Should Tyler be charged with Dr. Culber's murder?

[Agony_Boothb]

I feel sorry for Tyler. He is literally the amalgam of two beings, one willing and one violated and he literally had two distinct personalities. Even though he was physically tyler when he killed Culber, mentally he was Voq. I don't think that Tyler can be held culpable for something that he wasn't conscious of doing. I think Saru was right in his decision to show Tyler compassion, it was a decision that i could see Picard or Janeway making.

To that end, do I think Tyler should remain on the ship? No i don't. As much as I agree with the sentiment expressed in the episode that the way tyler is treated will define who he becomes, he needs to define for himself who he is. Discovery is not the place for him to do that for a variety of reasons. My hope is that the end of the season will see Tyler being admitted to a psychiatic facility, where he can hopefully get the help he needs.

 

[CaptainMurdock]

He better hope Dr. Tristan Adams doesn't get his hands on him.

 

[Dantrek]

No he shouldnt be charged, he should be given an award. That actor who played Dr. Culber was horrible. I am glad they got rid of his character.

 

[Longinus]

1: You think regeneration ( which is cloning) and Rejuvenation (which is not) are the same thing. Dead is dead, the wave was not magic ( In trek anyhow) it can create new cells based off the old, nothing sid it used magic to bring them back to life. it cloned new cells, this is what was said on screen.

There is no such definition. Regeneration can occur even in single celled organisms.

2: They are, what are you without the events that made you? Maybe you mean brain and not mind, once more those are not the same thing.

Do you think people suffering from amnesia no longer have a mind?

 

[Longinus]

This same poster had no issue with spock coming back to life

It is a stretch, sure, but ultimately a body is made of matter, it is a machine. It is fundamentally impossible that broken things could be fixed, albeit the method here is certainly questionable.

 

[Longinus]

This is not multiple personality disorder. I went and re-watched it, they are pretty clear. This is the individual Ash Tyler, and the Individual Voq, sharing some genetic / physical amalgamation of a body and brain.

They don't explain it properly at all. Sure, either of our interpretations could be the intended one, but I choose one which doesn't assume that Klingons can transfer souls with carving knives. Because say what you want, that is no longer scifi, it is flat out magic.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

They don't explain it properly at all. Sure, either of our interpretations could be the intended one, but I choose one which doesn't assume that Klingons can transfer souls with carving knives. Because say what you want, that is no longer scifi, it is flat out magic.

Well they certainly don't explain it well but they were pretty clear about the intent.

Im not going to make any assumptions kn the science behind making frankensteins monster, that's their job.

But no matter how poorly explained I'm pretty sure they intend voq and tyler to be two different people. And it isn't soul transferring, it was dna, genetics and physical alteration.

 

[Longinus]

Well they certainly don't explain it well but they were pretty clear about the intent.

Different personalities certainly. Not necessarily different people.

But no matter how poorly explained I'm pretty sure they intend voq and tyler to be two different people. And it isn't soul transferring, it was dna, genetics and physical alteration.

The methods described cannot achieve the result you assume. It would be magic. It is like a saying that you could make a ship go FTL by paddling really hard. It is no longer scifi. (Granted, they have the spore drive too...)

 

[Tuvix5675]

All I can think of is the episode "Dax" when Jadzia Dax was on trial for something Curzon Dax was accused of (but ultimately didn't do). I think of AshVoq was fully mentally Voq when he killed Culber, then he shouldn't be charged if Voq has been expunged from his system.

If any Voq remains, then it becomes murkier.

If the Ash personality murdered Culber, then he should definitely be charged. It looks like there was at least some Voq in AshVoq when Culber was murdered... so it's either murky or Voq has to be mentally separated from Ash.

In the Dax episode, the trill was being held responsible for the actions of the host. Here, I'm suggesting we hold the host responsible for his actions. Many of you are suggesting it was Voq that killed Culber, Voq as a submerged personality that temporarily overcame the Tyler personality that had been in control seconds earlier. But the "person" who killed Dr. Culber was an amalgam of both Tyler/Voq. The Tyler part could have tried to stop the action but didn't, so is partly an accomplice.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

Different personalities certainly. Not necessarily different people.


