Moffat: The Whole Rotten Saga

[Starkers]

I love em

 

[Allyn Gibson]

This is absolutely true. I guess I just didn't care for them to such a degree that I felt like they were always popping up. I was very glad they hadn't appeared again after Deep Breath. When I heard they were talking about spinning them off to their own series, I was thinking, 'Does the whole world besides me just love these fools?'

I liked the Paternoster Gang conceptually. I loved the idea that the Doctor had allies throughout time and space he could call upon that we, the audience, had never met. That implied that there were important adventures in the Doctor's life that we had no access to, but it was completely in keeping the character of the Doctor and his history. I felt that Vastra and Jenny, in their first appearance, expanded the mythos. The execution didn't always work for me.

I wasn't opposed to a spin-off with the Paternosters, though I frankly struggled to find the point of one. The concept -- "Victorian adventures with a lesbian Silurian Sherlock Holmes and her sword-wielding servant/wife and their dimbulb Sontaran muscle" -- made me go, "Okay, and...?" (Deep Breath, ironically given that it's their last on-screen appearance, gave me an idea of how it would work -- it's the Basil Rathbone Sherlock Holmes films, with Nigel Bruce's dimbulb Watson split between Jenny and Strax.) At one point, and I've said this over the years, it would have been quite economical for the BBC to produce, as they could have used Ripper Streets's sets (and, for that matter, props) in Dublin. I also think that Mark Gatiss would have been a great showrunner for it; if he could have brought some of the wit and atmosphere of his novel, The Vesuvius Club, there was a potential for something interesting.

Fundamentally, my objection to a Paternoster Gang spin-off was that it was just too obvious. I'd like to see more spin-offs, but I'd like to see them in genres and styles that you don't automatically associate with Doctor Who. The Pilot suggests an interesting show -- College sitcom/dramedy in the Doctor Who universe. I've thought about "Star Trek/The Orville in the Doctor Who universe" -- an Earth Federation/Empire ship boldly going and exploring Mutter's Spiral with a multi-species crew of humans, Ice Warriors, Draconians, Ogrons, etc. What about a Gray's Anatomy or Holby City in the Doctor Who universe? (That's what I would have done with Martha Jones back in 2008.) What about non-sci-fi costume dramas with historical characters the Doctor meets in his travels? (I'd have done a Masterpiece-style story about Reinette with Sophia Myles back in the day.) It's a big universe and there are lots of stories and lots of characters to tell them. Think big.

 

[Burning Hearts of Qo'nos]

I like those ideas! Instead, we were given Class, lol.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Given what we learned about Clara's history with the Doctor's past in "The Name of the Doctor" and the Doctor's encounter with Queen Victoria in "Tooth & Claw," I am personally of the opinion that the Masterpiece series Victoria IS part of the Doctor Who universe!

Personally, while they both had tiresome, bullshitty habits, Moffat's aligned much closer to my own than RTD's (ooh, look, someone's immediate family! I wonder if they'll get along!), so on balance, I enjoyed his section of the series quite a bit more than the first four seasons.

Agreed. My eventual epiphany was that, by trade, RTD is a soap opera writer while Moffat is a sitcom writer. Which means that, when all else fails, Moffat's scripts were always at least funny while RTD only had angst to fall back on. I also appreciate the fact that Moffat drained a lot of the sex appeal out of the Doctor and turned him back into the eccentric, avuncular alien that, IMO, he was always supposed to be.

"about the triumph of intellect and romance over brute force and cynicism."

Off topic, but does this quote pre-date that Craig Ferguson music video or is it just from that? I've never heard it outside of that video but it certainly sounds like something that Terrance Dicks would say.

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That being said, I strongly suspect that in the years to come, it'll become easy to consider the RTD/Moffat years as one big era that has far more similarities than differences, and aspects we see currently as being part of doing Doctor Who in the 21st century will prove to be more specific to them after we've seen what Chibnall and his successors do with the show.

I think you might have a point about that. In some ways, I feel like Matt Smith very much felt like part of the same progression of the character that began with Christopher Eccleston & David Tennant. Peter Capaldi, while retaining the higher level of quippiness that Moffat brought to Smith's Doctor, nevertheless feels more like a refresh of the character. Capaldi just brings a completely different energy than the Tennant/Smith Doctor.

