Reading his posts, you get the impression that everything he says actually happened on screen
What exactly was the cause for Turkana IV falling into barbarism?
- Thread starter Unimatrix Q
- Start date
Well, on the computer screen, at any rate...
Trek is a sandbox. But every Sunday the actual owners of the place come and topple your castles so that they can build their own. Doesn't mean we can't have fun in between. And the art is in building your castles on top of, or in between, those of the owners.
Timo Saloniemi
Trek is a sandbox. But every Sunday the actual owners of the place come and topple your castles so that they can build their own. Doesn't mean we can't have fun in between. And the art is in building your castles on top of, or in between, those of the owners.
Timo Saloniemi
Another question is, are there other refugees from Turkana beside Tasha? And why are there apparently so many people still holding on to the planet, fighting for no other reason than to destroy their opponents, when they could simply leave this place and start anew?
What about the people who don't belong to any of the cadres?
What about the people who don't belong to any of the cadres?
I don't think there actually is much fighting going on. Beyond all the posturing, the local bosses do seem to believe in "peace" being the buzzword for today and fighting being "ancient history". Riker's analysis concurs. Neither side is really trying to destroy the other (although only because they lack the means to), and we get no indication of the civilians being "caught in the crossfire" or otherwise being distressed.
But free movement of people is a thing that both sides clearly would be hotly opposed to. After all, people without proximity detectors would blow the whole game and open warfare would again ensue. Thus the extreme response to any attempt for outsiders to enter.
People leaving would be less threatening to the status quo, though. The place isn't out in the sticks, if random freighters can make emergency landfall there. The colony is consistently referred to as a single spot on the planet, too, meaning one could charter a ride offworld and have it pick one up at some other spot on the same planet.
But our heroes think the planet hasn't "been able to maintain reliable communications" since the breakdown. The Cadres have access to secure channels that work just fine; they thus probably wish to monopolize comms to stop the other Cadre from gaining outside help, and that makes the job of chartering an escape flight all the more difficult.
Beyond that, we only hear the sentiments of a single Turkana IV colonist as regards the urge to stay vs. leave, and you can tell she's lying by observing her lips move.
Of course, the proximity detectors are another comforting lie. The government last put them into people fifteen years ago or thereabouts. By the time of the episode, both Cadres should have plenty of child soldiers not implanted with the device, even if they also maintain the practice of implanting the majority of children for control or for hiding their conquest project. But this is a time of change for the colony, and the Arcos incident need not be the real tipping point. Perhaps there's a Child Soldier Gap there and the Coalition fears the Alliance will overrun them any day now? (If it were vice versa, the Alliance would have no reason to hold on to its Arcon hostages.)
Timo Saloniemi
But free movement of people is a thing that both sides clearly would be hotly opposed to. After all, people without proximity detectors would blow the whole game and open warfare would again ensue. Thus the extreme response to any attempt for outsiders to enter.
People leaving would be less threatening to the status quo, though. The place isn't out in the sticks, if random freighters can make emergency landfall there. The colony is consistently referred to as a single spot on the planet, too, meaning one could charter a ride offworld and have it pick one up at some other spot on the same planet.
But our heroes think the planet hasn't "been able to maintain reliable communications" since the breakdown. The Cadres have access to secure channels that work just fine; they thus probably wish to monopolize comms to stop the other Cadre from gaining outside help, and that makes the job of chartering an escape flight all the more difficult.
Beyond that, we only hear the sentiments of a single Turkana IV colonist as regards the urge to stay vs. leave, and you can tell she's lying by observing her lips move.
Of course, the proximity detectors are another comforting lie. The government last put them into people fifteen years ago or thereabouts. By the time of the episode, both Cadres should have plenty of child soldiers not implanted with the device, even if they also maintain the practice of implanting the majority of children for control or for hiding their conquest project. But this is a time of change for the colony, and the Arcos incident need not be the real tipping point. Perhaps there's a Child Soldier Gap there and the Coalition fears the Alliance will overrun them any day now? (If it were vice versa, the Alliance would have no reason to hold on to its Arcon hostages.)
Timo Saloniemi
I've wondered, is there a way for people in Turkana IV to leave whenever they want?
Tasha had left to join Starfleet, but how?
Could anyone there just leave anytime?
