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Gul Sengosts
Guest
Just wondered, if a Christian said they can't be 100% sure it's real but they believe in it, does that make them an agnostic Christian?
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Amaris
Guest
There are agnostic Christians, so certainly.
G
Gul Sengosts
Guest
Don't know, I think the threshold of where agnosticism ends is the point where you say "I believe this is the case" instead of "I refuse to believe because I can't know". If the slightest doubt makes you agnostic, everyone except the most stubborn would be agnostic.
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Amaris
Guest
Well, that's why there are people who do believe that agnostic is the default position, that when it comes to most things, especially things that aren't necessarily quantifiable, we simply don't know enough to say for certain. Christians who walk on their faith and say "God is real" are not Christian agnostics. Christians who say "I think God could be real, but I don't know for certain," would qualify as Christian agnostics. Blaise Pascal, for example, had his infamous wager for Christian agnostics, and agnostics to tackle.
Much of Christianity, however, pushes to reinforce the notion that doubt is unacceptable, so Christian agnostics may not stay agnostic for long, one way or the other.
@Amaris Read your original post again. The past year or so I've been dabbling in Paganism as well. I'm primarily reading Norse myths right now, and books on Paganism more broadly. I've contemplated attending meetings of my local ADF Druid grove. Might try my hand at the ADF Dedicant program at some point this year. I'm drawn more to ADF than OBOD. Paganism is fun.
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Amaris
Guest
Yes it is. I hope you enjoy your journey.
God was extremely smitey. And I believe Satan was some kind of sock puppet.
Cool thread. For me, being raised in the dichotomy of mandatory daily worship at school but no practical context for religion beyond how to answer the question on a form. I didn’t even know what CofE meant for a long time.
I always felt spiritual connections to things, places, people, but religion, as taught, just didn’t seem relevant. And begging my way in to the after life just didn’t ring true. A couple of my Christian friends bought me the Message because they thought I’d find it more accessible than the New Testament. I genuinely wish I could buy in though.
As for what I do believe is out there, I cannot accept that all that we see arises from the electro-chemical reaction we observe in the brain. There is more. Quantum weirdness must have something to do with it and what I’ve read of quantum biology is just the tip of the iceberg.
For me the biggest question is why is there a something, not a nothing? And I do believe there is an answer to that.
I always felt spiritual connections to things, places, people, but religion, as taught, just didn’t seem relevant. And begging my way in to the after life just didn’t ring true. A couple of my Christian friends bought me the Message because they thought I’d find it more accessible than the New Testament. I genuinely wish I could buy in though.
As for what I do believe is out there, I cannot accept that all that we see arises from the electro-chemical reaction we observe in the brain. There is more. Quantum weirdness must have something to do with it and what I’ve read of quantum biology is just the tip of the iceberg.
For me the biggest question is why is there a something, not a nothing? And I do believe there is an answer to that.
I have to ask why you have the
smiley in your sig.Is there some reason to ridicule what happens when stars go supernova, and what can happen after, given the right set of circumstances?
Granted, some supergiant star very likely didn't say to itself, "I think I'll blow myself up so a bunch of sentient primates can exist several billion years from now and invent Star Trek"... but otherwise, there's nothing I would quibble with in Krauss' words.
Keep in mind that even Earth won't last forever. The Sun might have approximately 5 billion years left, but Earth will be uninhabitable long before then, and will very probably be vaporized when the Sun expands into its red giant phase.
God is a hypocrite. There is plenty of killing in the Old Testament, and plenty of instructions on who, what, when, where, why, and how humans are supposed to kill one another - sometimes for extremely trivial reasons.
Stardust? Krauss is a dick - just my opinion of his alternative Creationism.I have to ask why you have the
Is there some reason to ridicule what happens when stars go supernova, and what can happen after, given the right set of circumstances?
Granted, some supergiant star very likely didn't say to itself, "I think I'll blow myself up so a bunch of sentient primates can exist several billion years from now and invent Star Trek"... but otherwise, there's nothing I would quibble with in Krauss' words.
