Agents of SHIELD season 5

[Christopher]

Fitzsimmons is an actual name.

Uhh, yes, that's common knowledge. That was the joke behind their names all along. IIRC, in the pilot episode, there was a bit where Coulson or someone said "Let's take this to Fitzsimmons," and we were led to assume that he was referring to a single person, and then we found out, oh, it's actually a guy named Fitz and a gal named Simmons, ha-hah!

 

[Nerys Myk]

Uhh, yes, that's common knowledge. That was the joke behind their names all along. IIRC, in the pilot episode, there was a bit where Coulson or someone said "Let's take this to Fitzsimmons," and we were led to assume that he was referring to a single person, and then we found out, oh, it's actually a guy named Fitz and a gal named Simmons, ha-hah!

I might be wrong, but I got the impression that Morpheus 02 might not have that knowledge. I on the other hand, do. So I wasn't in need of an refresher.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Well, I loved that flying ship-- how long has it been up there? The Gravitonium must make it invisible to radar, otherwise it would have been detected and investigated (or triggered a nuclear war), but it's a little surprising that no planes spotted it, or flew into it. It was actually pretty stupid for Hale to leave it up there. And they probably should have checked what was down below before letting it drop.

Mack's friend seemed very helpful with the Gravitonium and pledged to be of further help with the research into the Deathlok program-- which probably means that he is evil and will betray them.

I wonder if Fuzzy Future Guy will reveal the truth that he is Fitz and Simmons' grandson-- right before he disappears in a blinding paradox to confirm that the future has been changed. I got a kick out of Fitz and Simmons talking about hyphenating their names. "Simmons-Fitz doesn't really roll off the tongue."

 

[Morpheus 02]

I got a kick out of Fitz and Simmons talking about hyphenating their names. "Simmons-Fitz doesn't really roll off the tongue."

I totally did too...

I might be wrong, but I got the impression that Morpheus 02 might not have that knowledge. I on the other hand, do. So I wasn't in need of an refresher.

umm, yeah, you're wrong (in this case). I was trying to communicate what RJDiogenes did more eloquently... Like him, it hought the joke was hilarious, becuase it flipped what we assumed would be the natural hyphenation (and to me sounded like the writers totally knew that we the fans would get it)

 

[Jayson1]

Sometimes I suspect shows like this are under network pressure to include a handsome young white male lead no matter what, which is why the handsome young white male leads are often the most uninteresting or unnecessary characters. (Though Deke is nowhere near as much of a Scrappy as someone like Sleepy Hollow season 2's much-hated Hawley.)

You forgot Director Mace and Lance Hunter. I think most of them were okay after some work, Ward went evil, Mace went from having powers to having fake powers, Deke is a fish out of water. Hunter was just kind of fun. Lincoln sucked from start to finish. It's actually a trope we have seen as well with white woman. Daisy could with bad luck ended up sucking as well. Diversity hasn't really even changed the trope that much. Burnham on "Discovery" is basically a modern version of these same characters. Sexy and young but boring is still to much of a tv thing. We need more character actors on tv. "Agents of Shield" was great because it started off with a seasoned character actor as it's lead and main star.

Jason

 

[Christopher]

You forgot Director Mace and Lance Hunter.

First, I wasn't attempting to make an exhaustive list in the first place. Second, I wouldn't have counted Mace if I had been, because Jason O'Mara is in his mid-40s, not the kind of obligatory young white male lead I was talking about.

Burnham on "Discovery" is basically a modern version of these same characters. Sexy and young but boring is still to much of a tv thing.

Huh? While Sonequa Martin-Green is a very attractive woman, her character on Discovery certainly hasn't been sexed up or glamorized.

Besides, I'm not attempting a blanket indictment of good-looking young actors. That's entirely missing my point. I'm suggesting that there may be a certain network pressure for shows to include blandly acceptable whitebread leading men, that execs may be afraid that a show without a young white man or two in the main cast can't succeed, and that maybe the reason such characters are often not very successful or interesting is because the producers didn't conceive of them organically but were pressured into tacking them onto stories that didn't need them. If a character is there because the producers wanted them there, because they serve an integral role in the story, then it doesn't matter what sex, age, or ethnicity they are.

 

[Jayson1]

First, I wasn't attempting to make an exhaustive list in the first place. Second, I wouldn't have counted Mace if I had been, because Jason O'Mara is in his mid-40s, not the kind of obligatory young white male lead I was talking about.



Huh? While Sonequa Martin-Green is a very attractive woman, her character on Discovery certainly hasn't been sexed up or glamorized.

