Poll Do you consider Discovery to truly be in the Prime Timeline at this point?

[Mirror Mirror]

I don't know if it was ever in specific dialog, but you can overcome a tech, then the other side changes it, improves it, etc. so they regain that advantage.

Does anyone really see the Klingons or Romulans throwing up their hands and saying "oh well, they figured it out, let's give up and become botanists" when it comes to their #1 thing?

The cloaking tech "inconsistency" isn't even an issue.

I agree here. I actually makes a bit more sense they had an earlier version that was flawed. The you get version 2.0 which is the Romulan one, then later version 3.0 which is damned hard to find to the point in TNG it was still effective. But I think its silly to expect the version in use in TNG had never been upgraded as sensors got upgraded all the time.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

I agree here. I actually makes a bit more sense they had an earlier version that was flawed. The you get version 2.0 which is the Romulan one, then later version 3.0 which is damned hard to find to the point in TNG it was still effective. But I think its silly to expect the version in use in TNG had never been upgraded as sensors got upgraded all the time.

Exactamundo. And each time the tech is improved or upgraded, Starfleet starts working on ways to defeat it. Whether that's stealing a prototype or working unit or plans. Section 31 has to make themselves useful somehow

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Guys, there's this thing called "retcon". Maybe some of you never heard of it, but it's a pretty common thing that happens in Trek when the writers take certain artistic liberties whether intentionally or by accident. For the most part it's usually harmless rather than universe breaking.

The most offbeat retcon across the whole franchise is in VOYAGER's "Fury" because of how short lived and pointless it was, where it's stated that no ships can maneuver while at warp, even though we've seen that happen dozens times across all the shows including VOYAGER itself. Not coincidently, the show ignored that rule in the episodes after and every Trek iteration has still shown ships maneuvering at warp.

 

[lawman]

...And how long does "early installment weirdness" apply? Some of my examples are from the third year of the show, are they still "early installments" because it's still the original series? Since this is the first year of Discovery, doesn't "early installment weirdness" come back into effect?

Actually, everything you mentioned is from the first season of TOS, except for "The Enterprise Incident"... and that one is being mischaracterized, because it didn't ever state that it was the first time the crew had encountered a cloaking device. (Spock's exact dialogue from that episode said "I believe the Romulans have developed a cloaking device which renders our tracking sensors useless," which can quite logically be read to imply that their sensors could detect ships cloaked with the tech they'd encountered two seasons earlier. Spock later says to the Romulan commander, "your new cloaking device is a threat to [Federation] security" (emph. added). And the episode also includes dialogue indicating that the cloaking tech they're after will soon be broken.)

DSC is is its own first season, yes... but it's operating in a setting that's been extremely well developed (and thoroughly documented) over the course of more than 50 years. The context is entirely different. You're also ignoring the not-insignificant point about the difference between inadvertent contradictions, and deliberate ones.

Have you actually watched The Orville?

Oh brother.... lmfao

What? It's not a parody. It's very clearly a pastiche, a whole different sort of thing.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Again, ENTERPRISE already retconned that cloaking tech existed by the 22nd century. It's been that case for 17 years now in canon. The notion of cloaking being new in "Balance of Terror"' isn't relevant anymore as far as canon goes. That doesn't ruin the TOS episode, but if it does for you... then my most sincere condolences.

 

[Jeyl]

Does anyone really see the Klingons or Romulans throwing up their hands and saying "oh well, they figured it out, let's give up and become botanists" when it comes to their #1 thing?

Whether or not the Klingons or Romulans still use cloaking technology isn't the issue here. The issue is why Kirk and Spock treat the very concept of cloaking technology like it's something that has never been encountered before even though Starfleet and the Federation have encountered other cloaked ships like it for almost a hundred years.

 

[Jeyl]

Again, ENTERPRISE already retconned that cloaking tech existed by the 22nd century. It's been that case for 17 years now in canon. The notion of cloaking being new in "Balance of Terror"' isn't relevant anymore as far as canon goes.

