Some times all one has during edition warring is hope.
Poll Do you consider Discovery to truly be in the Prime Timeline at this point?
- Thread starter Annorax849
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I'm not a fan of Abrams' two flicks, but nothing is more annoying than reading "Jar Jar Abrams".
Jar Jar has his faults but at least he's not one of the Canto Bight casino patrons in TLJ. Some of those characters were campy and ridiculous even by George Lucas-in-1999 standards.
The third, if we consider TOS movies and TNG/TNG movies/DS9/VOY/ENT versions to be variations of the same and don't count the Abramsverse version (which I feel is a bit inconsistent a la the DSC ones, but could be seen as a bald normal ridged one).
I don't think there's any room for them to show unseen Klingons; they are one of the most developed and used species across the franchise.
Maybe, but that gets pretty chancy and is still an annoying situation, esp. since the change was extremely arbitrary as far as I can tell and actively broke something that had been fixed and was fine as was. (It also disproves the "show is sticking to canon" angle we were sold on, which is annoying both in the possibility of the franchise's internal integrity being eroded over time and that the Powers That Be do not follow their own rules for the show.)
I will concede that I'm being extremely nitpicky on this detail and that the show won't fly or fail on it alone. And frankly, the stuff that cannot work has so far not been onscreen, so if that stays that way and we can fit in the DSC Klingons as yet another variation of the main ones, great. If we were to see the DSC Klingons interacting with the TOS movie/TNG ones somewhere in canon (either onscreen or in one of the tie-ins), I would find that to be enough of a fix. I just don't have the confidence that that'll happen and that the Powers That Be will do something that "disproves" the other Klingons existing offscreen of DSC, making the mistake irreconcilable.
But, not in the TOS era.
"Fine" is a relative term. I personally have found the Klingons to be a very odd design, from TOS forward, and not alien enough. As stated, "sticking to canon" can involve changing visuals, while the larger story beats and events remain the same. Even Fuller was willing to play with the visuals, trying to strike a balance between familiar and new. As has been bandied about in this thread and others,
Then its a reboot. It happens. Would I rather they just make it a reboot? Yes, absolutely. But, others have treated things like TMP and TWO and TNG as a reboot, and this might be no different.
Also, since when has the PTB word been sufficient for anything. If GR stated that the Klingons are a big empire and have multiple species within it called "Klingon" it will still be disputed.
Why couldn't they have just shown Klingon houses that looked human from the augment virus?
Easy fix and they actually promised something like this, but it never made it to screen. Instead we get orcs and incredibly lazy WTF ship designs that look nothing like Klingon shops beyond the Sarcophagus ship.
Easy fix and they actually promised something like this, but it never made it to screen. Instead we get orcs and incredibly lazy WTF ship designs that look nothing like Klingon shops beyond the Sarcophagus ship.
Because it was a really stupid retcon? Really, it gives me hope they removed that stupid thing.
Because the Tyler/Voq plot only 'worked' to the extent that it did because they didn't?
Given the variety of designs that Starfleet has, I don't have any problem with the idea that Klingon shipwrights went through an 'experimental phase' where they tried some new stuff, but (potentially) due to a combination of post-WYTMH internal politics, cultural intertia and personnel preference by individual house heads and ships never really took off (the US Navy's LCS and Zumwalt-class being potential RW examples of this).
The D7 and Enterprise are already completely irreconcilable so I don't see why anyone's still trying?
I can live with the Enterprise even if I don't like the pylons. The D7 is a complete piece of garbage and every excuse made to explain its appearance, apologize for it and even take cheap swipes at the original D7 design are either laughable or insulting(or both).
G
Gonzo
Guest
I do think they missed an opportunity to really ground the first few episodes by showing us recognisable Klingon D5/D7's and BoP.
I liked that the Starfleet ships were updated but still recognisable, it has to be said that the producers/designers do have time to rectify the Klingon ships as this is set 10 years prior to ToS.
Whether they will is another matter entirely.
I'm talking about the makeup not the society.
That's not how the Force works (and there is a difference between showing new things that could coexist with the originals, like the new ships, and new things that conflict with the originals). It's a fair question whether the changes are worth objecting to or ruin the TV show, but visuals are as much a part of canon as dialogue.
That's the problem, the DSC creative team insist it's not reboot but treat it like one, in a way that none of the previous installments (save for the Abrams movies) have.
Well, word of God is not canon, which is kinda my point. So far, the worse of the excesses have not made it into the show, but if those do, then we may be left with a real hot mess on our hands in terms of internal consistency.
That retcon is not going anywhere. Even if DSC ignores it, it will still be part of the mythology. (Frankly, we needed it anyways.)
I've seen pictures of the DSC Enterprise and I think that for the exterior, we could imagine that it was refitted after "The Cage" and then refitted back again to it's original specs before the second pilot. The engines are the worst offenders and those could be easily replaced. In short, I think the exterior barely fits, although if they show the insides and it's not pulled right out of the "The Cage," that will not work at all.
No comment on the Klingon ships except that Starfleet uses multiple designs, so why shouldn't others? (I do agree that using an established name was very unwise, but it's not the worse Klingon problem we have here).
I think it can still work, personally.
The Federation as numerous member species. Why not Klingons?
We never needed an explanation for why the Klingons changed appearances between TOS and TMP beyond "bigger budget, better makeup".
If they ignore it, the retcon is itself, retconned. As it should be. Not only was it not needed, it messed with a vast history of trek over a damned joke.
That's kinda the raison d'etre of this whole thread. Thus far the PTB have been insisting that it's not a reboot, while treating it like it is... trying to have their cake and eat it too.
Already raised and responded to umpty-zillion times in these forums over the last few months.
When dealing with a fictional reality, a real-world explanation for something is not a substitute for an in-story explanation. Whatever "we" you think you're talking about obviously excludes a whole lot of fans.That's not now this works. That's not how any of this works.
Yeah, that is how retcons work.
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