He often wrote long-winded, empty-air diatribes about the Doctor's supposed capability for wrath, when he clearly was a pussycat throughout those eight years.

One of my favorite moments is when Clara deflates that image in "Face the Raven": "Your reign of terror will end with the sight of the first crying child and you know it."

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It wasn't what I wanted (after "The Pilot," what I really wanted was an entire year of the Doctor teaching at St. Cedd's... err, St. Luke's)

It would have been interesting if they could have done that entire arc as an earth-bound story kind of like when Jon Pertwee was stranded on Earth working for UNIT.

When I heard they were talking about spinning them off to their own series, I was thinking, 'Does the whole world besides me just love these fools?'

I seem to recall an interview with Moffat where he said that the BBC wanted to do a Paternoster Gang spin-off but Moffat said no because he felt that it would be spreading the joke a bit thin. Admittedly, I felt that the lesbian-lizard-woman jokes did get old pretty quickly. However, I absolutely never tire of Strax saying something stupid & casually violent. "And we will NOT melt him with acid! Old habits."

I will miss Moffat something terrible (although not as much as I'm going to miss Capaldi).

Season 5 is amongst my favorite single seasons of any TV show ever. I love the whole Smith/Amy/Rory dynamic and it gets bonus points for whenever River Song is hanging around too! Season 5 features many of the shows greatest episodes ever, including "The Eleventh Hour," "Vampires of Venice," "Amy's Choice," "Vincent & the Doctor," & "The Lodger." You could cull the entirety of all 4 RTD seasons and not come up with a collection that awesome.

Season 6 is sort of a double-edged sword. On the one hand, it maintains a lot of my residual goodwill for the Smith/Amy/Rory/River line-up. It also gave us a couple of stellar entries with "The Doctor's Wife" & "The God Complex." On the other hand, it often featured storylines with weak finishes. The initial set-up for "The Impossible Astronaut" is brilliant but all of the arc episodes that follow up on it are pretty weak ("Day of the Moon," "A Good Man Goes to War," "Let's Kill Hitler," "The Wedding of River Song"). And after teasing out details about River Song bit by bit in her appearances in Seasons 4 & 5, Season 6 revealed too much all at once about the character. She's fun enough on her own without needing the mystery box to make her interesting but it did kind of deflate some of the appeal for me.

Season 7 was, IMO, the absolute pits as far as the Moffat era goes. While I was desperate to cling onto every last morsel of Amy & Rory that I could get, I think their departure was way too over the top. As for Clara, I didn't like the flirty relationship she had with Smith's Doctor and that was a case of the mystery completely overwhelming the character. Moffat made up for the weak Season 7 with the excellent "The Day of the Doctor" but then muddied the waters again with "The Time of the Doctor."

Season 8 saw improvement with Clara having much more chemistry with Capaldi than she did with Smith. But it struggled with how to portray the Doctor, with some episodes seemingly going out of their way to make him a jerk, which was unnecessary. Still, there were enough awesome episodes ("Listen," "Time Heist," "The Caretaker," "Mummy on the Orient Express," "Flatline") to make Season 8 the most solid entry since Season 5. Even a lot of the weaker episodes still featured some brilliant moments, like the restaurant scene in "Deep Breath," all the Doctor/Clara/Robin Hood dungeon bickering in "Robot of Sherwood," Clara threatening to destroy the TARDIS keys in "Dark Water," and Capaldi's fantastic smile as he says, "Trees!" in "In the Forest of the Night."

As for Season 9, I feel a strong need to leap to its defense since everyone else is slagging off on it. While I'll admit that the "arc" regarding "The Hybrid" was nonsense, there's just no way that you can convince me that Season 9 isn't a great season of Doctor Who when it gave us "Under the Lake," "Before the Flood," "The Girl Who Died," "The Zygon Inversion," and especially "Heaven Sent." In fact, forget the above paragraph. Let me try this again...

Season 9, "Heaven Sent," 'nuff said!

