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Should Tyler be charged with Dr. Culber's murder?

Should Tyler be charged with Dr. Culber's murder?

  • Yes

    Votes: 27 37.5%
  • No

    Votes: 45 62.5%

  • Total voters
    72
Hmmm. I have to rewatch the episode. Was Tyler dead dead? Were any of his synapses reanimated when whatever was left of him was put onto Voq? If the personality was intact, Tyler couldn't have been that far dead.

But, if Tyler was dead dead as in dead, then Voq is a crazy guy who looks like Tyler and has a Napoleon Complex.

Who is this person genetically?

Better question: if Voq's synapses were eliminated by L'Rell, then who's the person living right now? Is he some kind of lobotomized Pseudo-Tyler? (serious question)
 
No Voq is dead, The Ash persona is not, they did not just brainwash him, they stuck another persons mind in his head.
He is only 'dead' in poetic sense. He was brainwashed and implanted with false memories, he's not really dead, only transformed. People can go through all sort of amnesias or personality changes due mental disorders or brain injuries. The resulting personalities are not really separate people.
 
People, the poll is asking: Should Tyler be charged with Dr. Culber's murder?
It's not asking if he is actually guilty. Yes, he should be charged. He was there, his body (whoever was in charge of it) was responsible for the actual murder. At the very least he should be charged. Let the prosecutors then go ahead and prove that he is guilty (and defense will counter with possibly valid response that he was not himself).
But to not even charge him, to automatically just assume, meh, he is probably not guilty, is very irresponsible.
 
In Search for Spock? He was not a copy. He was rejuvenated original Spock suffering from amnesia.

No, he was a dead body cloned. Dead cells are not "rejuvenated". He never did recover all the originals memories.

He is only 'dead' in poetic sense. He was brainwashed and implanted with false memories, he's not really dead, only transformed. People can go through all sort of amnesias or personality changes due mental disorders or brain injuries. The resulting personalities are not really separate people.

He is dead in the brain dead sense. His persona was purged. This was two people, this was not Voq Making someone up with a damaged mind, they took the real tyler and forced his memories, his personality into another body. To be frank, we are not sure it was not Ashes brain to start with, we are pretty sure it was Ashes skin.
 
Hmmm. I have to rewatch the episode. Was Tyler dead dead? Were any of his synapses reanimated when whatever was left of him was put onto Voq? If the personality was intact, Tyler couldn't have been that far dead.

But, if Tyler was dead dead as in dead, then Voq is a crazy guy who looks like Tyler and has a Napoleon Complex.

Who is this person genetically?

Better question: if Voq's synapses were eliminated by L'Rell, then who's the person living right now? Is he some kind of lobotomized Pseudo-Tyler? (serious question)

This is what everyone, including Tyler is trying to figure out. From what was said, the body is both Voq and parts of Tyler ( his skin for sure) and the brain may or may not be human. They played frankenstien with two bodies from what we have heard. Any scars where thought to be from torture.

This is a transhumanist question. If you are just your memories, then who is the real you? They more or less pulled a mind upload and so if it is a copy, does that make it less real?
 
Based solely on what I know now, no.

Its hard to be objective about two people who only exist in a fictional universe but as I understand things, Voq killed Culber, tyler did not.
 
No, he was a dead body cloned. Dead cells are not "rejuvenated". He never did recover all the originals memories.
What? No. Cloned how?

He is dead in the brain dead sense.
No. There is only one brain, that brain is not braindead.

His persona was purged. This was two people, this was not Voq Making someone up with a damaged mind, they took the real tyler and forced his memories, his personality into another body.
It is not two people. Sure, those memories were copied from a real person, but that doesn't really matter.

To be frank, we are not sure it was not Ashes brain to start with, we are pretty sure it was Ashes skin.
Of course it is Voq's brain. If it wasn't there would have been zero reason for the crazy plastic surgery. It's is Voq, surgically altered to look like Tyler and planted with false memories.

You're overcomplicating this, it is surgically induced multiple personality disorder.
 
What? No. Cloned how?


No. There is only one brain, that brain is not braindead.


It is not two people. Sure, those memories were copied from a real person, but that doesn't really matter.


Of course it is Voq's brain. If it wasn't there would have been zero reason for the crazy plastic surgery. It's is Voq, surgically altered to look like Tyler and planted with false memories.

