Balance of Terror

[Crazy Eddie]

If everything is so tightly packed in though, one or more Romulan ships could rush towards an outpost and be past within those same few minutes. By the time the outpost had reported the incident, the ships would be long gone. At the orbit of Jupiter they are simply too close to do anything useful.

The outposts aren't supposed to STOP the from crossing, they're there to sound the alarm if they do. The point is, if the Romulans rushed towards/past the outpost, they would definitely be seen. If they flew up and out of the plane of the system to try and avoid being seen, the outposts would spot them on their long range sensors and raise the alarm.

But with them being 5 light years apart at all times, the Romulans could probably slip between them between them without being noticed at all.

If the outposts were reliant on conventional STL sightings then that might be the case. However, Starfleet uses subspace sensors that can track enemies light years away and instantaneously.

It's not clear that this is the case for TOS, especially early TOS, where there is a significant delay to their nearest command base even on subspace.

Fewer outposts (say, about 7) would be needed where the two territories meet...

Assuming space is two dimensional, sure. But if it's 5 light years between outposts and if the outposts need to be within 5 or 10 light years to detect -- let alone identify -- a passing ship, the lack of outposts above or below the plane of the original border makes them effectively useless.

It's one thing if you're only controlling access to a particular solar system and you only need to detect an object up to about 40 AUs away, we KNOW Trek sensors can do this easily. But with a 50 light year ring around some arbitrary center of Romulan space, the outposts would effective ONLY along the plane.

Check Spock's map again; there are numerous stars scattered all over it

What makes you think those are stars? Romulus is a PLANET, not a star. And it's represented fairly largely on this display, which suggests it's the largest planet on a chart that also includes small asteroids, satellites, and Comet Icarus IV.

5,000 x 6 = 30,000 units of something, but what?

Considering it's about the distance between Romulus and Remus, which is described as being a "double planet" in later canon (and the dialog implies as much) it's probably Earth radii. That would also be consistent with the little half circle that acts as a label here. So each grid square is about 20 million miles wide. To put that in perspective, the closest approach between Earth and Mars in their orbits is about 45 million miles.

This is also consistent with the Enterprise' motion across this graphic, which takes about two seconds to cover a distance of one grid square. That corresponds to a velocity of about 50 times the speed of light, or a little faster than Warp 3.

 

[Mytran]

Say what??!!??

A light year is the distance light travels in one Earth year (orbit of our sun)
A parsec is derived from a calculation of distant star, using 1AU (orbit of our sun) as a known factor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsec

The outposts aren't supposed to STOP the from crossing, they're there to sound the alarm if they do. The point is, if the Romulans rushed towards/past the outpost, they would definitely be seen. If they flew up and out of the plane of the system to try and avoid being seen, the outposts would spot them on their long range sensors and raise the alarm.

Possibly. In his intership address Spock says that the outposts "monitor the neutral zone". However. at the range of a Jovian orbit, they'd be able to monitor the entire Romulan star system! This would also be a prudent move on the outposts' part, as it would give them advance knowledge of any ships approaching the (very thin) RNZ. However, this is not what what is stated - they are monitoring just the RNZ and nothing else.
Also, in his opening log Kirk names the bases as "outposts guarding the neutral zone". How are they expected to guard anything if they lack weaponry? Well, as it turns out they do have weapons. When Kirk is talking to Hansen on Outpost 4 we get this exchange:

KIRK: Do you have phaser capacity? We're still out of range.
HANSEN: Negative. Phasers gone. Weapons crew dead.

So we know know that the outposts also played the role of armed "guard towers"

But with them being 5 light years apart at all times, the Romulans could probably slip between them between them without being noticed at all

If they had only one sensor beam each only sweeping a single plane then maybe. But why would Starfleet build the outposts without 3 dimensional monitoring technology? Additionally, the radius of what they could detect expands outwards the further it goes. Since we know they'd need to monitor the RNZ as a minimum, we can plot the various radii of the bases:

How exactly could anything sneak by?

It's not clear that this is the case for TOS, especially early TOS, where there is a significant delay to their nearest command base even on subspace.

Correct; 3 hours delay was quoted in the episode. However, all 8 outposts had instant contact between each other, as they knew when some of them had gone dead.

Assuming space is two dimensional, sure. But if it's 5 light years between outposts and if the outposts need to be within 5 or 10 light years to detect -- let alone identify -- a passing ship, the lack of outposts above or below the plane of the original border makes them effectively useless.

It's one thing if you're only controlling access to a particular solar system and you only need to detect an object up to about 40 AUs away, we KNOW Trek sensors can do this easily. But with a 50 light year ring around some arbitrary center of Romulan space, the outposts would effective ONLY along the plane.

I'm not proposing a ring, just a short section where the borders of the two territories meet (similar to the idea described by @Tenacity)
As to the lack of up/down in space in relation to Spock's map, I agree that it is limited in what it can show. So, either the RNZ extends to the limit of the top/bottom of the galaxy (unlikely) or there are other space faring superpowers present, and the top/bottom of the RNZ buts up against them. If the latter is the case then the outposts need only monitor their section of the border. If the former then a LOT more outposts will be required (or a much extended sensor range)

What makes you think those are stars? Romulus is a PLANET, not a star. And it's represented fairly largely on this display, which suggests it's the largest planet on a chart that also includes small asteroids, satellites, and Comet Icarus IV.

