I really liked this movie, but I feel I’m not amongst the majority in that while he wasn’t bad, I didn’t think Killmonger was an amazing villain. To be sure, he at least he fleshed out motivations. But I found the performance a bit underwhelming.
Spoilers Black Panther grade and discussion thread
- Thread starter The Nth Doctor
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Went yesterday afternoon, great film, seeing it again next week!
I've found several arguments saying that Killmonger probably would've been a much better villain if he had, very simply, survived the film. After all, T'Challa came to realize that though Killmonger's solutions were misguided, he empathized with some of the causes that Killmonger fought for. It doesn't make Killmonger right, but then there would at least be some discussion between his and T'Challa's competing views, which would flesh out Killmonger more. It's the same reason why the X-Men movies never kill Magneto. That T'Challa would transform Killmonger's childhood home into a monument and force for good properly legitimizes his concerns, but the movie could've done a better job of showing Killmonger's convictions of them.
The moment Killmonger shot his partner there was no coming back for him for me. Live or die, I lost any concern for that outcome at that moment. He showed he's a monster, regardless of his hardships. I wouldn't care to see him again in a sequel. They can have the same dramatic debates with T'Challa's betrayer friend to get the same points across.
The notion of a highly advanced African country is very fascinating. It makes me think about Gorilla City, home of Grodd. I wonder who came up with idea first, DC or Marvel?
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Well, according to Wikipedia, Gorilla City first appeared in 1959, seven years before Wakanda's first appearance in Fantastic Four.
Edit:
Well, according to Wikipedia, Gorilla City first appeared in 1959, seven years before Wakanda's first appearance in Fantastic Four.
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True, but which one became a fully-developed character in its own right and not just a "fictional country #592"?
Very good movie with many great performances which is expected with all the great actors in the cast. Killmonger was one of the best MCU villains. He felt like a real person not a plot device like most of the MCU baddies have felt like. The movie had some funny moments but it wasn't the typical Marvel jokefest. Some of the hand to hand combat was a little difficult to follow at times. It's one of the best MCU movies. I give it n A.
For the trailers I got Death Wish, Venom and Solo.
For the trailers I got Death Wish, Venom and Solo.
Like with a lot of these big movies, I felt the plot could have done with one or two fewer characters so that the remaining ones could have had more room to be fleshed out.
I also don't care too much for the way the Marvel movies continue to sand off the more distinct shapes of its characters into more conventional adventure story archetypes. So T'Chaka, despite his secret shame, is the film's wise and caring father instead of the comics' realpolitik bastard. And T'Challa is a really conventional protagonist when all is said and done instead of the comics' distant and arrogant man-with-the-plan. And Ross is sapped of almost all the comic version's eccentricity.
I wish the film had done more to acknowledge the possibility and moral legitimacy of stuff in-between the two poles of Killmonger's literal world conqueror and T'Challa's end-of-film community outreach (which, as a tool for social change, is the most status quo-supporting, play-it-safe method out there.)
Overall, I did like the movie a lot. It's just easier to harp on the negative. Highlights include the execution of Wakandan culture and Letitia Wright's performance as Shuri.
I also don't care too much for the way the Marvel movies continue to sand off the more distinct shapes of its characters into more conventional adventure story archetypes. So T'Chaka, despite his secret shame, is the film's wise and caring father instead of the comics' realpolitik bastard. And T'Challa is a really conventional protagonist when all is said and done instead of the comics' distant and arrogant man-with-the-plan. And Ross is sapped of almost all the comic version's eccentricity.
I wish the film had done more to acknowledge the possibility and moral legitimacy of stuff in-between the two poles of Killmonger's literal world conqueror and T'Challa's end-of-film community outreach (which, as a tool for social change, is the most status quo-supporting, play-it-safe method out there.)
Overall, I did like the movie a lot. It's just easier to harp on the negative. Highlights include the execution of Wakandan culture and Letitia Wright's performance as Shuri.
Honestly his motivations were fine to me; the movie definitely makes you think about both perspectives and that’s to it’s credit; superhero movies often don’t find a way to show that kind of depth. It was just his acting style wasn’t my cup of tea. That’s all
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The film is already out in Europe and Australia, as well as early showings tonight in the United States. I won't be seeing it until tomorrow afternoon, but I can't wait!