Season 10 is still somewhat in provisional status for me since my DVD player crapped out on me before I could do a proper re-watch. Not all of it is great. "The Pilot" does a good job of introducing Bill but not much else. "Smile" ruins the mystery by giving away too much in the prologue. The Monks trilogy has a few bits that work but lots of bits that don't and it feels like a massive, awkward rock in the middle of the season. But, man alive does "World Enough & Time" & "The Doctor Falls" make up for a multitude of sins! I also feel like there's a lot of untapped potential in Season 10. I think they could have gotten a lot more mileage out of Missy. And the Capaldi/Bill/Nardole TARDIS team was over right when they found their groove.

 

[Mr Awe]

Agreed. My eventual epiphany was that, by trade, RTD is a soap opera writer while Moffat is a sitcom writer. Which means that, when all else fails, Moffat's scripts were always at least funny while RTD only had angst to fall back on.

So, that's funny because Moffat would agree with you. I met him at his Gallifrey One appearance. I mentioned that I first became aware of his work with Coupling where I knew him as a comedy writer who also happened to like Doctor Who. He said that is still true!

 

[The Wormhole]

Given what we learned about Clara's history with the Doctor's past in "The Name of the Doctor" and the Doctor's encounter with Queen Victoria in "Tooth & Claw," I am personally of the opinion that the Masterpiece series Victoria IS part of the Doctor Who universe!

Titan Comics actually did a Doctor Who story featuring Queen Victoria in which she's drawn in Jenna Coleman's likeness.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I love em

Ditto.

 

[sttngfan1701d]

The more I rewatch RTD's era, the more I dislike the entire feel of it. What I liked when I was 23, I now cringe at and find cheesy. So as tiresome as Moffat became at times, I prefer his era. So sorry, I can't pile on here.

 

[Hey Missy]

The more I rewatch RTD's era, the more I dislike the entire feel of it. What I liked when I was 23, I now cringe at and find cheesy. So as tiresome as Moffat became at times, I prefer his era. So sorry, I can't pile on here.

Indeed; I rewatched The Stolen Earth/Journey's End recently... hooooooo boy...
Towards the end, it seems Russel kept trying to outdo himself - "bigger, louder, sadder!"

 

[M.A.C.O.]

It's a one two punch for me. Moffat drove Who and Sherlock into the ground with his inflated ego and bad story telling. He imagines that he is so clever, but the results only end up frustrating his audience.

I can't do it. And I've been trying to hype myself up for a Calpadli marathon of Dr Who. Since I can't remember the early seasons.

 

[CuriousCaitian]

While I found plenty to enjoy throughout Moffat's tenure, the feelings that linger with me the most about it are disappointment and frustration. That the man can write is beyond any doubt; the episodes he contributed to RTD's time as showrunner were uniformly tremendous. After a solid first series in charge, though (albeit with a finale that didn't quite, for me, live up to the setup) it all started to go wrong.

Series 6 and series 7 were undone by convoluted plotting (I still struggle to grasp it all) that felt more like rapid-fire bursts of BIg Ideas strung haphazardly together than coherent arcs. I was left with the distinct impression that Moffat needs restrictions, needs oversight and rules in order to properly focus, otherwise his imagination runs away with him, and he struggles to stitch the results together properly. That he seems to lose interest in things pretty quickly didn't help either. How many of the Big Reveals in the Smith era actually had impact, and how many of those lingered in any meaningful way?

Then came series 8, 9 and 10, and Doctor 12. The storytelling was calmer, more focused, but we now had a incompletely characterised and inconsistently depicted lead, and an attempt at a darker tone that, for me, never properly gelled, and was sometimes misjudged (Death in Heaven springs readily to mind, along with Thin Ice). The best moments of this incarnation were mostly thanks to Capaldi, and often in spite of Moffat, who was actively starting to repeat himself (characters waiting for long periods of time; the Doctor's imminent death in S9 so soon after evading it in S7; 12 questioning if he was a good man, right after War had in the Anniversary Special, and more). Frankly, I had serious difficulties with this stretch of the show, and I'm glad it's over; darkness and the Doctor are best only blended in carefully measured doses.