Do we know that it's not also the name of their star? And what about Romii, also represented fairly largely? If each grid square is a parsec then Romii can be a neighbouring star system to Romulus.
However, if the RNZ only surrounds a single solar system and Romii is Remus by another name then it is too far away to be a twin planet (seen in ST10) at that scale; it should be right next to Romulus, even on a rough map like this.

Considering it's about the distance between Romulus and Remus, which is described as being a "double planet" in later canon (and the dialog implies as much) it's probably Earth radii. That would also be consistent with the little half circle that acts as a label here. So each grid square is about 20 million miles wide. To put that in perspective, the closest approach between Earth and Mars in their orbits is about 45 million miles.

If the RNZ represents part of a circle and Romulus/Romii are like the Earth/Mars arrangement then something is seriously awry, as both planets are on the same orbital path (not a healthy place for either planet). Additionally, if those grids are 1AU then Romulus orbits at around 9AUs from its sun (the equivalent of Saturn).

This is also consistent with the Enterprise' motion across this graphic, which takes about two seconds to cover a distance of one grid square. That corresponds to a velocity of about 50 times the speed of light, or a little faster than Warp 3.

Warp 3 on the TNG scale, maybe (although the inaccuracy of "official" warp speeds is a debate for another time). However, the Enterprise was hurtling towards the endangered outposts at maximum speed. Even at this point in the series that would be warp 6 at least, maybe warp 7.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Possibly. In his intership address Spock says that the outposts "monitor the neutral zone". However. at the range of a Jovian orbit, they'd be able to monitor the entire Romulan star system!

Indeed. And so they would be in position to sound the alarm if a ship in that system passes beyond the Treaty Boundary closing off the inner and outer systems. If the Romulans have been imprisoned within their own system, the Outposts only need to raise the alarm if they try to break out, and then the Starfleet response would be to send a massive fleet to punish them. This, arguably, is the whole reason the neutral zone is even a thing; Romulus refused to surrender, and the Federation REALLY didn't want to have the blood of their entire species on their collective hands, so the "draw a line in the stars" solution was a graceful exit for both sides: the Romulan leadership probably went back and told their people that they had defeated the Federation at their gates and had kept them from invading, and the Federation sleeps peacefully knowing the Romulans aren't going to make us go in there and glass their entire fucking planet.

they are monitoring just the RNZ and nothing else.

"Nothing else" isn't suggested by dialog at all. More to the point, the neutral zone is only "neutral" vis a vis Federation and Romulan warships. It probably doesn't apply to civilians at all, or neutral third parties like the Klingons. There, too, the outposts would have a duty to monitor civilian traffic and keep track of their comings and goings. They may also act as customs stations that civilian vessels have to check with whenever they leave the zone.

So we know know that the outposts also played the role of armed "guard towers"

Which, again, supports a smaller scale here. Because while a phaser bank would be sufficient to hit targets out to a few light seconds or so, they do NOT have the range to hit a moving target 2 or 3 light years distant.

If they had only one sensor beam each only sweeping a single plane then maybe. But why would Starfleet build the outposts without 3 dimensional monitoring technology?

Irrelevant. If a single outpost had unlimited sensor range in all directions, there wouldn't be EIGHT of them strong out on a line. The reason for multiple posts suggests their sensor coverage is limited, as per your own diagram:

How exactly could anything sneak by, you ask?

I note that ou projected the circles out two about to grid squares from each one. This same line of outposts on the Z axis would just be a single donut-shaped ring of detection that a Romulan vessel would spend all of fifteen minutes flying OVER to avoid the entire picket line.

So a large/interstellar scale has the problem that it doesn't scale well in three dimensions; space is simply too big for this setup to really work in three dimensions. The smaller scale works in 3D, but only BARELY, and then only if we assume the outposts each have a detection range that extends pretty much all the way to the system's barrycenter. In that case, the vast majority of Romulan ship traffic WOULD be along the orbital plane, and detecting a ship traveling above the plane would be pretty easy, you just look for the one odd, lonely blip that isn't doing what all of the others are doing.

Also, a ring of outposts makes sense for an orbiting location particularly on account of Romulus and Remus' position: if the two planets are in lower orbits, they'll be closer and farther from different outposts at different times. The better to track departures and arrivals from Romulus if you can always keep the planet within 5 grid squares, yes?

As to the lack of up/down in space in relation to Spock's map, I agree that it is limited in what it can show. So, either the RNZ extends to the limit of the top/bottom of the galaxy (unlikely) or there are other space faring superpowers present, and the top/bottom of the RNZ buts up against them.

This doesn't work as an explanation, since it would still imply a border that is incredibly long and thin.

More importantly, a Romulan neutral zone that doesn't enclose their entire empire would be just as useless for exactly the same reason: it wouldn't be a "buffer" between the two territories, just a minor navigational nuisance that both sides have to fly around in order to get anywhere. Creating a "neutral zone" between the Federation and the Empire would be like closing the border between Missouri and Kentucky without also closing Illinois and Tennessee. And that's just in TWO dimensions.

However, if the RNZ only surrounds a single solar system and Romii is Remus by another name then it is too far away to be a twin planet

No, if the grid scale is in Earth radii it would be orbiting at about 20 million miles, about half the distance between Earth and Mars. Depending on the mass of Romulus, Remus would be in a horseshoe orbit and would be a "pseudosatellite" of Romulus.