Besides, I'm not attempting a blanket indictment of good-looking young actors. That's entirely missing my point. I'm suggesting that there may be a certain network pressure for shows to include blandly acceptable whitebread leading men, that execs may be afraid that a show without a young white man or two in the main cast can't succeed, and that maybe the reason such characters are often not very successful or interesting is because the producers didn't conceive of them organically but were pressured into tacking them onto stories that didn't need them. If a character is there because the producers wanted them there, because they serve an integral role in the story, then it doesn't matter what sex, age, or ethnicity they are.

I agree the trope basically started with young white men and even young white women only that it has somewhat evolved. I disagree that Burnham isn't suppose to be sexy because I think all young good looking characters are expected to provide sex appeal. Just because they don't put them in catsuits or have their shirts ripped off like Kirk doesn't mean they don't find ways of doing it. The strong almost ice queen type of character is basically a type that they know people find to be sexy, It's basically Seven of Nine or T'Pol again but without a catsuit this time. Do you think CBS would have been fine if they had cast Gabourey Sidibe in the role? The need to appeal to just horny white guys has transformed to need to appeal to horny people of all races and genders because they now know the audience for this stuff isn't just white nerds living in their parents basement. It's basically a equality based sex appeal trying to appeal somewhat to everyone on that basic level while also still feeling progressive enough that people won't get offended. That's why we are lucky when we get a Adama or Coulsen or McKay who becomes a star or even more lucky when eye candy and talent mix together like a Angel or Malcom Reynods or Melissa Benoist or Buffy etc,

To be fair we aren't talking about some dark edgy HBO drama so one could argue this stuff isn't that bad since it is targeting a young teenage and college aged audience. Is planned sex appeal still bad even if they are more subtle about it? I'm usually okay with it for the most part but I know I always get more interested when you see a show built around a older character actor. My main interests in "Agents of Shield" going in was because of Coulsen and the Joss Whedon connection and one notch bellow that was Ming-Na Wen. Anytime the young pretty people work out it almost always feels like a bonus and it worked out well for all of them on this show except for Ward until mid-season and he turned evil.

Jason

 

[Christopher]

I agree the trope basically started with young white men and even young white women only that it has somewhat evolved. I disagree that Burnham isn't suppose to be sexy because I think all young good looking characters are expected to provide sex appeal.

You're still utterly missing my point. I'm not talking about sex appeal. That's not even close to the subject. I'm talking about sexism and racism, as well as ageism. I'm suggesting that the prejudices of network/studio executives often make them assume that a show can't succeed unless it has a relatively young, conventional white male lead, so that shows whose creators see no need for such a character will be pressured to include one anyway. Agents of SHIELD subverted this nicely by having the conventional white male hero turn out to be the show's archvillain and dumping him from the team, although the fact that they ended up adding new white male protagonists thereafter suggests that the pressure didn't go away.

Fortunately, we've now seen several shows and movies with female and/or black leads proving highly successful, so hopefully the assumption that success requires white male leads is fading.

The need to appeal to just horny white guys...

This statement shows how you and I are talking about two completely unrelated subjects. I'm talking about the pressure to cast characters who are white and male. That's obviously not about appealing to the heterosexual male libido. It's about appeasing the prejudice of executives and audiences who think white male characters need to be kept central by default.

 

[Jayson1]

You're still utterly missing my point. I'm not talking about sex appeal. That's not even close to the subject. I'm talking about sexism and racism, as well as ageism. I'm suggesting that the prejudices of network/studio executives often make them assume that a show can't succeed unless it has a relatively young, conventional white male lead, so that shows whose creators see no need for such a character will be pressured to include one anyway. Agents of SHIELD subverted this nicely by having the conventional white male hero turn out to be the show's archvillain and dumping him from the team, although the fact that they ended up adding new white male protagonists thereafter suggests that the pressure didn't go away.

Fortunately, we've now seen several shows and movies with female and/or black leads proving highly successful, so hopefully the assumption that success requires white male leads is fading.




This statement shows how you and I are talking about two completely unrelated subjects. I'm talking about the pressure to cast characters who are white and male. That's obviously not about appealing to the heterosexual male libido. It's about appeasing the prejudice of executives and audiences who think white male characters need to be kept central by default.