Keep in mind that even Earth won't last forever. The Sun might have approximately 5 billion years left, but Earth will be uninhabitable long before then, and will very probably be vaporized when the Sun expands into its red giant phase.
God is a hypocrite. There is plenty of killing in the Old Testament, and plenty of instructions on who, what, when, where, why, and how humans are supposed to kill one another - sometimes for extremely trivial reasons.
You do realize that Carl Sagan said it decades before Krauss did, right? You've never heard the phrase "We are starstuff"? Are you now going to snidely call Sagan a "dick" and dismiss current theory on stellar evolution as "alternative Creationism"?
I recommend a review of the basics of what happens when supergiant stars explode. We wouldn't be here if much older stars hadn't formed the atoms beyond helium when they went through their supernova phase and those atoms hadn't eventually been recycled into the stars and planets in the current generation.
Yeah, we are starstuff
You do realize that Carl Sagan said it decades before Krauss did, right? You've never heard the phrase "We are starstuff"? Are you now going to snidely call Sagan a "dick" and dismiss current theory on stellar evolution as "alternative Creationism"?
I recommend a review of the basics of what happens when supergiant stars explode. We wouldn't be here if much older stars hadn't formed the atoms beyond helium when they went through their supernova phase and those atoms hadn't eventually been recycled into the stars and planets in the current generation.
Sounds very much like pixy dust to me. You know one is not required to believe these theories 
Unless they're observed fact. This "pixy dust" consists of atoms such as carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, and lots of others that are necessary for rocky planets, not to mention organic life.Yeah, we are starstuff
Some of those Hubble pictures are really pretty, right? Especially "The Pillars of Creation."
That's an interstellar nursery. New stars are forming there, out of the remains of older stars that blew up. It's recycling on a cosmic scale, and in our case, it led to a reasonably stable parent star, planets, and organic life.
TOS has numerous references to Vega and Rigel, with advanced civilizations living there. The problem is, both those stars are supergiants, and too short-lived to host the kind of civilizations Star Trek was talking about.
In RL, Vega is still very young and its system hasn't finished forming yet. Since it's only 26 light-years away, that's practically observing it in real-time.
No.
How about sticking to real science if you're talking about a real star? According to Wikipedia, Betelgeuse is 640 light-years from Earth, and current calculations are that it will go supernova within the next million years. That's not actually a lot of time as stars' existences are reckoned.
So no, it's not "pixy dust."Wikipedia said:
It's how supergiant stars are when they're in their final stages. Betelgeuse will create heavier elements within itself and when it explodes, these will be added to the cosmos... and may some day become part of a new solar system, and possibly new life forms - which will in turn be made of what Carl Sagan poetically (but not inaccurately) referred to as "starstuff."
So I'm guessing you are unaware that the Cybermen moved Betelgeuse closer to Earth cause
they want that damn TARDIS. All the time unaware that she is standing behind them.
And here I thought you were a Time Lady...
Serious though whatever is out there will bugger our conceptions.
Hope we make the grade.
EDIT: Maybe we should ask the Folk in Bikal...
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I prefer to keep SF and science separate, unless the SF emphasizes plausible science. So if you want the good stuff, I recommend Bova and Cherryh.So I'm guessing you are unaware that the Cybermen moved Betelgeuse closer to Earth cause
they want that damn TARDIS. All the time unaware that she is standing behind them.
And here I thought you were a Time Lady...
Probably. If we ever get going.
OLD TESTAMENT SPOILER ALERT!!! He doesn't.