Warp 3 on the TNG scale, maybe (although the inaccuracy of "official" warp speeds is a debate for another time). However, the Enterprise was hurtling towards the endangered outposts at maximum speed. Even at this point in the series that would be warp 6 at least, maybe warp 7.

Which would still be between 100 and 200 times the speed of light. The scale could be the radius of a larger planet (say, Vulcan or Andor) in which case each unit is about 10,000km. Each grid square is therefore about 50 million kilometers, or about one third of an AU. Either way, this would be consistent with later depictions of warp speed where several minutes travel time would cover interplanetary distances, rather than interstellar ones.

 

[ATimson]

The script describes the map as showing:

...a curved space marked "Neutral Zone", and extending off the map beyond that a star system of which one of the planets is marked "ROMULUS"...​

Is a "star system" a solar system? Regardless, there's no clarification as to what ROM II is on the map seen in the episode, since it's in neither document.

The solar system is a star system (specifically, the one we live in, Sol). Other stellar systems are not solar systems. Calling them "solar systems" would be like saying New York is one of 50 Californias in the US.

 

[Samuel]

Note, in suggesting that the Romulan Neutral Zone surrounded all of Romulan space whether that space was just the planets Romulus and Romii (Remus or whatever) we assume that the Neutral Zone was intended to isolate the ENTIRE GALAXY from the Romulan Star Empire.

Why?

Isn't it more likely that the Neutral Zone and the Federation outposts along it were simply meant to protect Federation territory from the most direct path of possible Romulan incursions into Federation space. Much like the current day Korean Demilitarized Zone doesn't surround all of North Korea. It simply divides North Korea and South Korean territory and the most direct land routes from North Korea into the South.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Note, in suggesting that the Romulan Neutral Zone surrounded all of Romulan space whether that space was just the planets Romulus and Romii (Remus or whatever) we assume that the Neutral Zone was intended to isolate the ENTIRE GALAXY from the Romulan Star Empire.

Why?

Three reasons:
1) Kirk uses the words "Between Romulus and Remus and the rest of the galaxy." So it's pretty explicit that this is EXACTLY what the zone is supposed to be
2) The Romulans are a race of conquerors who take "might makes right" to its ultimate conclusion. Failure to isolate them from the rest of the galaxy would mean they would simply go on trying to conquer those same systems by some other route. The armistice doesn't seem to prevent the Romulans from actually conquering anything, just from moving beyond their own territory.
3) It's also difficult to justify Starfleet's lack of basic intel on the Romulans unless their entire civilization has been in complete isolation for the last hundred years. Later Trek canon implies this isolation is mostly voluntary (weirdly enough) but Balance of Terror makes the clear implication that this isolation was imposed on them because they were a crazy rogue state that couldn't otherwise be reasoned with.

Isn't it more likely that the Neutral Zone and the Federation outposts along it were simply meant to protect Federation territory from the most direct path of possible Romulan incursions into Federation space.

That is very UN likely, since in that case the Romulans would simply take a less direct path.

On the contrary, something about the neutral zone actively dissuades the Romulans from even TRYING to fight the Federation. Since Earth probably wasn't the aggressor in this conflict, we can conclude that the zone was imposed on them after being driven so far back into their own territory that further losses could not be tolerated, nor could they be prevented by military means. If the zone was breakable by any "roundabout" path, the Romulans would have simply rebuilt their fleets and tried again, circumventing the neutral zone entirely before striking without warning at Federation bases and colonies.

In fact, it is the ability to do exactly this that makes the cloaking device such a game changer, and why the Enterprise risked so much to get a copy of it in "The Enterprise Incident." If the Romulans could evade sensors, they could break out of the zone completely undetected. Of course, by that point it was already being retconned to a seemingly larger region of space than in "Balance of Terror" but the overall implication is the same: their entire sphere of influence is cut off from the rest of the galaxy and contained, and they are not particularly happy about it.

Much like the current day Korean Demilitarized Zone doesn't surround all of North Korea. It simply divides North Korea and South Korean territory and the most direct land routes from North Korea into the South.

That's just it: it cuts off ALL land routes between the north and the south. If there was a land route to bypass the DMZ, then the DMZ itself would be a silly and pointless thing to have. In Maritime terms, it's much the same way: North Korean ships cannot enter South Korean waters without a fuss, and vice versa, so a de facto DMV exists along their coastal waters as well. This more closely reflects the situation in later years where the Romulans apparently DO have ways to get out of their territory but have for some reason given up on conquering the Federation or the rest of the galaxy. But the TNG era's neutral zone is so large that whole star systems are locked up inside of it, so it's probably not the same zone or even the same treaty.

 

[The Librarian]

TOS tends to use "the galaxy" a lot even in situations where it clearly doesn't apply. It's a figure of speech, not literal.

 

[BK613]

I've mentioned this before but Romii is a spelling of the Greek word for Romans and it is how the citizens of the Eastern Roman Empire* referred to themselves until that empire's fall and how Greeks were referred to under the Ottoman Empire. In the 19th century, nationalism and an embrace of the West had Roman references like Romii be replaced with Hellenes and Graeco in referencing the citizens of the new Greece state. (source)

So it either really cool (or a hell of a coincidence) that the map refers to the "Latin" Roman Empire, via Romulus, and the "Greek" Roman Empire, via Romii.

