Babylon 5

[Reverend]

I'm still pondering how it's possible to poison a Vorlon. I'm guessing that our shapeshifter may well be an agent of the Shadows, and obtained the poison from them. I'm supposing that all the Doctor actually did was to remove the poison patch from Kosh and Kosh probably recovered largely on his own; I can't imagine the medlab is set up to handle million year old energy squids.

It's a bit of a misconception that the Vorlons are energy based. Though they're physically powerful as well as and telekinetic and telepathic, they do still have bodies. The impression I get is that they evolved from deep sea creatures, hence the squid/jellyfish/elder thing like anatomy, translucency and bio-luminescence. Indeed, I've often speculated that this is the historical origin of the encounter suit; that back before they evolved/engineered their biology into what we're familiar with, their deep sea dwelling ancestors needed high pressure suits in order to interact with other races. Coming from such an extreme environment may also account for their tendency towards aloof isolationism. Later on they got to the point where they didn't need the suits anymore, but kept them all the same, out of cultural tradition as much as anything.
I mean think about it: on a space ship or station where the environmental conditions are entirely controlled, there's no *practical* reason why humans can't just walk around naked 90% of the time. It's mostly just a cultural thing. Perhaps in a sense it's the same for the Vorlons.

As for how they were able to poison a Vorlon: remember that 1000 years ago the Vorlons walked openly among the Minbari. There may have been some instance where a Vorlon was injured or even killed in their presence and a record of that (probably a *very* guarded secret) could have been kept by the Grey Council. How that information got to the Minbari assassin isn't clear, but given certain other events on the show it's a fair bet at least one of the warrior caste Satai may have been backing the rogue clan behind the attempt.

It's possible the Shadows and/or their agents were indirectly behind this too since the infighting between the castes did ultimately keep the bulk of the Minbari's warriors out of the Shadow War. That's just speculation on my part however.

 

[Verteron]

It's a bit of a misconception that the Vorlons are energy based. Though they're physically powerful as well as and telekinetic and telepathic, they do still have bodies. The impression I get is that they evolved from deep sea creatures, hence the squid/jellyfish/elder thing like anatomy, translucency and bio-luminescence. Indeed, I've often speculated that this is the historical origin of the encounter suit; that back before they evolved/engineered their biology into what we're familiar with, their deep sea dwelling ancestors needed high pressure suits in order to interact with other races. Coming from such an extreme environment may also account for their tendency towards aloof isolationism. Later on they got to the point where they didn't need the suits anymore, but kept them all the same, out of cultural tradition as much as anything.

This is a good set of thoughts on the Vorlons and I'd almost be convinced about them being corporeal, were it not for the end of the Kosh/Ulkesh fight sequence:

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Ulkesh, a full Vorlon, and Kosh, who has apparently been hiding in some sort of in-substantive way inside of Sheridan, seem to exit the station without puncturing a hole in the hull (although I admit they punched a whole in the deck, but in the roof, which is towards the centre of the station). They then both appear as mile-wide disks of light.

Perhaps this could be explained as psychic energy projected as they both killed each other physically, and that Ulkesh's physical body had already been destroyed, either left inside the encounter suit when it was electrocuted, or killed by Kosh on the way out of the station.

What do you think?

 

[DonIago]

I think my view is that the Vorlons are sort of mid-way between solid and energy, and can become more or less of either one, to an extent, with the related benefits and drawbacks of each.

Kosh was in a more physical state when he met "Sinclair", making him susceptible to a poison tab that would have been ineffective otherwise.

...or he was faking it, because now I like that theory.

 

[Reverend]

Ulkesh, a full Vorlon, and Kosh, who has apparently been hiding in some sort of in-substantive way inside of Sheridan, seem to exit the station without puncturing a hole in the hull (although I admit they punched a whole in the deck, but in the roof, which is towards the centre of the station). They then both appear as mile-wide disks of light.

Perhaps this could be explained as psychic energy projected as they both killed each other physically, and that Ulkesh's physical body had already been destroyed, either left inside the encounter suit when it was electrocuted, or killed by Kosh on the way out of the station.

What do you think?

There's actually a short story that sort of touches on the fact that the Vorlon's telepathic and telekinetic abilities did not evolve naturally, but were engineered into their genome at some point. The basic gist is that any species that evolves with a natural telepathic ability cannot subsequently develop sentience because it would have no need to since it can instinctively affect it's environment to suit it. Conversely, a sentient race cannot naturally evolve telepathic abilities because the nature of tool users is that they again, alter their environment to suit them and thus bypass the majority of the pressures that drive natural selection.