1) Sending Bears to Murder Children
So a guy named Eliseus was traveling to Bethel when a bunch of kids popped up and made fun of him for being bald. That had to suck, and you can't blame Eliseus for being pissed and cursing them to God. But God had Eliseus' back, by which I mean he sent two bears to maul 42 of these kids to death. For making fun of a bald dude. I have to think Eliseus was looking for something along the lines of a spanking, or maybe the poetic justice of having the kids go bald, but nope, God went straight for the bear murder. But on the plus side, that pile of 40+ children's corpses never made fun of anybody again. (4 Kings 2:23-24)
2) Turning Lot's Wife to Salt
Most folks know about the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, two cities of sin God decided to kill everyone in instead of, you know, making them not full of sin. But this was a town that, when two angels were staying at Lot's place, gathered en masse and asked if they could rape them. I repeat: They wanted to rape angels. So they kind of had their destruction coming. Lot and his family were sent from the city before things went down, and Lot's wife looked back, and God turned her into a pillar of salt. It's generally understood that Lot's wife was looking back in a wistful kind of way at her angel-raping hometown, but the fact is there's nothing in the Bible to suggest this. Nor was Lot's family warned about looking back. Maybe Lot's wife wanted to see Sodom and Gomorrah get what was coming to it. Maybe she was thinking wistfully of the things she had to leave behind. Maybe she wondered if she left the oven on. We'll never know, because God turned her into seasoning for breaking a rule she didn't know existed. (Genesis 19:26)
4) Trying to Kill Moses
In terms of people who God likes, you'd think Moses would be pretty high up on the list, right? I mean, God appointed him to lead the Jews out of Egypt, parted the Red Sea for him, and even picked him to receive the 10 Commandments, right? Yet this didn't stop God from trying to kill Moses when he ran into him at "a lodging place." There is literally no explanation given in the Bible for God's decision to murder one of his chief supporters. The line is "At a lodging place on the way, the Lord met Moses and was about to kill him." The only sensible explanation for this is that God was drunk out of his mind and looking for a bar fight, and you better hope that's correct because the alternative is that God's a psychopath. How was God stopped from murdering his #1 fan? "But [Moses' wife] Zipporah took a flint knife, cut off her son's foreskin and touched Moses' feet with it ... So the Lord let him alone." Either the sight of a very unexpected circumcision sobered God up quickly, or he didn't want to touch a dude who just touched a severed foreskin. Still, it's Moses' son who's the real victim here. (Exodus 4:24-26)
5) Committing So Much Genocide
God has killed so many people, you guys. Okay, I mean technically, God has killed everyone if you subscribe to Judeo-Christian thought, but I'm not talking about indirect methods, I'm talking about God murdering countless people in horrible ways simply because he's pissed off. God drowning every single person on the planet besides Noah and his family is pretty well known, but he also helped the Israelites murder everyone in Jericho, Heshbon, Bashan and many more, usually killing women, children and animals at the same time. Hell, God once helped some Israelites kill 500,000 other Israelites. God's crazy.
6) Ordering His Underlings to Kill Their Own Children
God is obviously good at big picture dickishness, but he also took the time to be a dick on a more personal level. Abraham was another devout man who God decided to fuck with, apparently because he knew he could. God ordered him to sacrifice his son to God (God was a fan of human sacrifice at the time). We know Abraham loved his son, so he was probably kind of upset with this, but hey, God's God, right? So Abraham tricked his unsuspecting son up a mountain onto a sacrificial altar and prepared to murder him. This story actually has a happy ending, in that right before Abraham drove a knife into his son's throat, God yelled "Psyche!" and told him it was only a test. And then Abraham received some blessings after that for being willing to kill his own child at God's whim. And all it took was the dread of being forced to kill his own child on behalf of his angry deity and, presumably, a shit-ton of awkward family dinners for the rest of his life. Abraham got off better than Jephthah, who had to follow through with murdering his daughter (burning her alive, specifically) in order to get on God's good side before battling the Ammonites. (Genesis 22:1-12)
7) Killing Egyptian Babies