*(later designated the Byzantine Empire long after it fell)

 

[Maurice]

The solar system is a star system (specifically, the one we live in, Sol). Other stellar systems are not solar systems. Calling them "solar systems" would be like saying New York is one of 50 Californias in the US.

I meant is that how the writer meant it.

I've mentioned this before but Romii is a spelling of the Greek word for Romans and it is how the citizens of the Eastern Roman Empire* referred to themselves until that empire's fall and how Greeks were referred to under the Ottoman Empire.

And that's an interesting idea. Wish we knew whose idea it was to use that, since it's not in the scripts, treatments or documents I have seen.

Unless someone meant Rom II.

 

[Albertese]

This has been a fascinating thread. I had always assumed that "Balance of Terror" was written with the assumption that the Romulan Empire was just the one star system, and that subsequently the writers decided to make them a bigger threat and just retconned that they were an Interstellar empire the whole time and handwaved the parts of BoT that don't jive with that.

However, comments I read herein make me start to consider the possibility that indeed the events of BoT are constrained to a single system and that the Romulans subsequently developed a much more vast territory (perhaps starting to do so during the run of the original series) and that the TNG era RNZ is a product of some turn-of-the-24th-Century treaty, perhaps after we were so buddy-buddy with them in ST6 (witness Romulan ambassador Nanclus chilling in the office of the President in Paris during a classified Starfleet security briefing.)

Now, I'm sure I'm only asking this because I haven't spent more than five minutes thinking about it, but what explicit evidence is there in TOS that we aren't seeing glimpses of an immediately post-2266 expansion of the Romulan Imperial territory?

--Alex

Post script:

After a few minutes in thought, consider the following:

--By the 2150s, the Romulans control quite a few star systems. These are possibly not well populated and may not even have native sentient inhabitants, but Romulan outposts and industry are beginning to be set up.

--The expanding Romulan forces bump into the expanding Earth forces. Things go sour and the Earth-Romulus War is fought. Earth already has some diplomatic ties to some neighboring powers (Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites) and these choose to ally with Earth to help defend their interests. Romulans are beaten and the combat gets right to their doorstep. Things have gone very poorly indeed for them, all their outposts in neighboring systems were either destroyed by the allied forces or abandoned in order to muster those resources for the fighting. Having nothing else to lose, they agree to a cease fire and allow Earth to build a series of armed observation outposts in the asteroid belt of their home system. On the other side, the allies realize that the alliance went very well for everyone and they see the benefit of a more formal organization and the Federation is born.

--Over the next century, the Romulans tend to their own internal interests. They are fully aware that the alliance that beat them back has only gotten bigger and stronger and it takes a while for them to figure out a strategy. Their plan is to develop some means of bypassing the Earth outposts so they can reestablish their pre-war territorial holdings, which leads to the exploration of cloaking technology. Perhaps the ship from BoT was only the first cloaked ship the Feds ever observed. Perhaps, in fact, a fleet of cloaked ships had been in existence for several years by then. The cloak had already been proven to be effective in eluding the Outposts detection and ships had been getting out to quietly reestablish the abandoned pre-Romulan War out-of-system bases. They also learn of hostilities between the Klingons and the Federation and manage to send envoys to negotiate with them.

--"Balance of Terror" happens. Only the super-exiting and new tech on board Mark Leonard's ship is not the cloaking device, but rather, the plasma torpedo. (Note that the only other time we encounter Birds of Prey is "The Deadly Years," where we face up to ten (!) of them and none are armed with any kind of weapon remotely as scary as the plasma bolt from BoT.) The time has come for the Romulan Empire to get rid of the Earth outposts in their system, but they don't want it to attract the attention of the whole of Star Fleet, so they decide to pick them off in engagements that are as quick as possible, not allowing time for distress signals to be sent out which might seem like equipment failures--at least at first. Maybe after so many decades of neglect, the communications from the Earth outposts back to Star Fleet was sometimes patchy anyhow and the Romulans knew this. Actually destroying the asteroid bases would take dozens of Romulan ships in a prolonged engagement, except for this one flagship with its shiny new plasma bolt launcher which can do it in one, or at most two shots per target. Things don't quite go smooth for the Romulans. We've all seen the episode.

--Aftermath of BoT. Once Enterprise leaves the scene and gets on with its other First Season adventures, The Romulan Senate finally checks the dial tone on the red phone to Earth. They announce that they have cloaking devices and new, very powerful guns but that they promise not to use them against the UFP if the Federation cedes all the pre-war territory back to them. Perhaps the UFP never got around to doing anything with these places and saw no real value to them, and agreed to the terms, thus establishing a new, much bigger RNZ that both sides agree to strictly avoid. This is where the events of "The Enterprise Incident" and "The Deadly Years" take place. The Romulan fleet is actually still pretty small and agrees to trade their cloaking technology to the Klingons in exchange for a generous pile of their technology, notably the D-7 hulls, their accompanying warp drive tech (a lot better than the Romulan's own fusion powered warp engines, whose power curves closely resemble Starfleet's impulse engines), and hand held equipment, including disruptors. There are a handful of hostile engagements between Romulan and Federation forces, but not many. Both sides actually do a good job holding to the new terms.