With all that in mind, it's not too much of a stretch to suppose that the Vorlons we see are the same lines as the concept of "transhumans". Beings shaped by both evolution and science, the latter of which in the Vorlon's case is near godlike levels of technology. So the ability to defy gravity and pass though, or burrow through solid matter isn't too much of a stretch.

Not quite sure what's happening when the fragment of Kosh seems to physically manifest, but I'd be willing to bet it couldn't have happened like that if Lorien wasn't in the mix.

I think my view is that the Vorlons are sort of mid-way between solid and energy, and can become more or less of either one, to an extent, with the related benefits and drawbacks of each.

More or less, but I think they're still physical being under all that, if for no other reason than electrocution and plasma weapons really shouldn't have damaged a being made of energy.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

The Vorlons seem to be creatures who have replaced their original corporeal bodies with a nano, pico, femto or higher technology utility fog. Their encounter suit is merely convenient for interacting with the younger races (I choose to ignore what happened to Kosh in The Gathering along with the other inconsistencies between the pilot and the series). However, the Vorlons have demonstrated the ability to remotely manipulate the brain state of an observer to appear as a version of angelic beings in that observer's culture. There seems to be no guarantee that the squid-like form was perhaps anything more than a default projection.

 

[Verteron]

What the heck is Lorien, for that matter?

How can he be the very first intelligent being in the galaxy, and have outlived the entire rest of his species?

I know not much is explained in the series about his origins, but I'd assumed he might be a natural born energy creature, that had become more complex over time, perhaps as a result of whatever created him continuing (high energy involved in star formation or something, perhaps?).

Or maybe he was some kind of colony creature / emergent hive mind on a planetary scale that later transitioned to an energy-like form able to take on a physical appearance when needed.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

What the heck is Lorien, for that matter?

How can he be the very first intelligent being in the galaxy, and have outlived the entire rest of his species?

I know not much is explained in the series about his origins, but I'd assumed he might be a natural born energy creature, that had become more complex over time, perhaps as a result of whatever created him continuing (high energy involved in star formation or something, perhaps?).

Or maybe he was some kind of colony creature / emergent hive mind on a planetary scale that later transitioned to an energy-like form able to take on a physical appearance when needed.

According to quantum solipsism, every conscious being experiences existing forever in some branch of the multiverse while their family, friends and even their entire race appear to die. Lorien is perhaps just the oldest surviving such entity in the B5verse. His apparent corporeal form is perhaps no more than a similar construct to a Vorlon's encounter suit.

 

[Reverend]

What the heck is Lorien, for that matter?

How can he be the very first intelligent being in the galaxy, and have outlived the entire rest of his species?

I know not much is explained in the series about his origins, but I'd assumed he might be a natural born energy creature, that had become more complex over time, perhaps as a result of whatever created him continuing (high energy involved in star formation or something, perhaps?).

Or maybe he was some kind of colony creature / emergent hive mind on a planetary scale that later transitioned to an energy-like form able to take on a physical appearance when needed.

Lorien seems to transition from the scientifically plausable and into the mythical.

Remember that one of JMS's core concepts for the Minbari (and one I think he holds personally, to some extent) is that all life is the universe itself made manifest...which is true enough from a bio-chemical & particle physics standpoint. An oxygen atom after all doesn't care if it's inside your blood stream as you go for a jog, or if it's sat in a frozen rock floating though interstellar space for a billion years.
But he seems to apply a more literal and spiritual aspect to it when it comes to consciousness. Specifically that each sentient consciousness is a finite fragment of an infinite universal whole, which said consciousnesses return to upon death.
How this seems to apply to Lorien is that in the beginning, there were only a small handful of conscious beings in the universe. So those finite fragments were (for lack of a better term) very large indeed. Put simply, we are all the universe but Lorien is *more* the universe and as such is more powerful and connected in every way.

Short version: he's like the elves in Tolkien's works (the name should be a bit of a giveaway!) and so the normal mortal rules don't really apply.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Here's another video about simulated and artificial gravity in Sci-Fi. Babylon 5 section from 7:15 onwards.

No mention of Rendezvous With Rama. That's kind of a major oversight.

 

[Jan]

Everybody seems to think that Kosh was only an energy being but he wasn't. He had to have had a physical component in order to help Sheridan down after the core shuttle explosion (though that wasn't terribly well done with no 'wind' indication in Sheridan's hair or anything).

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ And beings of pure energy (womp, womp, womp womp womp-womp) can't be poisoned.

 

[DonIago]

Who's everybody? Only asking since I already said that in my headspace the Vorlons were somewhere in-between.