Let's be completely up front: The Egyptians and the Jews did not get along. According to the Bible, the Egyptians enslaved the Jews, but the Jews had God on their side, if you kind of ignore God letting his people be enslaved in the first place. Rather getting his worshippers the hell out of there, God wanted to show those damned Egyptians what for, releasing 10 plagues that began with turning the river Nile into pure blood, and ending with the slaughter of the first-born of every single Egyptian man and animal. Now, I suppose it's possible that some, or even most of these first-born were adults who were shitty to the Israelites. But some of them had to be babies who didn't even have the time to persecute the Jews yet. And what the hell did the animals do to the Jews to get caught up in this nightmare? Were there proto-Nazi cows running around who needed to be punished for their transgressions against the chosen people? And you realize there were cats in Egypt, right? Cats who had first-born? God killed kittens. (Numbers 16:41-49)
8) Killing a Dude for Not Making More Babies
So you're a dude named Onan and you have a brother named Er. God does not care for Er, and kills him. Standard God operating procedure. Then things gets weird. Onan's dad orders Onan to have sex with Er's wife — not marry, by the way, just have sex with. This is actually pretty awkward for Onan, sleeping with his sister-in-law, and rather than give her any more kids (she had two with Er already) he pulls out. God is so infuriated that Onan did not fuck his sister-in-law to completion that he kills him, too. Now, you could argue that God demands that intercourse be used specifically for procreation, but given how much God loves killing babies and children, I don't think his motives here are exceptionally pure. (Genesis 38:1-10)
9) Helping Samson Murder People to Pay Off a Bet
More evidence that God is possibly a low-level mobster: When his pal Samson got married, he was given 30 friends, and he posed them (a completely insane) riddle. Then he made a bet that if they could solve it in a week, Samson would give them all new clothes, but if they couldn't they would give Samson 30 pairs of new clothes. Well, Samson's wife wheedled the answer out of him and then told these dudes, at which point an angry Samson had to pay up. And here's where God comes in — literally, into Samson, giving him the power to murder 30 random people for their clothes. Only a true friend would help you commit mass murder to settle a completely stupid bet. (Judges 14:1-19)
11) Killing People for Complaining About God Killing Them
To be fair, after God freed the Israelites from Egyptian slavery, they were extraordinarily bitchy about not instantly being in a land of milk and honey. It got so bad that God was ready to kill all of them and let Moses start the Jews over, although Moses managed to talk him out of it. But one of their more sensible complaints was that Moses was lording himself over the rest of them, which was probably true, seeing as God had given him the 10 Commandments and all that. So Moses summoned the three tribal elders who had made the complaint to a Monday morning staff meeting, but two of them didn't come. Neither Moses nor God cared for that, and God opened up the grounds beneath their people's tents, killing both tribes (God also set fire to 250 Israelite princes who'd made the same complaint). Having been well admonished that Moses was putting himself above the rest of the people with God's permission, a number of surviving Israelites were kind of pissed that Moses and God had killed so many of their fellow people to prove a point. God responded by killing another 14,700 of them with a plague. The complaints stopped. (Numbers 16:1-49)
12) Everything He Did to Job
Oh, Job. Other than a shit-ton of babies, no one had it worse in the Bible than Job, who was a righteous, good-hearted man who believed in God with every fiber in his being — which is when God decides to see how miserable he can make this dude before he gets upset. Note: This is a result of a bet between God and Satan. Also note: The bet is God's idea. He's literally just hanging out with Satan — which is kinda weird when you think about it — when he starting bragging about how awesome Job is. Satan points out that Job's pretty blessed — he's rich, he's got a lot of kids, etc., and he probably wouldn't be quite so thrilled with God if he didn't have that stuff. God downs his bourbon, presumably, and tells Satan he can fuck with Job all he wants. Satan does. He kills all of Job's children and animals, burns down his house, destroys his wealth, and then covers him in boils. Job doesn't not curse God, but he does wish he'd never been born (literally) and begs God to kill him, but no dice. This lasts a long time until finally Job wonders why a just God would be so shitty. This is when God pops up and basically tells him."Shut up, I don't have to explain anything to you." Job, having finally done something wrong, pleads for mercy, and God eventually gives him back animals and children — new ones, because the old ones are still dead. Because of a bet. That God made with Satan. For kicks. (Job 1)
https://io9.gizmodo.com/gods-12-biggest-dick-moves-in-the-old-testament-1522970429
