Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x12 - "Vaulting Ambition"

[cultcross]

Another point when considering if the Mirror Universe was a later addition: remember how we all knew that Captain Gorgeau was going to come back when they never recovered her body from the Klingons? And how bizarre it seemed when they closed off that particular possibility with a couple lines of dialog a few episodes later about how the Klingons ate her?

There was a potential explanation for that; originally they planned to sprinkle the flashbacks to the Shenzhou throughout season 1, but then made them a single pilot instead. If they had done the former, it wouldn't have been until probably episode 11 or 12 that Georgiou's death was seen, so the dangling thread wouldn't be obvious until, well, about now. By doing the latter, they left what appeared to be an open door that they didn't need, so they slammed it shut.

I've never bought the s31 theory. The 1031 thing was just Fuller's well documented love of Halloween, and that plus the black badges just never made any sense as indicators of a secret organisation. Plus in Discovery's first outing we see its sister ship is 1030. The other stuff is just people seeing what they want to see (instances of 3 and 1).

While I'm sure that there was a significant change of direction after Fuller left, and some things from early on were certainly ditched (black badges being one of them), the s31 theory just seems to have grown out of the ship's registry number and the generally darker tone.

 

[Tim Thomason]

He was not the real Lorca because he didn't remember things the real Lorca should have. Not merely because he's shady. He also has scars he shouldn't have.

Yeah, the unexplained scars can only mean two things: he's not who he says he is, or he has a secret BDSM fetish. Unfortunately, the show did not go where I wanted it to with the MU revelation.

 

[jaime]

Actually we all pretty much just made it up after Frakes accidentally revealed the mirror universe was coming up. What the actual fan theory was, well, look back at earlier threads - He's definitely section 31! Look at his scars! A triangle and a single line! People swore by that idea.

Hindsight is 20/20.

Hey. I said agoniser. XD

 

[137th Gebirg]

Yeah, the unexplained scars can only mean two things: he's not who he says he is, or he has a secret BDSM fetish. Unfortunately, the show did not go where I wanted it to with the MU revelation.

The scars were a bad misstep - either on the part of the writers in the real world, or on Lorca's part in-universe. If he were to keep his cover as an MU person secret, a quick shot with a dermal regenerator would have made short work of it and nobody would have been the wiser. In short, never should have happened.

 

[jaime]

I kind of hated the whole "he must be from the MU because a *real* Starfleet captain wouldn't act like that" argument, because it seemed awful gatekeeper-y and not allowing for a nuanced, damaged character. But here we are.

Nuanced damaged people don’t exist in Trek for various reasons, at least, not in Starfleet duty regs. Neelix on the other hand....

 

[jaime]

Another point when considering if the Mirror Universe was a later addition: remember how we all knew that Captain Gorgeau was going to come back when they never recovered her body from the Klingons? And how bizarre it seemed when they closed off that particular possibility with a couple lines of dialog a few episodes later about how the Klingons ate her?

I wonder if they originally were going to bring her back, had to scrap that storyline, and then had to come up with some other way to use Michelle Yeoh's contracted episodes.

Well never know for sure unless somebody comes forward about what happened. But I wonder.

Time travel. Everyone goes on about the Voyager staff behind the scenes. They were gonna reset button the whole season, and Burnham was gonna have to give up Ash to undo the battle of the binary stars, Lorca saves the Buran but dies....
I am making thi shit up. But hey. Last few times I did that, I was right.

 

[saladdays]

PU Lorca must have acted similar to MU Lorca at least much of the time, or else he would either have been found out, lost command, etc. My guess is that PU Lorca probably was not the "typical" Star Trek captain either, although we may never truly know one way or another.

 

[jaime]

Was that scene seriously supposed to be titillating at the time? I mean, I was pre-pubescent when the show was in its first run, but even as an adult it does nothing for me.

I don’t think it was tbh. Yoga was a thing, and the show was made in health freak central.
I am about the same age as you and didn’t even find Bev and Deanna that attractive. I think the Grups probably liked them though. I liked Tasha, and later Ro. Tasha is one of a handful of blondes that appealed to young me. I think most of the sexualisation of TNG happened after YouTube was invented...outside of slash anyway.

 

[seigezunt]

It was ... complicated ... as I recall.

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[137th Gebirg]

Nuanced damaged people don’t exist in Trek for various reasons, at least, not in Starfleet duty regs. Neelix on the other hand....

I dunno...most of TNG characters came from either broken homes or dead parents:

• Picard - married to his career; estranged brother; no real family and has problems with kids.
  
• Riker - dead mother from Tholian attack; estranged father.
• Data - "evil twin"/idiot brothers; kind-of estranged/separated "father"; dead mother; tragically failed attempt at creating a daughter.
  