 

[Jan]

Who's everybody? Only asking since I already said that in my headspace the Vorlons were somewhere in-between.

Mostly people on FB. It's a common misperception, is all.

 

[Verteron]

Passing Through Gethsemane was on Pick TV this week, what a gem, that I barely even remember from my first couple of times through B5. Brother Edward was creepy and vulnerable in just the right amounts, Brad Dourif really does these sorts of roles well.

I'm not a particularly religious person but his speech about Jesus at the Garden of Gethsemane was powerful enough that even I was a little bit moved.

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Really excellently written and acted with some fantastic payoffs. A small piece of 'deus ex machina' having to introduce the mindwipe earlier in the same episode, but I didn't mind.

 

[DonIago]

The mindwipe was actually brought up way back in S1 IIRC, and it does feel a little clumsy that it's brought up again at the top of this episode...but I can't fault TPTB for feeling the reminder was necessary, especially for people who may have missed the first occurrence.

I'm not always a fan of B5's more episodic episodes, but this one really got the job done. I shudder to think how it might have played with a less capable actor as Brother Edward though.

 

[Marsden]

It's a bit of a misconception that the Vorlons are energy based. Though they're physically powerful as well as and telekinetic and telepathic, they do still have bodies. The impression I get is that they evolved from deep sea creatures, hence the squid/jellyfish/elder thing like anatomy, translucency and bio-luminescence. Indeed, I've often speculated that this is the historical origin of the encounter suit; that back before they evolved/engineered their biology into what we're familiar with, their deep sea dwelling ancestors needed high pressure suits in order to interact with other races. Coming from such an extreme environment may also account for their tendency towards aloof isolationism. Later on they got to the point where they didn't need the suits anymore, but kept them all the same, out of cultural tradition as much as anything.
I mean think about it: on a space ship or station where the environmental conditions are entirely controlled, there's no *practical* reason why humans can't just walk around naked 90% of the time. It's mostly just a cultural thing. Perhaps in a sense it's the same for the Vorlons.

As for how they were able to poison a Vorlon: remember that 1000 years ago the Vorlons walked openly among the Minbari. There may have been some instance where a Vorlon was injured or even killed in their presence and a record of that (probably a *very* guarded secret) could have been kept by the Grey Council. How that information got to the Minbari assassin isn't clear, but given certain other events on the show it's a fair bet at least one of the warrior caste Satai may have been backing the rogue clan behind the attempt.

It's possible the Shadows and/or their agents were indirectly behind this too since the infighting between the castes did ultimately keep the bulk of the Minbari's warriors out of the Shadow War. That's just speculation on my part however.

I agree with all of that but I'd like to add to it, something that may be incorrect, but that warrior was a Windsword and they were sheltering Deathwalker, who I think is certainly one person that could have made "Vorlon poison". Also, maybe that's why Kosh seemed so damn happy when the Vorlon killed her.

On a contradictory point, I've wondered if the Vorlon didn't kill Deathwalker and whisked her off that ship with some Vorlon tech we don't know about and kept her like they kept Sebastian, she seems the type.

 

[Reverend]

I agree with all of that but I'd like to add to it, something that may be incorrect, but that warrior was a Windsword and they were sheltering Deathwalker, who I think is certainly one person that could have made "Vorlon poison". Also, maybe that's why Kosh seemed so damn happy when the Vorlon killed her.

It's not impossible that she could have devised something, but it would still necessitate at least some knowledge about Vorlon biology to be able to affect it. Which of course leads us back to the Grey Council, and honestly from a storytelling POV eliminates the need for Deathwalker to be involved at all.

For me the most compelling evidence that a Satai was backing the Windswords is that the assassination attempt hinged on getting Kosh to open his encounter suit. The only reason he did was because he recognised "Sinclair" as Valen, and only the Grey Council knew of that connection. Also of course he flat out said to Sinclair "there is a hole in your mind", which may as well have been a smoking gun in grey robes.

On a contradictory point, I've wondered if the Vorlon didn't kill Deathwalker and whisked her off that ship with some Vorlon tech we don't know about and kept her like they kept Sebastian, she seems the type.

Again, not impossible but if they were going to do that, they'd just take her. It's not like they'd care what anyone else thought, nor could anyone really do anything to stop them. If on the off chance they didn't want anyone to know they had her, then surely the simpler approach would have been to take her ship while it was in hyperspace where there are no witnesses, not make a show of blowing it to atoms right in front of the jumpgate.