So a guy named Eliseus was traveling to Bethel when a bunch of kids popped up and made fun of him for being bald. That had to suck, and you can't blame Eliseus for being pissed and cursing them to God. But God had Eliseus' back, by which I mean he sent two bears to maul 42 of these kids to death. For making fun of a bald dude. I have to think Eliseus was looking for something along the lines of a spanking, or maybe the poetic justice of having the kids go bald, but nope, God went straight for the bear murder. But on the plus side, that pile of 40+ children's corpses never made fun of anybody again. (4 Kings 2:23-24)
2) Turning Lot's Wife to Salt
Most folks know about the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, two cities of sin God decided to kill everyone in instead of, you know, making them not full of sin. But this was a town that, when two angels were staying at Lot's place, gathered en masse and asked if they could rape them. I repeat: They wanted to rape angels. So they kind of had their destruction coming. Lot and his family were sent from the city before things went down, and Lot's wife looked back, and God turned her into a pillar of salt. It's generally understood that Lot's wife was looking back in a wistful kind of way at her angel-raping hometown, but the fact is there's nothing in the Bible to suggest this. Nor was Lot's family warned about looking back. Maybe Lot's wife wanted to see Sodom and Gomorrah get what was coming to it. Maybe she was thinking wistfully of the things she had to leave behind. Maybe she wondered if she left the oven on. We'll never know, because God turned her into seasoning for breaking a rule she didn't know existed. (Genesis 19:26)
4) Trying to Kill Moses
In terms of people who God likes, you'd think Moses would be pretty high up on the list, right? I mean, God appointed him to lead the Jews out of Egypt, parted the Red Sea for him, and even picked him to receive the 10 Commandments, right? Yet this didn't stop God from trying to kill Moses when he ran into him at "a lodging place." There is literally no explanation given in the Bible for God's decision to murder one of his chief supporters. The line is "At a lodging place on the way, the Lord met Moses and was about to kill him." The only sensible explanation for this is that God was drunk out of his mind and looking for a bar fight, and you better hope that's correct because the alternative is that God's a psychopath. How was God stopped from murdering his #1 fan? "But [Moses' wife] Zipporah took a flint knife, cut off her son's foreskin and touched Moses' feet with it ... So the Lord let him alone." Either the sight of a very unexpected circumcision sobered God up quickly, or he didn't want to touch a dude who just touched a severed foreskin. Still, it's Moses' son who's the real victim here. (Exodus 4:24-26)
5) Committing So Much Genocide
God has killed so many people, you guys. Okay, I mean technically, God has killed everyone if you subscribe to Judeo-Christian thought, but I'm not talking about indirect methods, I'm talking about God murdering countless people in horrible ways simply because he's pissed off. God drowning every single person on the planet besides Noah and his family is pretty well known, but he also helped the Israelites murder everyone in Jericho, Heshbon, Bashan and many more, usually killing women, children and animals at the same time. Hell, God once helped some Israelites kill 500,000 other Israelites. God's crazy.
6) Ordering His Underlings to Kill Their Own Children
God is obviously good at big picture dickishness, but he also took the time to be a dick on a more personal level. Abraham was another devout man who God decided to fuck with, apparently because he knew he could. God ordered him to sacrifice his son to God (God was a fan of human sacrifice at the time). We know Abraham loved his son, so he was probably kind of upset with this, but hey, God's God, right? So Abraham tricked his unsuspecting son up a mountain onto a sacrificial altar and prepared to murder him. This story actually has a happy ending, in that right before Abraham drove a knife into his son's throat, God yelled "Psyche!" and told him it was only a test. And then Abraham received some blessings after that for being willing to kill his own child at God's whim. And all it took was the dread of being forced to kill his own child on behalf of his angry deity and, presumably, a shit-ton of awkward family dinners for the rest of his life. Abraham got off better than Jephthah, who had to follow through with murdering his daughter (burning her alive, specifically) in order to get on God's good side before battling the Ammonites. (Genesis 22:1-12)
7) Killing Egyptian Babies