Went Thursday night (the 15th) to see the 10:15 show at the Scotiabank Theater here in Toronto, in IMAX 3D (the best way to see it)-thought that it was amazing, and the best way to celebrate my birthday. I also got a picture of somebody in costume too:
And Red Skull's been resurrected far more times than that in the comics, but there are no signs of the MCU rushing to bring him, either.
Aside from a few very rare cases like Coulson, dead is dead in the MCU. On the contrary, Loki keeps surviving from movie to movie and it helps make him one of the more memorable, consistent villains.
I doubt the MCU will ever go to the 'resurrecting an old bad-guy' well. They have too many other bad guys that haven't been used yet to get through. And if they like a character enough to want them around for multiple movies, they'll make that clear right off the bat ( just like they did for Loki in the Thor post credits scene and for vulture after Homecoming).
Having now seen it I've been talking to friends and acquaintances and have been surprised to find a fair bit of negative reaction from 'tired', ''a bit flat:' and 'uninspired' to just plain 'hated it'.
That's not been reflected in the reviews which built the film up (IMHO) into something it's not. It's certainly not on a par with say, Winter Soldier, Avengers or Guardians.
I gave the movie an A-. It wasn't my favorite superhero movie of all time, but I did like it, and I had some thoughts about Killmonger.
SPOILERS.....
First--why would he be locked up by T'Challa? What crimes did he commit under Wakanda law?
He committed several crimes under US law, but assuming he stays in Wakanda, and there is no extradition, what did he do illegally in Wakanda?
He was the son of a prince in Wakanda, which gave him the legal right to challenge for the throne. That challenge was accepted.
He won the challenge without cheating. T'Challa was depowered and lost the fight fair and square.
So his ascension to the throne was perfectly legal and by Wakanda law, he was the legitimate king. They don't do elections--one can become king in combat.
No one objected to any of Killmonger's actions based on legal grounds. He reversed some precedents, but no one said he engaged in overreach.
As king, it was within his power to make those decisions.
People may have disagreed with those decisions, but legally, they were allowed and followed.
It was only when T'Challa re-emerged, claiming that the fight was not over and that he never yielded or died that Killmonger's status as king became questioned. At that point, that is when the civil war began, as both Killmonger and T'Challa had arguably an equal claim to the throne.
The fight continued, again on fair terms, and T'Challa won, reclaiming the mantle as king.
But as Killmonger committed no crime, why should he be locked up under Wakanda law?
SPOILERS.....
First--why would he be locked up by T'Challa? What crimes did he commit under Wakanda law?
He committed several crimes under US law, but assuming he stays in Wakanda, and there is no extradition, what did he do illegally in Wakanda?
He was the son of a prince in Wakanda, which gave him the legal right to challenge for the throne. That challenge was accepted.
He won the challenge without cheating. T'Challa was depowered and lost the fight fair and square.
So his ascension to the throne was perfectly legal and by Wakanda law, he was the legitimate king. They don't do elections--one can become king in combat.
No one objected to any of Killmonger's actions based on legal grounds. He reversed some precedents, but no one said he engaged in overreach.
As king, it was within his power to make those decisions.
People may have disagreed with those decisions, but legally, they were allowed and followed.
It was only when T'Challa re-emerged, claiming that the fight was not over and that he never yielded or died that Killmonger's status as king became questioned. At that point, that is when the civil war began, as both Killmonger and T'Challa had arguably an equal claim to the throne.
The fight continued, again on fair terms, and T'Challa won, reclaiming the mantle as king.
But as Killmonger committed no crime, why should he be locked up under Wakanda law?
He murdered Forrest Whittaker
Ah, but he interfered in the fight. And clearly while people found that to be abhorrent, no one brought it up when he was king, or even tried to bring him to justice for that, which means that it could not have been contrary to Wakanda law in that situation.
1. When did anyone say they were going to lock him up?
2. Killing Zuri was at the very least a legal gray area. He was not participating in the challenge, though he did interrupt it.
3. Destroying the garden of the heart-shaped herb was definitely not respecting Wakandan law or tradition and it was strenously objected to, and only done under threat of physical force.
4. Refusing to continue the challenge but not relinquishing the throne when it became clear that T'Challa wasn't dead is clearly illegal under the rules presented to us regarding the challenge.
5. His actions were clearly designed to create a global state of war and revolution with Wakanda at the center with no regard for Wakandan tradition or the Wakandan way of life and very little indication that he even cared if anything happened to Wakanda in retaliation. Just because they may not have a specific law that says 'don't do that' doesn't mean that isn't grounds for prosecution. Treason covers lots of different possible actions.