I understand what you are saying and I agree that they felt they needed a sexy white guy. who was kind of the second lead. To me though I don't think they feel the need for shows to revolve around those characters anymore which means i'm not so sure if they really see some of these characters beyond their sex appeal, anymore. I can easily see them sitting back and saying things like, we need a sexy white guy and a sexy black guy who would be Mack and eventually the same as Yo Yo.. I do think they might be looking at things from a sexist and racist point-of-view but they are sort of looking at the entire cast like they are all sex symbols so it's sexism and racism but it goes a little deeper than just trying to appease white only nerds anymore. Even racist know how to not always let their racism get in the way of business. To use a basketball example I think their are lots of Donald Sterlings out their and fewer Adolph Rupp's who went years before allowing any black players at Kentucky. Sterling on the other hand would pay players tons of money and I doubt any player was ever cut from the Clippers because of his skin color yet he was proven to be a racist.

With this show the white sexy male characters actually stopped being central to the show once Grant turned evil. Grant was a different character after that change and became less important to the show. The other two was just generic love interest who kind of faded away like the other character that was introduced who was latino and gay. Deke feels like comic relief and to be honest is he considered young and sexy or even essential? I mean he is young but he doesn't seem to Grant level of a hunk. He feels kind of nerdy to me which might be one of the reasons I like him.

Jason

 

[Christopher]

^We're just talking past each other at this point. "Sexy" is too generic a property of actors to be all that significant unless it's specifically emphasized in the writing or costuming. And it's also a matter of opinion. I'm sure there are a lot of people who think Coulson is sexy.

 

[Jayson1]

^We're just talking past each other at this point. "Sexy" is too generic a property of actors to be all that significant unless it's specifically emphasized in the writing or costuming. And it's also a matter of opinion. I'm sure there are a lot of people who think Coulson is sexy.

I think the proper word is traditional sexy. I still think they feel the need to have model, GQ types on shows and haven't fully embraced the idea that there are people open to diversity not just in color or gender but in body and facial types as well or even personality types. We still see a lack of eccentric weirdo's and emotionally vunerable people with some major league character flaws outside of serious drama's. It's better but people still feel the need for some characters to be "Hero's" instead of just regular people. The Jessica Jones and The Punisher are still kind of the exceptions to the rules. Even Coulson is held back some from the fact we are talking about a ABC network show.

Jason

 

[Christopher]

Again, a total change of subject from what I was talking about.

 

[Forbin]

As I watch the show, I'm admiring how every single character is important to the show. I think back to shows like Miami Vice, for example - the secondary characters of the four other cops in the unit were just set dressing half the time. The two female officers were either undercover as hookers, or just in the background dressed that way. The two male officers were comic relief (IF they got any lines). Crocket and Tubbs, and later Castillo, were up front 95% of the time and the rest of the cast were cardboard backdrops. It's like the writers didn't know what to do with more than 2 or 3 characters.

AoS gives everybody importance, and everybody has moments in almost every episode. It's wonderful.

 

[Jayson1]

As I watch the show, I'm admiring how every single character is important to the show. I think back to shows like Miami Vice, for example - the secondary characters of the four other cops in the unit were just set dressing half the time. The two female officers were either undercover as hookers, or just in the background dressed that way. The two male officers were comic relief (IF they got any lines). Crocket and Tubbs, and later Castillo, were up front 95% of the time and the rest of the cast were cardboard backdrops. It's like the writers didn't know what to do with more than 2 or 3 characters.

AoS gives everybody importance, and everybody has moments in almost every episode. It's wonderful.

I agree. Not quite on the level of the "Stargate" shows were even RDA's stunt man and the guy in charge of stunts became a beloved character but it is impressive. I think it's a leftover thing from Joss Whedon. He tends to give background characters real dialogue and see's them as real people instead of just glorified extra's or even as props.

Jason

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I think it's a leftover thing from Joss Whedon.

J. Michael Straczynski, Ira Steven Behr, Ron Moore, and Michael Piller would likely disagree, among others.

 

[Jayson1]

J. Michael Straczynski, Ira Steven Behr, Ron Moore, and Michael Piller would likely disagree, among others.

Those guys were good and are still good in the case of the living ones. Whedon though helped create this show and his son also had lots to do with and I know it use to have a few "Buffy" or "Angel" writers connected to the show. Not sure how many of those people are still connected though to it.

Jason

 

[Christopher]

Whedon though helped create this show and his son also had lots to do with

If you're referring to Jed Whedon, he's Joss's younger brother. Joss Whedon's son is named Arden and is only 14 or 15.

 

[Jayson1]

If you're referring to Jed Whedon, he's Joss's younger brother. Joss Whedon's son is named Arden and is only 14 or 15.

I didn't know that. Not sure why I always thought he was a son.

Jason

 

[Tuskin38]

So either Fitz and Simmons changed their names in the future or Deke’s mother never told him their names

 

[The Old Mixer]

HAIL HYDRA!!!