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Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x12 - "Vaulting Ambition"

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This will be a short one. I gave it an 8.5, not because I didn't like it enough to give it a 9 or a 10, but because I'm finally beginning to own to the fact that this is truly not Star Trek as I've known it and loved it all my life. It's not. It's absolutely not.

That said, it's an excellent story and show. One to be taken and evaluated in its own right. It's just that I'm not there yet. Some day soon, depending on where the story goes, I'll be able to grade it as a Star Trek series.

I'm still very interested in Lorca (my favorite character on the show) and anticipating where they take him. Glad to see Michelle Yeoh back, too! Eagerly anticipating tomorrow's show.
 
One reservation I have with the episode is that almost all the guest cast with lines were men. It could be evidence that they've relaxed their grip already and the old sexist casting issues have started bleeding back in almost immediately .

Hopefully it's just a blip. It's fine to have room full of men occasionally and it's fine to have a room full of women occasionally. I suppose history has taught me that the former happens a lot and the latter almost never so there is a degree of paranoia involved .
 
This will be a short one. I gave it an 8.5, not because I didn't like it enough to give it a 9 or a 10, but because I'm finally beginning to own to the fact that this is truly not Star Trek as I've known it and loved it all my life. It's not. It's absolutely not.

That said, it's an excellent story and show. One to be taken and evaluated in its own right. It's just that I'm not there yet. Some day soon, depending on where the story goes, I'll be able to grade it as a Star Trek series.
See now, I would give it the higher scores based on that exact same logic.

I realized before it aired it wasn’t going to be what I wanted it to be so I’ve tried to watch it on its own terms and not as something it isn’t and that’s allowed me to be able to enjoy it.
 
See now, I would give it the higher scores based on that exact same logic.

I realized before it aired it wasn’t going to be what I wanted it to be so I’ve tried to watch it on its own terms and not as something it isn’t and that’s allowed me to be able to enjoy it.

I’m trying to get where you are, but there was a bit of self-deception involved. I’m getting over it. But by bit. Meanwhile, I’m enjoying the heck of the show.
 
Yeah, I will just leave the whole 'eating' comment alone. Though I will say I don't think Voq is a major character & there have been other references to Klingon characters eating humanoids (or parts of them). At least Voq was starving.

OK, I cannot leave it.

1. Spock & Uhura.
2. Data & Tasha.
3. Riker & Troi.
4. Troi & Worf.
5. Picard & Crusher.
6. Riker & Ro.
8. O'Brien & Keiko.
7. J. Dax & Worf.
8. Kira & Odo.
9. Bashir & Leeta
10. Bashir & E. Dax
11. Rom & Leeta
12. Sisko & Yates
13. Tom & B'Elanna
14. Neelix & Kes
15. Seven & Chakotay
16. Tripp & T'Pol
17. Stamets & Culber

MU hookups don't count (sorry Hoshi). Did I miss one?

You forgot the two “couples” that actually had chemistry onscreen even if they weren’t written as legit “romantic” duos (for reasons understood by most fans):

Archer & T’Pol
Kira & Dukat
 
This will be a short one. I gave it an 8.5, not because I didn't like it enough to give it a 9 or a 10, but because I'm finally beginning to own to the fact that this is truly not Star Trek as I've known it and loved it all my life. It's not. It's absolutely not.

That said, it's an excellent story and show. One to be taken and evaluated in its own right. It's just that I'm not there yet. Some day soon, depending on where the story goes, I'll be able to grade it as a Star Trek series.

I'm still very interested in Lorca (my favorite character on the show) and anticipating where they take him. Glad to see Michelle Yeoh back, too! Eagerly anticipating tomorrow's show.

The only way Discovery isn't Star Trek "as you've known and loved it" is if the only Star Trek you've ever watched is TOS and TNG, because it's completely in sync with DS9, VGR, and ENT in terms of tone and narrative approach.
 
The only way Discovery isn't Star Trek "as you've known and loved it" is if the only Star Trek you've ever watched is TOS and TNG, because it's completely in sync with DS9, VGR, and ENT in terms of tone and narrative approach.

No. Every version of Trek has had character development *apart from plot*. Not Discovery.
 
One reservation I have with the episode is that almost all the guest cast with lines were men. It could be evidence that they've relaxed their grip already and the old sexist casting issues have started bleeding back in almost immediately .

Hopefully it's just a blip. It's fine to have room full of men occasionally and it's fine to have a room full of women occasionally. I suppose history has taught me that the former happens a lot and the latter almost never so there is a degree of paranoia involved .

The emperor of the entire Terran Empire is a female guest character and had a tremendous amount of screen time and scenery to chew.

The primary protagonist of the episode was Burnham.

Tilly's plan saved Stamets.

L'Rell was instrumental and set up the mystery of what happens next with Tyler.

I think everything was ok in this dimension. :shrug:
 
No. Every version of Trek has had character development *apart from plot*. Not Discovery.

Hardly any character in any prior iteration of Star Trek (except the TOS movies) ever truly grew and changed. We'd learn about their background, yes. We'd see them make difficult decisions or go through difficult things within the confines of an episode, yes. But they hardly ever truly grew.

So far don't agree with this at all.
 