--In the much maligned episode of TAS "The Infinite Vulcan" there is mention of an uneasy truce with the Romulans (the actual lines imply there is an agreed upon Federation-Romulan and Federation-Klingon peace). I propose this is the post-"Balance of Terror" agreement to an expanded Zone surrounding a larger Romulan holding. The cooperation beginning with this truce over the next couple decades leads to positively sunny relations, leading to the Nanclus scenes of ST6 in the 2290s. However, due likely in part to the events surrounding the Praxis crisis, these relations break down and things get worse and worse until the Tomed Incident of 2311, which results in the Treaty of Algeron to reaffirm the big Neutral Zone and the Romulans withdraw from relations with the UFP totally until TNG times.

Thoughts?

--AM

 

[Crazy Eddie]

--Aftermath of BoT. Once Enterprise leaves the scene and gets on with its other First Season adventures, The Romulan Senate finally checks the dial tone on the red phone to Earth. They announce that they have cloaking devices and new, very powerful guns but that they promise not to use them against the UFP if the Federation cedes all the pre-war territory back to them. Perhaps the UFP never got around to doing anything with these places and saw no real value to them, and agreed to the terms, thus establishing a new, much bigger RNZ that both sides agree to strictly avoid. This is where the events of "The Enterprise Incident" and "The Deadly Years" take place. The Romulan fleet is actually still pretty small and agrees to trade their cloaking technology to the Klingons in exchange for a generous pile of their technology, notably the D-7 hulls, their accompanying warp drive tech (a lot better than the Romulan's own fusion powered warp engines, whose power curves closely resemble Starfleet's impulse engines), and hand held equipment, including disruptors. There are a handful of hostile engagements between Romulan and Federation forces, but not many. Both sides actually do a good job holding to the new terms.

--In the much maligned episode of TAS "The Infinite Vulcan" there is mention of an uneasy truce with the Romulans (the actual lines imply there is an agreed upon Federation-Romulan and Federation-Klingon peace). I propose this is the post-"Balance of Terror" agreement to an expanded Zone surrounding a larger Romulan holding. The cooperation beginning with this truce over the next couple decades leads to positively sunny relations, leading to the Nanclus scenes of ST6 in the 2290s. However, due likely in part to the events surrounding the Praxis crisis, these relations break down and things get worse and worse until the Tomed Incident of 2311, which results in the Treaty of Algeron to reaffirm the big Neutral Zone and the Romulans withdraw from relations with the UFP totally until TNG times.

Thoughts?

--AM

I offer an alternate proposal:

"Balance of Terror" was the Romulans' attempt to challenge the Federation's resolve and see if they would actually retaliate for the destruction of their outposts. The Federation, being the Federation, did NOT retaliate, which is what the hawks in the Senate were counting on. But the fact that the Enterprise chased down their bird of prey and destroyed it puts a huge damper in that argument, leading the Romulans to conclude that while the Federation does indeed lack the stomach for war, "They will totally kick our asses if we push them too hard." So war is averted, but the status quo is dead.

The Romulans switch to plan B: get new allies. Enter the Klingon Empire, which has just been forced into a totally anticlimactic truce with the Federation by the Organians. In exchange for an Alliance, the Klingons give weapons and technology to the Romulans which includes ships, weapons, sensors and propulsion tech. The new Klingon ships are far more powerful than the old Romulan vessels, allowing them to finally perfect their cloaking device with a more effective (and more energy intensive) version. The Klingons also grant them control of new systems and territory to colonize, which -- due to the language of the original treaty -- the Federation now has to accept since technically the Romulans never broke out of the neutral zone to claim that territory and it was GIVEN to them by someone else and they have no legal right to interfere with that territorial transfer. The original treaty remains in place, and the neutral zone is re-drawn to encompass the new Romulan systems as well, with similar boundaries and constraints, but with the Federation unable to quickly build outposts to monitor them and instead having to get its starships to patrol them on a regular basis.

But for some reason, the Klingon/Romulan alliance never results in the Romulans being used as proxies against the Federation OR in the Romulans being strong enough to go back to war, at least until 50 years later at the Tomed Incident. The most obvious reason -- implied in TUC and TFF -- is that the Romulans didn't read the fine print on their alliance and are now basically a client state of the Klingon Empire. And the Klingons are demanding tribute -- ALOT of tribute -- and imposing Klingon rules and regulations on the Romulans in a kind of arrangement that is, every day, less of an alliance and more of an occupation. By the time TUC comes around the Romulans are in full rebellion and they've even sent an ambassador to the Federation who seems singularly interested in sticking it to the Klingons whenever their backs are turned.

It's not until 20 years later, they're breaking out again, shaking off the yoke of Klingon oppression while at the same time challenging Federation borders. We have the "tomed incident" where they clash with the Federation for the first and only time in decades and then stay mostly off the Federation's radar; during this same period, they start carving out a chunk of the Klingon empire for themselves, formally annexing not just the systems they were "given" but also some traditionally Klingon outposts like Narendra III and even Khitomer. This gives some context to the loss of the Enterprise-C as well: while the Federation strongly condemns the Klingon Empire's conquering and exploitative policies, they STILL scramble to save Klingon civilians when they're caught in the line of fire. And some in the Empire eventually realize that the Federation is more likely to do right by Klingon citizens than the actual Klingon government, this makes them think maybe they should support leaders less antagonistic to the Federation.