To be fair, I suspect my discomfort with much of 12's era stems from my first encounter with the Doctor, back in the early eighties. I'm almost certain Colin Baker was in the TARDIS, then, and as his time has been variously described as dark, mean-spirited and even nihilistic, it likely explains my poor reaction to the show. The reign of 12 has strong echoes of my childhood memories, a difficult Doctor who often seems cold and uncaring, following downbeat, sometimes unpleasant storylines, so I'm likely unconsciously prejudiced against it to some degree.

All that said, I'm eager for series 11, and Doctor 13. Jodie Whittaker has so much promise, and I hope beyond hope Chibnall and his team let her realise it.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

the best moments of this incarnation were mostly thanks to Capaldi, and often in spite of Moffat, who was actively starting to repeat himself (...12 questioning if he was a good man, right after War had in the Anniversary Special...).

Twelve questioning this didn't bother me. It's close in proximity for the audience, true, but for the character, we're talking about a 1,300 year gap, give or take. Coming on the heels of being trapped on Planet Snowglobe for 900 years, traveling with Clara (who, at that point, was basically a stranger to him), Twelve having a crisis of conscience and being emotionally scarred was entirely to be expected -- had Moffat treated the situation realistically. Instead, the Series 8 Doctor behaves, more or less, like the entire Trenzalore experience lasted an afternoon for him and he just had Christmas dinner with Clara's parents the day before yesterday. The times when he asked, "Am I a good man?" felt to me like things the Doctor should have realistically said and felt, if a bit superficially, given the things that Moffat had done to him.

Sorry, I'm about to get angry. Moffat made himself an opportunity to do something psychologically deep and interesting with the character of the Doctor, and then he squandered it.

 

[CuriousCaitian]

Twelve questioning this didn't bother me. It's close in proximity for the audience, true, but for the character, we're talking about a 1,300 year gap, give or take. Coming on the heels of being trapped on Planet Snowglobe for 900 years, traveling with Clara (who, at that point, was basically a stranger to him), Twelve having a crisis of conscience and being emotionally scarred was entirely to be expected -- had Moffat treated the situation realistically. Instead, the Series 8 Doctor behaves, more or less, like the entire Trenzalore experience lasted an afternoon for him and he just had Christmas dinner with Clara's parents the day before yesterday. The times when he asked, "Am I a good man?" felt to me like things the Doctor should have realistically said and felt, if a bit superficially, given the things that Moffat had done to him.

Sorry, I'm about to get angry. Moffat made himself an opportunity to do something psychologically deep and interesting with the character of the Doctor, and then he squandered it.

Good points, well made. Unfortunately, squandering opportunities was par for the course with Moffat the showrunner. That's why I noted his seeming habit of losing interest in things, as time and again he'd set up something brimming with possibilities, only to later drop the ball to one degree or another. A mind too active and fast-moving for its own good, I fear.

An unwillingness to fully commit to a given plot or character thread, leaving himself room to pursue whatever spark flared next almost as soon as it hit, was especially problematic in a period of relative tonal and thematic darkness, because little will jar or discomfit more when improperly addressed.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

So, that's funny because Moffat would agree with you. I met him at his Gallifrey One appearance. I mentioned that I first became aware of his work with Coupling where I knew him as a comedy writer who also happened to like Doctor Who. He said that is still true!

I was familiar with his work on Coupling long before I saw a single episode of Doctor Who, so I just remembered being excited that such a brilliant sitcom writer was now working on an iconic sci-fi show. (I only ever saw a handful of episodes of Coupling but some of them rank among the funniest half-hours in TV history-- "Inferno," "Split," "The Man with Two Legs." Shame that Jeff left in the final season, crippling the show's key comedy engine. Kinda reminds me of when Rimmer left in the 7th season of Red Dwarf; they lost the character that the show could least afford to lose!)

The more I rewatch RTD's era, the more I dislike the entire feel of it. What I liked when I was 23, I now cringe at and find cheesy.