So canon is canon until it's made irrelevant when writers choose to ignore it. Forgive me if I find your argument a little puzzling.

 

[WebLurker]

Save for the phasers, but I'll grant that.

But, personally. I see it as expanding upon the Federation and TOS era as a whole.

Phasers?

It fits fine for me, retcon, or no retcon. It makes sense to me, what I know about Trek and what I can presuppose on my own. Now, that is for me and I can speak for no one else. As stated elsewhere, I am far more gracious for a show's failings than most people I have met, and think that DISCO can be made to fit with minor adjustments.

That said, would I like an explanation? Of course. It would be great and silence all my wild speculation. But, I've been wildly speculating for a while now, so this is nothing new

Fair enough.

And, yet, a memo from one of the producers confirms this. So, yes, it does fall under "production error."

Secondly, in "Charlie X" the crew were merchant service, not Starfleet regulars.

Court Martial is the Starfleet Command emblem, as with the Ultimate Computer and Menagerie.

We also see delta insignia officers mocking Kirk in "Court Martial" for his failure, so they are not Enterprise officers.

Yes, it is inconsistent. Just like the rest of Star Trek.

Frankly, I think that this's a case where on-screen presentation (canon material) outweighs behind the scenes intent (non-canon stuff), and since onscreen the use of unique patches is far more consistent than the use of a universal patch (only a couple of instances, if I recall), I think that is what should be considered authoritative. Mileage may vary and all that.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

So canon is canon until it's made irrelevant when writers choose to ignore it. Forgive me if I find your argument a little puzzling.

It's not my argument, it's exactly how it's presented by the franchise. Star Trek has never had tight canon. If you accept Star Trek for what it is, you have to accept the inconsistencies and retcons, even if you don't particularly like them. DISCOVERY is following the template that has already been laid out by the last 50 years of Star Trek which includes the retconning that took place during that time span like cloaking technology existing in the 22nd century, and it will no doubt make more retcons along the way, and the shows and films after that will do the same. Again, and again.

As long as the retcons concern only trivial matters, I have no issue. For example, had you taken out the notions of cloaking tech being brand new in "Balance of Terror" it wouldn't in any way change the story. It would still be about the Enterprise trying to track an invisible object. Whether cloaking has ever existed doesn't matter to the story.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

Whether or not the Klingons or Romulans still use cloaking technology isn't the issue here. The issue is why Kirk and Spock treat the very concept of cloaking technology like it's something that has never been encountered before even though Starfleet and the Federation have encountered other cloaked ships like it for almost a hundred years.

Oh yeah, that part is a little strange. Some of the discussion was going more in the "how could TOS not see through the cloak when ENT defeated it with the Suliban tech and when DSC defeated it with magic mushroom tech" direction.

 

[Jeyl]

As long as the retcons concern only trivial matters, I have no issue. For example, had you taken out the notions of cloaking tech being brand new in "Balance of Terror" it wouldn't in any way change the story. It would still be about the Enterprise trying to track an invisible object. Whether cloaking has ever existed doesn't matter to the story.

Actually, there is one thing it would change. The episode does have moments where the crew make observations on the cloaking tech.

SPOCK: Interesting how they became visible for just a moment.
KIRK: When they opened fire. Perhaps necessary when they use their weapon.​

Shouldn't the exchange have been more like this?

SPOCK: Interesting how they became visible for just a moment.
KIRK: Duh! That's how all technology that makes a ship go invisible has worked for the past 100 years Spock!
​

 

[fireproof78]

So canon is canon until it's made irrelevant when writers choose to ignore it. Forgive me if I find your argument a little puzzling.

That's Star Trek. Has been for a long time. Vulcanian, Vulcan's never been conquered, Trills, Temporal Cold War, Suliban, beaming through the shields, traveling at Warp 10, Klingons, James R. Kirk, Chekov and Khan, and on and on and on.

SPOCK: Interesting how they became visible for just a moment.
KIRK: Duh! That's how all technology that makes a ship go invisible has worked for the past 100 years Spock!