That said, I'm not sure I agree that (aside from being a psychopath) she's really all that similar to Mr. Sebastian. He had a very singular drive and thought (however misguided) he was doing what he was doing for the greater good. On top of that he was a man who was humbled by regret and paying a penance. Deathwalker was only in it for herself and was willing to gleefully sit back and watch the rest of the galaxy burn while she lived forever. I don't think the Vorlons would have much use for such a person. Now the Shadows on the other hand...

 

[Gov Kodos]

It's not impossible that she could have devised something, but it would still necessitate at least some knowledge about Vorlon biology to be able to affect it. Which of course leads us back to the Grey Council, and honestly from a storytelling POV eliminates the need for Deathwalker to be involved at all.

For me the most compelling evidence that a Satai was backing the Windswords is that the assassination attempt hinged on getting Kosh to open his encounter suit. The only reason he did was because he recognised "Sinclair" as Valen, and only the Grey Council knew of that connection. Also of course he flat out said to Sinclair "there is a hole in your mind", which may as well have been a smoking gun in grey robes.



Again, not impossible but if they were going to do that, they'd just take her. It's not like they'd care what anyone else thought, nor could anyone really do anything to stop them. If on the off chance they didn't want anyone to know they had her, then surely the simpler approach would have been to take her ship while it was in hyperspace where there are no witnesses, not make a show of blowing it to atoms right in front of the jumpgate.

That said, I'm not sure I agree that (aside from being a psychopath) she's really all that similar to Mr. Sebastian. He had a very singular drive and thought (however misguided) he was doing what he was doing for the greater good. On top of that he was a man who was humbled by regret and paying a penance. Deathwalker was only in it for herself and was willing to gleefully sit back and watch the rest of the galaxy burn while she lived forever. I don't think the Vorlons would have much use for such a person. Now the Shadows on the other hand...

The Vorlons might have gotten the whole business from Valen/Sinclair himself and Kosh was just keeping the time loop going? I'd be surprised the Vorlons of the past didn't scan Sinclair for all he was worth.

I agree that the Vorlons didn't need to be secretive about kidnapping Deathwalker and likely just destroyed her and the transport. I do wonder if the Vorlons were behind destroying the Dilgar sun. Already aware of her experiments, they took action. I don't know what was specific in her cure that a human would need to die for the key ingredient. It's a bit like that healing machine, why wouldn't a cow do just as well and have steaks afterwards? Or a chimp, if it needs a closer genetic relative?

 

[Reverend]

The Vorlons might have gotten the whole business from Valen/Sinclair himself and Kosh was just keeping the time loop going? I'd be surprised the Vorlons of the past didn't scan Sinclair for all he was worth.

That's a bit of a "I have an invisible dragon in my garage" argument since Kosh playing along with a predestined paradox is indistinguishable from a Kosh ignorant of what's going on. In the absence of any other direct evidence to the contrary, best to just assume that Valen kept his mouth shut for fear of altering events and causing that nightmare scenario he witnessed in the time flashes.

I do wonder if the Vorlons were behind destroying the Dilgar sun. Already aware of her experiments, they took action.

Cart before the horse. The experiments were the result of their invasion and attempt to subdue the league worlds and it's seems fairly implicit that the impending nova of their home system was what motivated the sudden and drastic need to expand their territory in the first place. Also note: the star went nova *after* they were defeated and driven back to their home system.

Though it's tempting to try and draw connections where none really exist, it's worth keeping in mind that the Vorlons for the most part were very hands off. Though they still saw themselves as the guardians of the younger races, the reality is that they'd long since abandoned that role in favour of their eons long tit-for-tat with the Shadows. They probably didn't really care about what the Dilgar were up to. In the grand scheme of things, it's not that big of a conflict and since there were not Shadow agents that we know of involved, there was little reason to get directly involved. Indeed, at no point did they intervene to curtail the original Centauri occupation of Narn and all the horrors that followed. Nor were they very hands on in trying to prevent the Earth/Minbari War and that was a conflict they very much wanted to end.

 

[Marsden]

Again, not impossible but if they were going to do that, they'd just take her. It's not like they'd care what anyone else thought, ...

I agree about Deathwalker not being the same as Sebastian, it was just a thought, mostly because the Vorlon ship shot twice and they don't seem to be the kind to need to zero in on a target.

I do disagree about the part of your quote, I think the Vorlon did care about what the other races thought, that was the point of the very public display of eliminating her and making the pronouncement "You are not ready for Immorality"
The Vorlon had the power, but they also cultivated a reputation for being undefeatable and it's much easier to keep everyone scared to resist them without having to make the effort to actually fight them. They were in decline and their power while great had declined. Being scary and aloof was a big part of maintaining that reputation.