Admittedly, some of RTD's stuff worked better specifically because he was presiding over a re-launch of the show after a 16 year hiatus, so some of it seems a bit basic in retrospect. (Rose in particular feels like a very basic companion to me. Later companions would be more flavorful but she mostly seemed to be an attempt to create the archetypal companion, sort of a modern day version of the vastly overrated Sarah Jane.) Seeing the Earth getting invaded or a climactic season-ending confrontation with the Daleks was a lot more satisfying the first time around. I think Moffat showed us that the show could be more, even if his execution didn't always match his imagination.

Indeed; I rewatched The Stolen Earth/Journey's End recently... hooooooo boy...
Towards the end, it seems Russell kept trying to outdo himself - "bigger, louder, sadder!"

Agreed. What made it worse was that David Tennant tended to have the same bad instincts-- When in doubt, go over the top. I've often thought that, had Tennant stuck around for another season and worked with Moffat on Season 5, he would rank a lot higher on my list of favorite Doctors.

It's a one two punch for me. Moffat drove Who and Sherlock into the ground with his inflated ego and bad storytelling. He imagines that he is so clever, but the results only end up frustrating his audience.

I can't do it. And I've been trying to hype myself up for a Calpadli marathon of Dr Who. Since I can't remember the early seasons.

I don't know that it's Moffat's ego so much as the fact that he's easily bored. I feel like the first 3 seasons of Sherlock neatly parallel the 3 Matt Smith seasons of Doctor Who. The 1st season perfectly executes the formula while giving it a neat twist. The 2nd season deconstructs the formula. The 3rd season deconstructs the deconstruction. He keeps needing to twist the show around itself to keep himself interested. It makes him a brilliant writer and while you generally want someone with that much creativity running the show, I would agree that he probably would have benefited from more structure and someone to tell him when his ADD had pushed things just a little too far.

On the plus side, if you're having trouble hyping yourself up for a Capaldi marathon, I would note that none of Capaldi's seasons were nearly as convoluted as the later Smith seasons. If you really have to avoid the worst indulgences, just skip over "The Magician's Apprentice," "Hell Bent," and the Monks 3-parter.

After a solid first series in charge, though (albeit with a finale that didn't quite, for me, live up to the setup) it all started to go wrong.

For me, the Season 5 finale is one of the few season finales in the new series that actually does work for me. In fact, it was by far my favorite season finale up until Season 10 gave us "The Doctor Falls." Most of Moffat's other finales fell short in some way.

"The Wedding of River Song" & "The Name of the Doctor" were both interesting sci-fi concepts that probably would have worked better in novel form. They're just too convoluted to turn into compelling visual drama. "The Wedding of River Song" also suffers from an unsatisfying resolution to the mysteries surrounding the Doctor's death. But then, I'm not sure what resolution to that would have satisfied me.

"Death in Heaven" has some interesting ideas but a lot of pacing issues and a lot of speeches at the end.

"Hell Bent," again, gets bogged down by monologues. Also, I think it helps illustrate why RTD made the right call in destroying Gallifrey when he took over the series. The Time Lords are more interesting in concept than they are in execution. Now, while I completely understand Moffat's decision to save Gallifrey in "The Day of the Doctor," I think he also made the right call to have it remain lost at the end of the episode. After all that build-up, the Doctor's return to Gallifrey in "Hell Bent" could never live up to the hype in our imaginations. Still, I think that there were a lot of good bits in "Hell Bent," like the showdown in the desert, the stuff in the diner, and Clara's genuinely heartbreaking reaction when she learns about what the Doctor went through inside the Confession Dial.

Still, better than RTD just giving us the same finale over & over:
"The Parting of the Ways": Rose becomes a superbeing that magically destroys all the Daleks.
"Journey's End": Donna becomes a superbeing that magically destroys all the Daleks.
"Last of the Time Lords": Martha tells everyone to say the Doctor's name, which turns him into a superbeing. All the Toclafane get sucked back into the vortex.
"Doomsday": The Doctor uses a giant lever to suck all the Daleks & Cybermen back into the vortex.