No. But, I like the hyperbole though

 

[Mirror Mirror]

Oh yeah, that part is a little strange. Some of the discussion was going more in the "how could TOS not see through the cloak when ENT defeated it with the Suliban tech and when DSC defeated it with magic mushroom tech" direction.

That whole thing does not work for many level. Like how did no one know what Romulans looked like? a whole war and not a single scrap of DNA anywhere? I mean pre DNA, it works, but now days, not so much.

 

[lawman]

Umm, what makes you think that having "a scrap of DNA" would give you any idea what a species looks like?

 

[Mirror Mirror]

Umm, what makes you think that having "a scrap of DNA" would give you any idea what a species looks like?

Because they are freaking Vulcan. Are you telling me no one in Trek knows what Vulcan DNA looks like?

 

[lawman]

In real life, human and chimpanzee DNA is 99% identical. Nevertheless, the species look considerably different.

In the Trek universe, it's established that many (if not most) humanoids around the galaxy share genetic material that was "seeded" by some ancient species, so they're liable to be pretty darn similar as well.

In either case, a scrap of it isn't likely to tell you anything useful about details of the species' morphology.

Besides, the backstory establishes that the battles were fought between spaceships. If the nature of them was such that actual enemy bodies weren't recovered, where exactly do you imagine the DNA would be recovered from?

(Now, if you want to talk about things that "don't work"... how about TNG's quixotic decision to give Romulans prominent brow ridges, despite the fact that they're genetic cousins of Vulcans, as you note, with only a couple of thousand years' separation? But then, that's far from the worst way Trek writers have misunderstood evolution...)

 

[Mirror Mirror]

In real life, human and chimpanzee DNA is 99% identical. Nevertheless, the species look considerably different.

And both are of the same planet and and have millions of years of evolutionary drift. Vulans and Romulans are what 10'000 years apart? They are a freaking ethnicity not a whole new race. It would be like finding Human DNA on another planet, not just human like, pure up 100% human DNA

In the Trek universe, it's established that many (if not most) humanoids around the galaxy share genetic material that was "seeded" by some ancient species, so they're liable to be pretty darn similar as well.

Which means they share maybe the same structure, all of them having DNA. But it would not look the same no more than a Human and a toad are the same, even if they shared the same start.

DNA was not a known thing when TOS came out, which is one of the many reasons that part of history really needs retconned as it makes no freaking sense.

 

[lawman]

We know almost no details of the Earth-Romulan War. One thing we do know is that the battles were fought between spaceships, and the humans never actually saw or recovered the bodies of any Romulans, alive or dead. It's a lot easier to rationalize than dozens of other details of Trek canon from over the years. You just really seem to like the notion of reconning away parts of TOS.

 

[fireproof78]

(Now, if you want to talk about things that "don't work"... how about TNG's quixotic decision to give Romulans prominent brow ridges, despite the fact that they're genetic cousins of Vulcans, as you note, with only a couple of thousand years' separation? But then, that's far from the worst way Trek writers have misunderstood evolution...)

It seems to be a proto-Vulcan thing too, with the Mintakans sharing a similar brow structure. It is very odd. But, as you state, Star Trek has mangled evolution so often that evolution actually sued for defamation of characer.

 

[Mirror Mirror]

We know almost no details of the Earth-Romulan War. One thing we do know is that the battles were fought between spaceships, and the humans never actually saw or recovered the bodies of any Romulans, alive or dead. It's a lot easier to rationalize than dozens of other details of Trek canon from over the years. You just really seem to like the notion of reconning away parts of TOS.

Dude,, you are not gonna fight a war so large it united 4 powers, with 4 fleets nd have zero biological left. Even only space action you are gonna have stuff left over to look at. Ships that did not blow up, parts of ships blown off, parts of troops and crew sucked into space. You do not need a body, you simply needs parts of one. The Vulcans if no one else would have analyze the hell out of battle salavge.

You really do not think this is a super weak easy killed story issue? Really?