You're overcomplicating this, it is surgically induced multiple personality disorder.

I wouldn't say it's surgically induced multiple personality disorder. I mean, a person can change their personality and adopt new ones. This was an actual person, shoved into the brain of a different person.

It isn't voq with two personalities, at least not from the impression I got from their explanation.
 
I wouldn't say it's surgically induced multiple personality disorder. I mean, a person can change their personality and adopt new ones. This was an actual person, shoved into the brain of a different person.

It isn't voq with two personalities, at least not from the impression I got from their explanation.
There is no reason to assume any sort of 'soul swapping' magic going on. It is described as brain surgery. There are not somehow two separate 'souls' inhabiting one brain any more than there would be in the case of normal multiple personality disorder. One brain, one person.
 
The man was very deeply brutalised and subject to severe, invasive physical and mental conditioning. The man was virtually dismembered in ways that are beyond imagining and wasn't rehabilitated or treated after the experience.

So I'd institutionalise him on the basis of some kind of insanity judgement. For me it's quite clear cut.
 
There is no reason to assume any sort of 'soul swapping' magic going on. It is described as brain surgery. There are not somehow two separate 'souls' inhabiting one brain any more than there would be in the case of normal multiple personality disorder. One brain, one person.
Not asusming anything. Doing my best to interpret a scenario based on relatively little information on a futuristic scifi procedure.

Multuple personality disorder often exists to protect people from trauma. A sexual abuse victim may develop different personalities based on different ages when they were abused, to compartmenatlize memories so they don't have to deal. But they are that person, the personalities are themselves, in a sort of tragic way.

I thought. Though poorly explained, that they took tyler via his dna and shoved him an Voq together.

Ash and voq aren't the same personality, one doesn't exist within the other. They were seperate people "allegedly" shoved into the same brain.
 
Ooh, this is a legal question! Should Tyler be charged? Let's dive in...

To begin with, we don't really know very much about Federation law, or (more pertinently) Starfleet law, which is to say whatever futuristic permutation of the UCMJ may exist. All we can do is speculate based on current law. It's important to note, however, that civilian law is different from law that applies to service members; the latter gives defendants fewer rights.

On the one hand, I can see why Tyler should be charged. Culber was murdered in cold blood, and it was clearly Tyler (at least his body) who did it. Of course at trial he'd be able to bring the defense that he wasn't in control of that body's actions, and whether this was true would be a question of fact for the court to determine. If he were acquitted on that basis it would presumably be some SF-nal analog of "not guilty by reason of insanity," so even if not technically guilty it would be important to determine whether any remnant of the Voq personality remained. If not he'd be a free man, but if so he'd presumably be detained for treatment until that determination could be made with assurance.

On the other hand, I can also see why Tyler should not be charged. In the real world the state (and the military) always has prosecutorial discretion to avoid pressing charges in a case that's likely to lose, or in which winning wouldn't serve the interests of justice. In the Starfleet context, presumably Saru as the current commanding officer is in a position to determine how to exercise that discretion. It appears from the conversation we saw that he's inclined not to hold Tyler responsible for his actions, but doesn't trust him entirely (hence the detention bracelet). In a civilian context Tyler could probably argue "either charge me or let me go," but this is Starfleet, and UFP security issues are involved. While the conversation didn't frame things in legal terms, then, it would seem that Saru is still holding Tyler under (loose) detention, reserving the right to make a final decision about charges until he can determine whether any trace of Voq is still riding shotgun and trying to grab the steering wheel. It also makes sense to hold at least the possibility of charges over Tyler's head at the moment, if only as an incentive to get him to plumb Voq's memories and share any relevant intel he might possess.

So that's the legal context. Above and beyond it, of course, there are ethical and philosophical questions...

Yes. ... But apparently Disco folks are OK with this and willing to pretend that this brainwashed murderous Klingon is actually the person in whose murder he participated in and whose skin he stole.
Voq has been brainwashed to think he is Ash Tyler. ... Original Tyler is dead. Voq is not the same person any more than a person suffering from delusion that they're Napoleon is the real Napoleon.
You seem to have strong opinions about this. In a real-world context (a Manchurian Candidate kind of situation), you'd probably be correct. But it's worth recognizing that despite much of what we know about how minds work in the real world, in the Star Trek universe Cartesian mind-body dualism is very much a thing. In story after story we've seen that one's consciousness is the real source of identity, regardless of what meat suit (or other container) it happens to occupy at the time.