(all these questions might have been answered in the episode, I just don't remember it right now)
Tasha had left to join Starfleet, but how?
Could anyone there just leave anytime?
(all these questions might have been answered in the episode, I just don't remember it right now)
I presume they still have passing trade, if it really is just a small city colony they would likely need supplies they couldn't get on their own planet. Presumably Tasha bought passage somehow...
It's not particularly pleasant to think what a young girl who apparently had little would be able to offer.
It's not particularly pleasant to think what a young girl who apparently had little would be able to offer.
Fair enough. At least I know where you're coming from now.
As far as Turkana IV is concerned, just because it's a colony composed of humans who are hundreds of years more advanced than we are, there are any number of reasons why the colony could have disintegrated.
There's no reason to believe that Federation settlements are 100% stable all the time. Bad things happen.
There's no reason to believe that Federation settlements are 100% stable all the time. Bad things happen.
Governor Kodos likes this.
Exactly, and that was the example in my mind when I was typing my post.
Another thing to consider is that just because a colony began as a UFP colony doesn't mean it couldn't sever that affiliation, again for any number of reasons.
And apparently they did just that. We've seen plenty of examples of colonies who end up doing dodgy things under the radar - genetic experiments for example - so it's not hard to imagine that ruthless people took control of Turkana IV and declared independence.
What was Starfleet supposed to do? The Potemkin was scared off under threat of death for anyone who attempted to beam down. The Enterprise-D crew were pretty impotent to effect any real change even if they had been motivated. It would have taken a significant police force to pacify the colony, assuming the political will existed.
Well, Kirk always felt entitled to restore order when he met an Earth colony, even if it meant killing all the colonists ("Operation: Annihilate"!).
But I'm not sure the UFP would wish to intervene here. It was under UFP rule that things went south there, and under the current rule that crime and fighting supposedly has been reduced. There'd be an element of embarrassment involved if Starfleet stormed the place and then did... What? Arrested first one half and then the other half of the population and then threw dice on which one gets to be deported for mutual safety?
OTOH, if the UFP just waits it out, the two sides will no doubt reach a conclusion that is much worse than the former UFP mismanagement, and then it's time to step in and do good...
As for colonies doing shady things, I don't think we can count either "Unnatural Selection" or "Masterpiece Society" as examples. The former operation was fully over the counter, with a confirmed previous starship visit and a proud and open hostess and all. The latter simply went without comment. Picard, just like Kirk, felt he had jurisdiction over Earth colonies even when those shunned the UFP ("Up the Long Ladder", say), and found nothing illegal about those two cases.
Is mob rule illegal? UFP members have all sorts of odd practices on the subject of "rule", and even Kirk can't touch those ("Cloud Minders"). UFP colonies may be different, though.
Timo Saloniemi
But I'm not sure the UFP would wish to intervene here. It was under UFP rule that things went south there, and under the current rule that crime and fighting supposedly has been reduced. There'd be an element of embarrassment involved if Starfleet stormed the place and then did... What? Arrested first one half and then the other half of the population and then threw dice on which one gets to be deported for mutual safety?
OTOH, if the UFP just waits it out, the two sides will no doubt reach a conclusion that is much worse than the former UFP mismanagement, and then it's time to step in and do good...
As for colonies doing shady things, I don't think we can count either "Unnatural Selection" or "Masterpiece Society" as examples. The former operation was fully over the counter, with a confirmed previous starship visit and a proud and open hostess and all. The latter simply went without comment. Picard, just like Kirk, felt he had jurisdiction over Earth colonies even when those shunned the UFP ("Up the Long Ladder", say), and found nothing illegal about those two cases.
Is mob rule illegal? UFP members have all sorts of odd practices on the subject of "rule", and even Kirk can't touch those ("Cloud Minders"). UFP colonies may be different, though.
Timo Saloniemi
Someone shut off the cable and replicators for an hour and half....chaos ensues.
Let me tell you something about Hew-mons. They're a wonderful, friendly people, as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts, deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers, put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people... will become as nasty and as violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon.
Let me tell you something about Hew-mons. They're a wonderful, friendly people, as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts, deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers, put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people... will become as nasty and as violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon.
Nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. Plus it sends a message to other colonies that might "step out of line".
... ooh... sorry... thought we were in the MU.
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