Of course, that latter element falls apart with the TNG retcon that the Klingons remain an "Empire" rather than later becoming Federation members. What probably SHOULD have happened is that the Romulans came within a hair's breadth of conquering the Klingons before they, in desperation, applied for Federation membership and were therefore protected by the neutral zone treaty. The Romulan return in "The Neutral Zone" would therefore be a kind of watershed event, like the arrival of the Dominion on DS9, an event that changes the political landscape of the entire galaxy.

 

[Mytran]

How exactly could anything sneak by, you ask?

I note that you projected the circles out two about to grid squares from each one. This same line of outposts on the Z axis would just be a single donut-shaped ring of detection that a Romulan vessel would spend all of fifteen minutes flying OVER to avoid the entire picket line.

Two dimensional mapping presents a problem in all series of Star Trek, though. In this situation, all you need is a network of probes with similar scanning ranges to the outposts, laid out vertically to cover the RNZ as far as is deemed necessary by the treaty. The outposts would function as relay hubs for the network, hence why destroying them would render the listening post system useless. A similar setup of these probes could also be utilised on the Klingon border, as well as the Cardassian border during the following century.

...if the grid scale is in Earth radii it would be orbiting at about 20 million miles, about half the distance between Earth and Mars. Depending on the mass of Romulus, Remus would be in a horseshoe orbit and would be a "pseudosatellite" of Romulus

Well if nothing else I learned that such a thing as a horseshoe orbit exists! Fascinating concept.
Unfortunately, the graphic that Commander Data shows us in ST10 does not bear that out:

The scale could be the radius of a larger planet (say, Vulcan or Andor) in which case each unit is about 10,000km. Each grid square is therefore about 50 million kilometers, or about one third of an AU. Either way, this would be consistent with later depictions of warp speed where several minutes travel time would cover interplanetary distances, rather than interstellar ones.

That sounds suspiciously like you're placing the RNZ at a Jovian equivalent orbit. Unfortunately, this would put Romulus much too far away from the sun, at around 3.3AUs. Chilly would be an understatement!
It's only a rough mockup, but here's how that scenario would appear:

Conversely, here's how the small RNZ would look if Romulus were on the Earth orbital plane:

I played around with different scales and even if Romulus were as far out as Mars (the very extreme of the Goldilocks Zone) then the outposts would be on the inner edge of the asteroid belt - not too bad

The one thing I can't fathom is the scale grid. For a Romulus between Earth & Mars a grid would be anywhere from 15 to 21 million KM, which doesn't seem to break down into 6 or 5000 units of anything imperial or metric, and radii or circumferences of Earth are not helping either

BTW...
Thanks to @Crazy Eddie and @Albertese for suggesting different scenarios in which the single-system model of BOT could form the basis of a scenario in which the Romulans can suddenly gain large swathes of territory in the next few months. I must admit, this was my biggest objection to the "small RNZ" as in The Deadly Years the Enterprise takes a short cut through the RNZ (an absurd notion if it were still a single system by this point), the planet Eden is located on the other side of the RNZ (but not in the Romulan system) and the RNZ is large enough by the events of Enterprise Incident that the Enterprise can warp across it for several minutes straight.
So, we can imagine the Klingon Neutral Zone, the (new) Romulan Neutral Zone, and the original RNZ from BOT, which apparently is still in existence at the time of TWOK:

This tiny RNZ has always been a troublesome part of TWOK but it makes sense that the Romulans (being fiercely territorial) would keep their original non-exclusion zone around their home system. Indeed, their system may be on the BORDER of the new RNZ (which may not yet be in its final TNG location), which explains why Enterprise is so close to it in the Kobyashi Maru simulation.

 

[Albertese]

It makes sense to me. In fact, I've been thinking about this all day at work and I think that some version of this small RNZ-to-big RNZ model that me and @Crazy Eddie came up with is the best model and will be part of my head cannon going forward.

And the ST2 graphic was in my brain when I was typing this last night, but I don't think I mentioned it, so I thank you, @Mytran for bringing it into the discussion since I forgot about it.

My only disagreement with your map analysis, regarding the scaling issue, is that you are assuming the star Romulus and Remus (Romii?) are orbiting is the same as Sol. But we have no real reason to assume that, do we? Indeed, if it was this star which is scheduled to go supernova* and destroy Romulus in the Prime Universe background to Star Trek (2009) then it would necessarily be at least 8 solar masses, and therefore much larger and hotter, moving the "Goldilocks" zone much farther out. A much wider Romulan orbit would be perfectly expected. So, without bothering to actually calculate anything using real numbers, I'd be willing to stake a modest bet on a Jupiter orbit actually being in the habitable range of such an old and massive star.

--Alex
_________
*The supernova in the story would have to have been the Romulan homestar. The destructive energies from a detonating star do not travel faster than light speed, so, since the Romulans were evidently caught off guard and had to stake it all on Spock's crazy antics with the Red Matter, we have to assume they did not have the multiple years of notice they would have had were it a "nearby star" in the galactic neighborhood sense.

 

[MAGolding]

Anyone remember the James Blish adaptations of the original series episodes? Now all of them were far too short, especially in the case of "Balance of Terror".
But Blish's written version of "Balance of Terror" IIRC suggests that the Federation outposts and the Romulan Neutral Zone actually surround the home solar system of the Romulans.
If this was true, then it is obvious how the Bird of Prey could've attacked using only sublight impulse engines and also explains why there was a comet with a tail near the Neutral Zone as comets can only have tails when near a star.