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Hardly any character in any prior iteration of Star Trek (except the TOS movies) ever truly grew and changed. We'd learn about their background, yes. We'd see them make difficult decisions or go through difficult things within the confines of an episode, yes. But they hardly ever truly grew.

So far don't agree with this at all.

Data. O'Brien. Bashir. Picard. Spock, Kirk (before the movies). Dukat. Quark. Odo. Seven. Torres. T'Pol. Archer. Saru.

All different characters in their earliest appearances, but gradually changed throughout a number of episodes into their latest iterations.
 
No....respectfully (and I mean that)...no fucking way. I love Star Trek...no other entertainment form even comes close. But the literal hallmark of Star Trek is "safe play" through lack of change or risk. I'm talking about substantive changes in characters brought about by their experiences...not simply learning more about who they always were. There's a difference there. Also, gradual change over 7 years for a few characters isn't really character growth...it's just the actors becoming more comfortable with the role and the relationships with other characters.

Data....no....a gradual "loosening" as he bumbled through "trying to be more human." But nothing substantive changed about Data. Emotion chips don't count...not a development achieved through experience.

O'Brien not in any way. We may have LEARNED more about him, but near zero substantial change or growth.

Bashir- see O'Brien. We learned about him. But very little change of substance. Granted, moreso than with most of the other franchise characters...so maybe this one I "half agree" with! :D

Picard- absolutely not. One of the most ridged, unflinching characters in the entire franchise. Kidnapped by the Borg, assimilated, and forced to murder thousands...? Nah, drink some wine with Robert...back to his command chair in one week. Captured, tortured and broken by the Cardassians? Back to normal next week. And no, I don't count the sudden metamorphosis into an action hero that inexplicably occurs in FC. Honestly, the guy's biggest evolution was supposed to be sitting down for a nice friendly hand of pinochle at the end of a seven-year run? No way. Picard was virtually an unmovable pillar made of iron through the entire run. In fact, every TNG character was.

Spock- virtually unchanged and unwavering until TOS movies (which I conceded to in my post). You can't really count the disappearance of the early on "shouty" Spock (for example) as character growth. That was more "who the hell is this guy" and things that evolved out of that. Also, that's not substantive.

Kirk- see Spock

Dukat- Good stuff here so granted...but a minor character on Star Trek's one outlier show that handled character growth well. Not an example to refute my statement.

Quark- granted

Odo- granted

Seven- see Data and Spock...standard and obligatory "struggles with humanity" character...hardly a risk for the franchise. In fact, it's so cliche it became painful by the time Seven rolled out onto the scene.

Torres- "chilling out a little over 7 years" doesn't count as a significant character growth. It's called "it happens to all of us as we age." Hahaha!

T'Pol- no...but at best see 7, Data, Spock...same character, different show.

Archer- I just did a 100% rewatch on ENT, I never saw anything substantial change in Archer other than he became more of a desperate dick when the Xindi threat hit. Reverted when threat was over. 1+1-1=1

Saru- granted, but is on the show that I'd advocate does this best (on par with DS9), which is my argument to begin with.

Perhaps most accurately, what I'm saying is that Star Trek is generally horrible at demonstrating risky/lasting change or growth with its characters over time. The only real outliers to this are DS9 (but usually with the alien main characters or the secondary cast) and the TOS movies (specifically Kirk and Spock have great arcs). Yes, they may reveal more about a character as time goes on...but that's not the same as the character undertaking a journey. The episodic nature of most Trek properties really prohibited that kind of development.
 
No....respectfully (and I mean that)...no fucking way. I love Star Trek...no other entertainment form even comes close. But the literal hallmark of Star Trek is "safe play" through lack of change or risk. I'm talking about substantive changes in characters brought about by their experiences...not simply learning more about who they always were. There's a difference there. Also, gradual change over 7 years for a few characters isn't really character growth...it's just the actors becoming more comfortable with the role and the relationships with other characters.

COmpltely agree and part of it at least in the TNG era was that the ST business model was to earn a lot of money in the syndication market once they had enough episodes in the can. and one of the things in that market that makes a product more valuable is if it is episodic where the syndicators can air them in any order they want and don't have to air in a certain sequence and a viewer can just watch the episodes on monday and tuesday each week and be fine. Having too much change messes up that model.

So you are right now a lot changed and that was a very intentional choice. DS9 was the one who broke that mold and they had a hard time syndicating that and so went back to the standard episodic model for Voyager and most of enterprise.
 
COmpltely agree and part of it at least in the TNG era was that the ST business model was to earn a lot of money in the syndication market once they had enough episodes in the can. and one of the things in that market that makes a product more valuable is if it is episodic where the syndicators can air them in any order they want and don't have to air in a certain sequence and a viewer can just watch the episodes on monday and tuesday each week and be fine. Having too much change messes up that model.

So you are right now a lot changed and that was a very intentional choice. DS9 was the one who broke that mold and they had a hard time syndicating that and so went back to the standard episodic model for Voyager and most of enterprise.

I think this hits it well. You kind of re-emphasize my point too...I wasn't trying to say that the other Star Treks were just crappy and didn't know how to do this, it was more just a limitation of the format at the time.
 
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