Let's be completely up front: The Egyptians and the Jews did not get along. According to the Bible, the Egyptians enslaved the Jews, but the Jews had God on their side, if you kind of ignore God letting his people be enslaved in the first place. Rather getting his worshippers the hell out of there, God wanted to show those damned Egyptians what for, releasing 10 plagues that began with turning the river Nile into pure blood, and ending with the slaughter of the first-born of every single Egyptian man and animal. Now, I suppose it's possible that some, or even most of these first-born were adults who were shitty to the Israelites. But some of them had to be babies who didn't even have the time to persecute the Jews yet. And what the hell did the animals do to the Jews to get caught up in this nightmare? Were there proto-Nazi cows running around who needed to be punished for their transgressions against the chosen people? And you realize there were cats in Egypt, right? Cats who had first-born? God killed kittens. (Numbers 16:41-49)
8) Killing a Dude for Not Making More Babies
So you're a dude named Onan and you have a brother named Er. God does not care for Er, and kills him. Standard God operating procedure. Then things gets weird. Onan's dad orders Onan to have sex with Er's wife — not marry, by the way, just have sex with. This is actually pretty awkward for Onan, sleeping with his sister-in-law, and rather than give her any more kids (she had two with Er already) he pulls out. God is so infuriated that Onan did not fuck his sister-in-law to completion that he kills him, too. Now, you could argue that God demands that intercourse be used specifically for procreation, but given how much God loves killing babies and children, I don't think his motives here are exceptionally pure. (Genesis 38:1-10)
9) Helping Samson Murder People to Pay Off a Bet
More evidence that God is possibly a low-level mobster: When his pal Samson got married, he was given 30 friends, and he posed them (a completely insane) riddle. Then he made a bet that if they could solve it in a week, Samson would give them all new clothes, but if they couldn't they would give Samson 30 pairs of new clothes. Well, Samson's wife wheedled the answer out of him and then told these dudes, at which point an angry Samson had to pay up. And here's where God comes in — literally, into Samson, giving him the power to murder 30 random people for their clothes. Only a true friend would help you commit mass murder to settle a completely stupid bet. (Judges 14:1-19)
11) Killing People for Complaining About God Killing Them
To be fair, after God freed the Israelites from Egyptian slavery, they were extraordinarily bitchy about not instantly being in a land of milk and honey. It got so bad that God was ready to kill all of them and let Moses start the Jews over, although Moses managed to talk him out of it. But one of their more sensible complaints was that Moses was lording himself over the rest of them, which was probably true, seeing as God had given him the 10 Commandments and all that. So Moses summoned the three tribal elders who had made the complaint to a Monday morning staff meeting, but two of them didn't come. Neither Moses nor God cared for that, and God opened up the grounds beneath their people's tents, killing both tribes (God also set fire to 250 Israelite princes who'd made the same complaint). Having been well admonished that Moses was putting himself above the rest of the people with God's permission, a number of surviving Israelites were kind of pissed that Moses and God had killed so many of their fellow people to prove a point. God responded by killing another 14,700 of them with a plague. The complaints stopped. (Numbers 16:1-49)
12) Everything He Did to Job
Oh, Job. Other than a shit-ton of babies, no one had it worse in the Bible than Job, who was a righteous, good-hearted man who believed in God with every fiber in his being — which is when God decides to see how miserable he can make this dude before he gets upset. Note: This is a result of a bet between God and Satan. Also note: The bet is God's idea. He's literally just hanging out with Satan — which is kinda weird when you think about it — when he starting bragging about how awesome Job is. Satan points out that Job's pretty blessed — he's rich, he's got a lot of kids, etc., and he probably wouldn't be quite so thrilled with God if he didn't have that stuff. God downs his bourbon, presumably, and tells Satan he can fuck with Job all he wants. Satan does. He kills all of Job's children and animals, burns down his house, destroys his wealth, and then covers him in boils. Job doesn't not curse God, but he does wish he'd never been born (literally) and begs God to kill him, but no dice. This lasts a long time until finally Job wonders why a just God would be so shitty. This is when God pops up and basically tells him."Shut up, I don't have to explain anything to you." Job, having finally done something wrong, pleads for mercy, and God eventually gives him back animals and children — new ones, because the old ones are still dead. Because of a bet. That God made with Satan. For kicks. (Job 1)
https://io9.gizmodo.com/gods-12-biggest-dick-moves-in-the-old-testament-1522970429
More comprehensive list of Jehovah Wick's kill list:
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Examples_of_God_personally_killing_people
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Amaris
Guest
Indeed. The OT god does like to kill. A lot. For the strangest reasons.
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