But the problem then is how can the Romulans be one of the major bad asses of the galaxy if their "empire" consists of only one solar system.

The official TOS warp factors were much too slow for some of the travel times in TOS. Thus there are many theories that seek to explain that and other mysteries and contradictions about space travel in Star Trek. One theory is that some interstellar travel in Star Trek. is done by using warp drive to travel across space from star to star, and some other interstellar travel, especially long distance travel, is done by traveling through some type of space warps or wormholes from star system to star system. A ship would use the space warps to disappear from one star system and instantly appear in another, tens or hundreds or thousands of light years away.

So the Romulans would have been expanding both by using some FTL drive and by going through space warps to distant star systems. And a map of the Romulan Star Empire would look like a bunch of spheroids or ellipsoids scattered through 3-D space. And during the Romulan War the Romulans in the space around Romulus and Remus were driven back star by star until they had only the Romulus/Remus system left and Earth was preparing to attack and destroy the capital worlds.

So the Romulans negotiated a treaty via radio giving up all their stars systems around their home system, and establishing a spherical shell neutral zone around their home system. But the treaty didn't force the Romulans to give up the star systems they reached through space warps from their their home solar system. It permitted the Romulans to keep on expanding from the stars systems they reached through those space warps. But whenever Earth, or later the Federation, expanded through the space warps and colonized or annexed a planet sufficiently near to a Romulan planet, they had the right to notify the Romulans and demand that the Romulans agree to the creation of another neutral zone segment around that Romulan star system or group of star systems.

And now the Romulan Star Empire looks like a bigger bunch of spheroids or ellipsoids scattered through 3-D space, some with Neutral Zone segments around them and some without.

Or maybe the treaty requires the Romulans to send by subspace radio the coordinates of every star system they annex and colonize through the space warps, and agree to not expand through space from star to star using FTL space drive but only expand by travelling through the space warps and only annexing each single star system around each space warp.

Note that in "The Deadly Years" a segment of the Romulan Neutral Zone is near Gamma Hydra (Hydrae) about 133.8 light years from Earth, and in "Whom Gods Destroy" Spock mentions a Romulan ship destroyed near Tau Ceti, about 11.9 light years from Earth. It would certainly be a lot safer for Earth if there were two separate and small Romulan Neutral Zone segments near Tau Ceti and Gamma Hydrae instead of one huge Romulan Neutral Zone segment stretching from Tau Ceti to Gamma Hydrae.

As late as the era of TNG, DS9, and Voyager, there is still a Romulan Neutral Zone, but the Romulan Star Empire is a major power in the region near Earth, providing vital reinforcements to the Federation and the Klingons when they were loosing the Dominion War and turning the tide.

As early as "Balance of Terror" there was a strong indication that even though the Romulans can't pass through the Neutral Zone surrounding their home system, they rule many other star systems far beyond it.

COMMANDER: Danger and I are old companions.
CENTURION: We've seen a hundred campaigns together, and still I do not understand you.

If they have seen a hundred campaigns together, probably most or all of them after the Romulan Neutral zone has been established around Romulus and Remus a century before the episode, they have probably been fighting and conquering in space battles in distant star systems tens, hundreds, and thousands of light years from Romulus and Remus.

I have considered the possibility that maybe the Romulan Neutral Zone covers the mouth of a wormhole or spacewarps leading from near the center of the Federation to Romulan Star System. So Starships travel through the wormhole or space warp to the Romulus system and emerge from the mouth and bring supplies to the outposts and patrol between the outposts looking for any Romulan attempt to try to reach the moth of the wormhole or space warp.

If Romulan ships can cruise at warp factor 6, 216 times the speed of light, and if the Romulan star system is 2,160 light years from the main worlds of the Federation, it would take a Romulan invasion force 10 years to reach the main worlds of the Federation from the Romulus system, which may be too long for the Romulans to attempt.

In "Redemption Part II" the Romulans used cloaked ships to send vital war supplies to the part of the Klingon Empire controlled by the Duras faction, since apparently Gowron's faction controls the Klingon manufacturing planets and other sources of supplies. Since proof of Romulan support would turn all Klingons against the Duras faction and cause involvement by other powers, Captain Picard leads a Federation task force of 23 ships to operate a tachyon detection grid along the border, that will detect any cloaked Romulan ships trying to cross.

One would expect that the Romulan-Klingon border might stretch for hundreds of light years in each direction and cover tens of thousand of square light years. But the 23 Starfleet ships take up a disc shaped formation that seems to be only a few miles in diameter. how could that cover the entire Romulan-Klingon border?

Maybe there is a neutral or unclaimed star system A near the Romulan border, and a neutral or unclaimed stars system B near the Klingon border, that could be hundreds or thousands of light years apart, but there is a space warp system A and System B that connects them and allows almost instant travel between system A and system B. And maybe Picard's fleet flew into the space warp between system A and system B and set up a detection grid covering the entire diameter of the space warp, which might be only a few miles.

Maybe it would take many years for the Romulans to get the supplies to the Duras faction if they can't travel from system A to system B, which would be too late for the Duras faction that needs the supplies immediately.