Then came series 8, 9 and 10, and Doctor 12. The storytelling was calmer, more focused, but we now had a incompletely characterised and inconsistently depicted lead, and an attempt at a darker tone that, for me, never properly gelled, and was sometimes misjudged (Death in Heaven springs readily to mind, along with Thin Ice). The best moments of this incarnation were mostly thanks to Capaldi, and often in spite of Moffat, who was actively starting to repeat himself (characters waiting for long periods of time; the Doctor's imminent death in S9 so soon after evading it in S7; 12 questioning if he was a good man, right after War had in the Anniversary Special, and more). Frankly, I had serious difficulties with this stretch of the show, and I'm glad it's over; darkness and the Doctor are best only blended in carefully measured doses.

As a previous poster noted, much of the Moffat era seemed to be designed to refute the RTD episodes that implied that the Doctor might be just as bad as the monsters that he fights. So it does make it kind of disappointing that there were so many early Capaldi episodes that seemed to revert back to that darker RTD ethos-- "You are a good Dalek" from "Into the Dalek," not knowing whether or not the Doctor killed that clockwork cyborg in "Deep Breath," the big argument between the Doctor & Clara at the end of "Kill the Moon," wondering for a moment whether or not the Doctor just saved himself & Clara and left everyone else to die at the end of "Mummy on the Orient Express," the Doctor just generally being a callous jerk towards Courtney Woods in "The Caretaker" & "Kill the Moon."

 

[CuriousCaitian]

As a previous poster noted, much of the Moffat era seemed to be designed to refute the RTD episodes that implied that the Doctor might be just as bad as the monsters that he fights. So it does make it kind of disappointing that there were so many early Capaldi episodes that seemed to revert back to that darker RTD ethos-- "You are a good Dalek" from "Into the Dalek," not knowing whether or not the Doctor killed that clockwork cyborg in "Deep Breath," the big argument between the Doctor & Clara at the end of "Kill the Moon," wondering for a moment whether or not the Doctor just saved himself & Clara and left everyone else to die at the end of "Mummy on the Orient Express," the Doctor just generally being a callous jerk towards Courtney Woods in "The Caretaker" & "Kill the Moon."

I saw the RTD implications a little differently, in that the Doctor could be as bad as those he fights, certainly had the potential to be, but rarely ever was (The Runaway Bride and Waters of Mars are times it could be argued he was, but it's clear how much he regretted them) thanks to his compassion and the companions he kept.

Number 12, in contrast, frequently showed no real sense of empathy with others or remorse for the things he did, brushing off any objections from Clara or Bill. This was a Doctor who set people fleeing in terror after telling them to look up "the Doctor: cause of death", because the count never stops rising, and he never reacts to it. The worst thing, though, was that all this never appeared to have a purpose; it was darkness just for the sake of it.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Aside from Doctor Jesus, I've always liked the RTD finales. They felt appropriately big and epic and gave Doctor Who a grandiose feel that it lacked beforehand. Moffat's felt like they tried to emulate that feel too hard, but they ultimately varied in result, series 5 and 10 being by far the more successful efforts.

 

[Hey Missy]

Although Twice Upon a Time went out on more a whimper than a bang, at least it wasn't an embarrassing drawn-out cringe fest like The End of Time.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

I genuinely believe that looking at Twice Upon a Time on its own is a mistake. I know its "designated" on its own, but it really is part three of that finale. In fact, I'd go as far as to say its the equivelant of The Godfather Part III: Not really a story, but a coda. Kinda like, if the Tenth Doctor's tour at the last 25 minutes of End of Time was its own episode or something. Which someone did mention somewhere, and I think its entirely apt.

 

[David cgc]

Well, TUAT was the accidental episode, a late addition when they realized neither Moffat nor Chibnall was slated to do one for 2017. You can very nearly cut straight from the Doctor coming to at the end of "The Doctor Falls" to "You wait a moment, Doctor" and get an idea of what Moffat probably initially had in mind for the end of the episode.

 

[Professor Zoom]

Sorry, I'm about to get angry. Moffat made himself an opportunity to do something psychologically deep and interesting with the character of the Doctor, and then he squandered it.

That's sort of my take on Moffat. He seems to have good ideas, but lacks, sometimes, the wherewithal to stick the ending. Like, it becomes to much and he pulls away.

He likes his tricks and his puzzle boxes.

RTD might not have been a great plotter, but, I responded more to his ability to provoke emotion and the feels. Whereas, Moffat pretty much left me cold.