• Geordi - parents both in Starfleet, appeared to be separated/divorced; mother's ship was lost during series.
• Worf - both natural parents dead from Romulan attack; parents' house disgraced thanks to Duras; human brother kind of a dweeb; failed relationship with K'Ehleyr and semi-estranged son he never knew and couldn't really connect with.
• Troi - dead father and sister; overbearing mother; failed (initial) relationship with Riker.
• Beverly Crusher - dead husband.
• Wesley Crusher - dead father.
  
• Yar - estranged sister; dead parents; spent most of her youth avoiding "rape gangs" on her homeworld.

The backstories were there and everyone easily had some damage that could have been exploited for dramatic purposes (and some were). The writers just didn't know how to use them effectively in many cases, either because Roddenberry forbade it or they didn't have the skill. Or both.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ I don't think Geordi's parents were separated. They had different duty assignments, but there's no indication that their marriage was in jeopardy.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Yeah I kind-of had a question mark about that in my head. It's been so long since I've seen the episode and Memory Alpha didn't have details. So he may possibly had been the only one of the senior staff who didn't have some kind of emotional turmoil going on, short of his inability to establish relationships out of the holodeck.

 

[Noname Given]

Nuanced damaged people don’t exist in Trek for various reasons, at least, not in Starfleet duty regs. Neelix on the other hand....

Yeah? I'm sure Captain Edward Jellico and Captain Ben Maxwell might disagree. My issue with 5TNG has always been the 'Utopian' aspect. And the fact that characters like Jellico and Maxwell were looked down on by the 'enlightened' characters.

Hell, to me - watching TNG's "Chain of Command" Riker and the rest DID honestly come across as incompetent:

- Riker was given a direct order to create a 4 shift rotation; but his excuse was "Hey, I talked to my subordinates and they said it would cause problems - so I didn't do it; and I was going to tell you later..." -- Hell in that scene even Picard gave him a look of: "WTF Will he IS your Captain now, not me..."

- Geordi: After the Bridge crew is informed where they are going and what the mission will be, Geordi respponds to Jellico's (surported by Data) wanting to improve ship system efficiency with - "But sir everything's running fine within Starfleet Operational specs.."; and then "But that will mean we have to shutdown Stellar Cartography..." - an d later he tries to get Riker to go to Picard and see if Picard will intervene. But, at least there once Riker saw what Picard was going through; he rightfully walked pout without saying a word and maybe had a bit of sense at that point.

The Ben Maxwell situation was worse in that Maxwell WAS right - but the Federation was willing to "Keep the Peace" no matter what the cost; and the 'Utopian' and 'Caring' Federation sacrificed a competent line officer doing his job, to keep said peace even though Command knew Maxwell was right, and effectively the Cardassian Union was playing the Federation for fools, and the Feds were complicit in that.

I dunno...most of TNG characters came from either broken homes or dead parents:

• Picard - married to his career; estranged brother; no real family and has problems with kids.
  
• Riker - dead mother from Tholian attack; estranged father.
• Data - "evil twin"/idiot brothers; kind-of estranged/separated "father"; dead mother; tragically failed attempt at creating a daughter.
  
• Geordi - parents both in Starfleet, appeared to be separated/divorced; mother's ship was lost during series.
• Worf - both natural parents dead from Romulan attack; parents' house disgraced thanks to Duras; human brother kind of a dweeb; failed relationship with K'Ehleyr and semi-estranged son he never knew and couldn't really connect with.
• Troi - dead father and sister; overbearing mother; failed (initial) relationship with Riker.
• Beverly Crusher - dead husband.
• Wesley Crusher - dead father.
  
• Yar - estranged sister; dead parents; spent most of her youth avoiding "rape gangs" on her homeworld.

The backstories were there and everyone easily had some damage that could have been exploited for dramatic purposes (and some were). The writers just didn't know how to use them effectively in many cases, either because Roddenberry forbade it or they didn't have the skill. Or both.

You forgot that Beverly Crusher became a Doctor because she lived through a horrible plague, and her colony was cut off to the point her Grandmother at the time was using local herbs and plants to help treat victims. (TNG - "The Arsenal of Freedom".)

Miles O'Brien - Veteran of the Fed/Cardassian War; and that left him with some deep psychological scars; the extent of which he didn't realize until he was working with Cardassians in TNG - "The Wounded".

 

[jaime]

I dunno...most of TNG characters came from either broken homes or dead parents:

• Picard - married to his career; estranged brother; no real family and has problems with kids.
  
• Riker - dead mother from Tholian attack; estranged father.
• Data - "evil twin"/idiot brothers; kind-of estranged/separated "father"; dead mother; tragically failed attempt at creating a daughter.
  