In that context, if Tyler's personality was implanted in the (altered) body that once also housed Voq, and is now controlling that body... well, he is Tyler, and Tyler is him. He can't be held responsible for what Voq's mind did, regardless of what body it used at the time.

In Search for Spock? He was not a copy. He was rejuvenated original Spock suffering from amnesia.
How did you get that impression? The Spock in STIII was clearly a new body grown from scratch, not one "rejuvenated" from the original. Spock's consciousness (minus a few memories) was subsequently implanted therein. From that point on, for all intents and purposes it was Spock. (More dualism at work.)
 
Multuple personality disorder often exists to protect people from trauma. A sexual abuse victim may develop different personalities based on different ages when they were abused, to compartmenatlize memories so they don't have to deal. But they are that person, the personalities are themselves, in a sort of tragic way.
And this is basically the same thing. They surgically prodded the brain to produce a similar state.

I thought. Though poorly explained, that they took tyler via his dna and shoved him an Voq together.
DNA doesn't contain memories.

Ash and voq aren't the same personality, one doesn't exist within the other. They were seperate people "allegedly" shoved into the same brain.
They aren't the same personality, because it is multiple personality disorder. They're the same person though, because there is only one brain.
 
What? No. Cloned how?

Plot device, how did it build a planet? But, any cells killed by that much radiation that fast, are not gonna be "healed"

No. There is only one brain, that brain is not braindead.

And two brain patterns. One is dead, just as would happen with brain death

It is not two people. Sure, those memories were copied from a real person, but that doesn't really matter.

We have been told, it is in fact two people.

Of course it is Voq's brain. If it wasn't there would have been zero reason for the crazy plastic surgery. It's is Voq, surgically altered to look like Tyler and planted with false memories.

You're overcomplicating this, it is surgically induced multiple personality disorder.

We have been told it was Tyler's skin it seems. I know trek is funkly, but klingon and human brains will not look the same. They turned Voq's heart into a human one, seemed to have transplanted human organs. So eh who knows.
 
And this is basically the same thing. They surgically prodded the brain to produce a similar state.


DNA doesn't contain memories.


They aren't the same personality, because it is multiple personality disorder. They're the same person though, because there is only one brain.

The idea that dna doed or doesn't contain memories I dont think is completely settled. I believe that some scientists believe memories are inheritable.

A person, a consciousness with multiple personalities is one person, with personalities that live within them. I was perhaps clumsy in my wording but, voq is not a person in which ash tyler is a personality, ash tyler is not a persom in which voq is a personality. Neither being had either personality. The insinuation is that through poorly explained future science magic, the seperate mind and consciousness that is ash, was shoved into the physically altered brain that formerly belonged to voq and only voq.

Ash. Is not a personality. Voq didn't make ash up,
 
You seem to have strong opinions about this. In a real-world context (a Manchurian Candidate kind of situation), you'd probably be correct. But it's worth recognizing that despite much of what we know about how minds work in the real world, in the Star Trek universe Cartesian mind-body dualism is very much a thing. In story after story we've seen that one's consciousness is the real source of identity, regardless of what meat suit (or other container) it happens to occupy at the time.
There have been some magical mind swaps in trek, but it has usually been some sort of super alien bullshit. This is Klingons with carving knives. It is already strains credulity that they could achieve what is depicted in the episode without assuming that it is some sort of magical soul swap.

How did you get that impression? The Spock in STIII was clearly a new body grown from scratch, not one "rejuvenated" from the original. Spock's consciousness (minus a few memories) was subsequently implanted therein. From that point on, for all intents and purposes it was Spock. (More dualism at work.)
Why would a completely new body magically appear and where did the dead body go in that case? No, it was the same body rejuvenated. David Marcus says: "Genesis wave, his cells could have been regenerated."
 
A person, a consciousness with multiple personalities is one person, with personalities that live within them.
Yes. Exactly like is the case here.

I was perhaps clumsy in my wording but, voq is not a person in which ash tyler is a personality,
Yesh he is. That there also was a separate real Ash Tyler doesn't change that.

Ash. Is not a personality. Voq didn't make ash up,
Ash is a personality, Voq did not make him up, it was artificially induced. The end result is the same though.
 
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