp scale seen in TNG.

The idea that the Excelsior's engines failed never really made sense to me. Why would the first activation of experimental engines be performed in a unplanned pursuit, in a fully manned starship, from Earth orbit? It would be like the first firing of a rocket motor taking place integrated into a full sized rocket, and with a manned capsule sitting on top of the stack. It wouldn't happen; there would be numerous other tests before the engines would be installed on a crewed starship, and if the engine was a complete dud it wouldn't get to that stage.

I could imagine the performance levels perhaps not reaching the levels hoped for but still being superior to existing designs.
 
Sometime, less than eighteen years prior to "The Cage," the "time barrier" has been broken. Whatever that means. Also Pike calls for "time warp, factor seven." So the "time warp" of the 2240-2250's is the "warp" of the 2260's onward. Having Excelsior's "transwarp" be the "warp" of TNG would not be unusual. More evidence of this is the change in the nacelle style from the Excelsior onwards. The Excelsior had large blue glowy grills. This new style of nacelles were later capped off with bussards on the Enterprise C and going forward.

So we have four levels of warp development:
-Zefram Cochrane's warp
-Time warp
-Excelsior Transwarp
-Voyager's Borg Transwarp or whatever
 
More evidence of this is the change in the nacelle style from the Excelsior onwards. The Excelsior had large blue glowy grills. This new style of nacelles were later capped off with bussards on the Enterprise C and going forward.

The TMP Enterprise had blue glowy grills. The Excelsior didn't - until Greg Jein built a new model for Flashback, which subsequently was the basis for the CGI model used on Deep Space Nine.
 
The TMP Enterprise had blue glowy grills. The Excelsior didn't - until Greg Jein built a new model for Flashback, which subsequently was the basis for the CGI model used on Deep Space Nine.

Hmm. Not seeing any blue grills on the Enterprise. But I didn't notice that the Excelsior didn't have them either. In any case there is a distinct difference between the nacelle style of the movie era and the Enterprise-C suggesting some sort of advancement. Maybe there was another speed revolution that happened between the Excelsior and the Enterprise-C era.
 
I don't think ILM bothered, but they did glow at warp in TMP. I can't really look for screencaps right now.

I'm not sure how much we can read into nacelle evolution. They went from glowy blue with red caps (Phoenix, NX-01) to one or neither of those (TOS Enterprise, all the movie ships - Enterprise, Reliant, Grissom, Excelsior), and then switch back to blue/red with the Ambassador and stick with that theme. Then there's the Discovery ships which fit alongside the TOS and movie types.
 
The Refit Enterprise and Enterprise-A engines always had a glow to them, Purple in TMP and Blue in every movie after but only when the ship went to or was at warp. The first Excelsior model, Reliant and Grissom models didn't have any Blue glow in there engines because the movies didn't call for them to have an at warp scene when they were first built and the more lights a model has the more money they cost to make.

Later on in the DS9 era when the ships all became CGI they did give a Blue glow effect to all the Federation ships engines which IMO in universe was an engine refit on all ships to counter the negative effect on space that the old engines had from that TNG episode.
 
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Indeed, even in TVH we can see the Enterprise-A engines light up when entering warp at the very end of the movie. I love the consistency of the effect during the movies, it makes sense for the warp coils to only be 'on' during warp speed after all. Some sort of recalibration must have taken place in the TNG era as by that point ships always had the warp nacelles on.
 
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The idea that the Excelsior's engines failed never really made sense to me. Why would the first activation of experimental engines be performed in a unplanned pursuit, in a fully manned starship, from Earth orbit? [..] I could imagine the performance levels perhaps not reaching the levels hoped for but still being superior to existing designs.

Then again, it could well be that the the engine did work but was inferior to existing designs. That's what happened with the early jet engines, after all, and against theoretical predictions and prototype work.

Such things might only be revealed when scaling up. I rather like the idea that warp in the 23rd century is much like aerodynamics in the 20th, with lots of nifty theoretical ideas and very little chance of applying them for accurate numerical modeling. There'd be lots of prototypes and testbeds, and many a great idea shot down by the harsh reality of physical application.

Which is also how a rudimentary understanding of low warp factors would translate into a fundamental misunderstanding of high warp factors, until one built an engine actually capable of high warp and discovered there was no Warp 11 where the old tachometers had it marked.

Sometime, less than eighteen years prior to "The Cage," the "time barrier" has been broken. Whatever that means.

We never hear of any improvement in space travel within that timeframe from any other source, though. So I'm tempted to say that this is something highly specific to the issue of reaching Talos IV from Earth or vice versa. Perhaps a physical barrier between the two, a nebula or something, that was too dangerous for the older ships to brave?

Also Pike calls for "time warp, factor seven."

Putting a twist to this would be tempting as well.

We hear Pike PA his crew: "This is the Captain. Our destination is the Talos star group, our time warp factor seven..."

Now, the first bit of information is actually informative - did Kirk ever bother to tell his crew where they were going? But what is the purpose of telling the crew the engine setting chosen?

It would make far more sense for Pike to give an ETA. And in that case, he would be saying "Our time - (at) warp factor seven - will be... Umm, fill me in here, Number One". The artistic cuts in the scene, including an artsy fade into a starfield, would result in us hearing many other bits of this exciting back-and-forth militarobabble, but miss the tail end of Pike's PA.

So the "time warp" of the 2240-2250's is the "warp" of the 2260's onward.

Or Pike's "elevator" is Kirk's "lift", and most skippers scoff at those who apply needlessly long forms of technobabble when colloquial abbreviations will do.

So we have four levels of warp development:

We really ought to take into account the warps of other Federation members, developed without Cochrane's input. If warp really comes in different styles, these should be manifest in the early Federation and its jargon. But probably no longer in the 23rd century where everybody uses nacelles already.

We miss out on evolving jargon when visiting the 22nd century in ENT, though. So instead of evolution, we'd do wisely to believe in a steady state, one that just happens to be diverse with odd parallel types of terminology.

Timo Saloniemi
 
We never hear of any improvement in space travel within that timeframe from any other source, though. So I'm tempted to say that this is something highly specific to the issue of reaching Talos IV from Earth or vice versa. Perhaps a physical barrier between the two, a nebula or something, that was too dangerous for the older ships to brave?
This solves the whole "Thyme" issue so simply and tidily, I'm sorely tempted to add it to my head canon! But I do so enjoy the idea of an evolving Warp technology as well...

I'd also really like to know what was in the mind of the writers back in 1964. Clearly they intended it as some of temporal limitation, but did they really mean to imply that the SS Columbia was a sub-lightspeed vessel?
 
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