The methods described cannot achieve the result you assume. It would be magic.

Its science fiction. Not science reality. I'm not assuming anything. They write the show and that's what they put in it.

You're assuming that since it can't be done in reality, it cannot be done in science fiction.

You keep saying I'm assuming, I'm just going off what the show says the show did.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

In the Dax episode, the trill was being held responsible for the actions of the host. Here, I'm suggesting we hold the host responsible for his actions. Many of you are suggesting it was Voq that killed Culber, Voq as a submerged personality that temporarily overcame the Tyler personality that had been in control seconds earlier. But the "person" who killed Dr. Culber was an amalgam of both Tyler/Voq. The Tyler part could have tried to stop the action but didn't, so is partly an accomplice.

A personality is a set of characteristics a person has. Voq and tyler aren't simply personalities. They are different people.

 

[Longinus]

Its science fiction. Not science reality. I'm not assuming anything. They write the show and that's what they put in it.

You're assuming that since it can't be done in reality, it cannot be done in science fiction.

You keep saying I'm assuming, I'm just going off what the show says the show did.

You're assuming. Nothing that happens in the show reqyires them to be two separate people, only pesonalities. And the confused state in which Tyvoq enters when the personalities start to merge fits the latter better.

Furtermore in scifi things should be even somewhat plausible. Surgically transferring souls is magic.

 

[Longinus]

A personality is a set of characteristics a person has. Voq and tyler aren't simply personalities. They are different people.

There is no reason to assume that they're literally two different people. Language like 'he was a completely different person' is used with real life personality changes caused by trauma too. It doesn't mean literally different person.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

You're assuming. Nothing that happens in the show reqyires them to be two separate people, only pesonalities. And the confused state in which Tyvoq enters when the personalities start to merge fits the latter better.

Furtermore in scifi things should be even somewhat plausible. Surgically transferring souls is magic.

There is no reason to assume that they're literally two different people. Language like 'he was a completely different person' is used with real life personality changes caused by trauma too. It doesn't mean literally different person.

I think they established that pretty clear in the episode. I'm not assuming anything.

 

[INACTIVEUSS Einstein]

The way it was presented in the show was this:

1). - Voq is surgically made almost human, by grinding down bones, replacing marrow, etc

2). - The personality of a dead (?) Starfleet officer is laid over his (or was he just ficitonal?)

3). - L'Rell's procedure creates a new composite personality with Ash Tyler's the dominant

The DSC crew accept him, even knowing this, which is remarkably progressive of them, considering the sorts of prejudices we have seen in the war, with like prisoners being called scum, Burnham being treated as a pariah, etc. More arbitrariness?

In some philosophical thought, a person is not a constant identity from birth to death, but rather a series of new identities born and dying every moment - we after all, have all our cells replaced every once in a while - out personalities change, etc.

Under this interpretation, you could make a case that Ash Tyler isn't Voq, even though biologically, he is. But it raises a lot of ethical issues, like where they draw this distinction.

 

[Longinus]

To those people who think Voq personality and Tyler personality are two different people: what about those moments he is confused about his identity, is he some third person then?

 

[Longinus]

@USS Einstein our braincells are not replaced though, they even mostly consist of the same exact atoms throughout our lives.

 

[ralph]

Even if Tyler might not have been guilty, the problem that we have is that it no longer makes sense he remain on board, in other words, nobody can truly trust him.
I don´t know nothing about final season, but I think he will not be in season 2.

 

[Longinus]

Even if Tyler might not have been guilty, the problem that we have is that it no longer makes sense he remain on board, in other words, nobody can truly trust him.
I don´t know nothing about final season, but I think he will not be in season 2.

Obviously he absolutely shouldn't continue to serve. But they just knowingly made a murderous tyrant a captain of a starship, so who knows. Nothing in this series makes any sense.

 

[Spot261]

There was no murder. A Klingon officer on active service engaged in a covert operation killed a Starfleet one also on active service, during a war between their respective powers.