• Geordi - parents both in Starfleet, appeared to be separated/divorced; mother's ship was lost during series.
• Worf - both natural parents dead from Romulan attack; parents' house disgraced thanks to Duras; human brother kind of a dweeb; failed relationship with K'Ehleyr and semi-estranged son he never knew and couldn't really connect with.
• Troi - dead father and sister; overbearing mother; failed (initial) relationship with Riker.
• Beverly Crusher - dead husband.
• Wesley Crusher - dead father.
  
• Yar - estranged sister; dead parents; spent most of her youth avoiding "rape gangs" on her homeworld.

The backstories were there and everyone easily had some damage that could have been exploited for dramatic purposes (and some were). The writers just didn't know how to use them effectively in many cases, either because Roddenberry forbade it or they didn't have the skill. Or both.

None of them were damaged by their experiences though. Which was one of Roddenberrys ideals. I was not making a slight. Trek just carries the right stuff trope...spacemen are tough because space kills.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

@Noname Given - Ben Maxwell was NOT right. I don't care what the Cardassians were doing - they did not deserve to have their ships attacked and destroyed in cold blood. Maxwell was a psycho, nothing more.

Let's say that somebody finds out that their next door neighbor is a terrorist, and so they go and blow up the guy's house. Even if the neighbor IS a terrorist, that doesn't make it right. Same story here.

 

[jaime]

yeah? I'm sure Captain Edward Jellico and Captain Ben Maxwell might disagree. My issue with TNG has always been the 'Utopian' aspect. And the fact that characters like Jellico and Maxwell were looked down on by the 'enlightened' characters.

Hell, to me - watching TNG's "Chain of Command" Riker and the rest DID honestly come across as incompetent:

- Riker was given a direct order to create a 4 shift rotation; but his excuse was "Hey, I talked to my subordinates and they said it would cause problems - so I didn't do it; and I was going to tell you later..." -- Hell in that scene even Picard gave him a look of: "WTF Will he IS your Captain now, not me..."

- Geordi: After the Bridge crew is informed where they are going and what the mission will be, Geordi respponds to Jellico's (surported by Data) wanting to improve ship system efficiency with - "But sir everything's running fine within Starfleet Operational specs.."; and then "But that will mean we have to shutdown Stellar Cartography..." - an d later he tries to get Riker to go to Picard and see if Picard will intervene. But, at least there once Riker saw what Picard was going through; he rightfully walked pout without saying a word and maybe had a bit of sense at that point.

The Ben Maxwell situation was worse in that Maxwell WAS right - but the Federation was willing to "Keep the Peace" no matter what the cost; and the 'Utopian' and 'Caring' Federation sacrificed a competent line officer doing his job, to keep said peace even though Command knew Maxwell was right, and effectively the Cardassian Union was playing the Federation for fools, and the Feds were complicit in that.

I should have specified in the main cast, but yeah. Those two..well..Jelly isn’t damaged, he’s just annoying.

 

[Jadeb]

I was really hoping from the "painted rust" speech that the MU was going to be more complicated than just the original idea of "it's like our universe but they're all a-holes," but it seems not. Still enjoying it, though.

Yeah, much more entertaining than the Klingon war/tardigrade stuff.

 

[plynch]

Ben Sisko was nuanced, I think. But not morally ambiguous ('cept that one time). I feel like I lost Lorca too for the reasons others have mentioned. "Oh well , a mirror dude, that explains it."

Is there ANY chance PU Lorca still exists so the character may continue in S2?

 

[Noname Given]

@Noname Given - Ben Maxwell was NOT right. I don't care what the Cardassians were doing - they did not deserve to have their ships attacked and destroyed in cold blood. Maxwell was a psycho, nothing more.

Let's say that somebody finds out that their next door neighbor is a terrorist, and so they go and blow up the guy's house. Even if the neighbor IS a terrorist, that doesn't make it right. Same story here.

You forget that Maxwell WAS reporting his findings to Starfleet, BUT BEING IGNORED by Command. That pushed him into taking the actions he did because he believed the Cardassians would start another conflict and kill more Federation citizens.

The Starfleet Admiralty's reaction to the evidence was the issue here. And here's another thing the episode doesn't adress. Maxwell's crew obviously believed her was in the right as well. (Either that or they were going to use a defense first used by WWII Nazis - "Hey, we were just following order..."?? - Maxwell wasn't running the U.S.S. Phoenix by himself.)

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

You forget that Maxwell WAS reporting his findings to Starfleet, BUT BEING IGNORED by Command.

Tough shit. Reporting what he'd seen to Starfleet is the only thing that Maxwell has the right to do. He can't just start killing Cardassians willy-nilly, no matter how guilty he thinks they are. That's vigilantism writ large. It's really no better than Dexter Morgan, when you think of it.

Is there ANY chance PU Lorca still exists so the character may continue in S2?

Probably not. It's likely that the prime universe Lorca was killed in the destruction of USS Buran. MU Lorca just used it as a convenient excuse to pose as his counterpart (by claiming that he destroyed the ship to prevent the crew's capture).