No doubt there are problems with this theory, but it seems that any other theory would have much stronger problems.

That is my explanation for how the Romulans have a mighty space empire even though their home solar system is surrounded by a Neutral Zone they cannot cross.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Two dimensional mapping presents a problem in all series of Star Trek, though.

Yes, and we should tend to favor interpretations that minimize those problems as much as possible.

Well if nothing else I learned that such a thing as a horseshoe orbit exists! Fascinating concept.
Unfortunately, the graphic that Commander Data shows us in ST10 does not bear that out

It doesn't really contradict it either. the Enterprise's computer may simply not be setup to properly display the orbital path of a horseshoe orbit, and at the moment that Remus gets pulled into the lower path, the computer would simply re-draw its orbital path to the new parameters.

That sounds suspiciously like you're placing the RNZ at a Jovian equivalent orbit. Unfortunately, this would put Romulus much too far away from the sun, at around 3.3AUs. Chilly would be an understatement!

No, because look at the position of Romulus on that same chart. The central star would be something a lot brighter and hotter than Sol, which means its habitable zone is ALOT farther out than it is in the Sol system.

Thus the habitable zone in this case would be about where Sol's asteroid belt is located. The other chart you posted assumes a system identical to Sol, which it very well could be... but these are Romulans we're talking about, refugees from the Vulcan Madness. When they were looking for a new home, they would have been looking for a system more similar to Vulcan than Sol, which implies they found a planet around a much brighter, more intense star than humans would normally find comfortable. So a slightly wider habitable zone is probably a safe assumption.

I'd guess the orbit of the outposts is somewhere around 3 to 4 AUs from the star, in which case Romulus and Remus would be just inside the orbit of Mars.

Which seems to tally well with your own guesses:

I played around with different scales and even if Romulus were as far out as Mars (the very extreme of the Goldilocks Zone) then the outposts would be on the inner edge of the asteroid belt - not too bad

That's what I figured. And with a brighter, Vulcan-like star, BOTH planets would be right smack dab in the middle of the zone,

The one thing I can't fathom is the scale grid. For a Romulus between Earth & Mars a grid would be anywhere from 15 to 21 million KM, which doesn't seem to break down into 6 or 5000 units of anything imperial or metric, and radii or circumferences of Earth are not helping either

Judging by the half circle in the legend, it's obvious the radii of SOMETHING, we just don't know what. Maybe some standardized unit that represents the radius of the average M-class planet?

So, we can imagine the Klingon Neutral Zone, the (new) Romulan Neutral Zone, and the original RNZ from BOT, which apparently is still in existence at the time of TWOK:

This tiny RNZ has always been a troublesome part of TWOK but it makes sense that the Romulans (being fiercely territorial) would keep their original non-exclusion zone around their home system. Indeed, their system may be on the BORDER of the new RNZ (which may not yet be in its final TNG location), which explains why Enterprise is so close to it in the Kobyashi Maru simulation.

But think about this: there is no "Klingon neutral zone" to begin with. The Klingons and the Federation aren't separated by a neutral zone, that's the border with ROMULAN space.

And the location given in wrath of khan -- Gamma Hydra, section 10 -- corresponds to the same location in "The Deadly Years." So it's clearly meant to be the ROMULAN neutral zone anyway. But Enterprise gets bounced by three KLINGON ships in the zone... well, okay, the real reason is because they were re-using stock footage from TMP, but in universe, we can conclude that the Klingons have a strong presence in Romulan space now and by the 2280s they are patrolling Romulan space, enforcing the zone on Romulus' behalf. IOW, the Kobyashi Maru scenario reflects the fact that Romulus is under Klingon occupation and the Klingons are not as friendly to civilian shipping as the Romulans might have been in the past.

 

[Samuel]

Several Star Trek

It makes sense to me. In fact, I've been thinking about this all day at work and I think that some version of this small RNZ-to-big RNZ model that me and @Crazy Eddie came up with is the best model and will be part of my head cannon going forward.

And the ST2 graphic was in my brain when I was typing this last night, but I don't think I mentioned it, so I thank you, @Mytran for bringing it into the discussion since I forgot about it.

My only disagreement with your map analysis, regarding the scaling issue, is that you are assuming the star Romulus and Remus (Romii?) are orbiting is the same as Sol. But we have no real reason to assume that, do we? Indeed, if it was this star which is scheduled to go supernova* and destroy Romulus in the Prime Universe background to Star Trek (2009) then it would necessarily be at least 8 solar masses, and therefore much larger and hotter, moving the "Goldilocks" zone much farther out. A much wider Romulan orbit would be perfectly expected. So, without bothering to actually calculate anything using real numbers, I'd be willing to stake a modest bet on a Jupiter orbit actually being in the habitable range of such an old and massive star.

--Alex
_________
*The supernova in the story would have to have been the Romulan homestar. The destructive energies from a detonating star do not travel faster than light speed, so, since the Romulans were evidently caught off guard and had to stake it all on Spock's crazy antics with the Red Matter, we have to assume they did not have the multiple years of notice they would have had were it a "nearby star" in the galactic neighborhood sense.

Several Star Trek novels (again, I know NOT canon) have said that a supernova (or another type of large explosion like Praxis) has the effect of creating an extremely destructive "hyperspace wave" that can catch and destroy vessels and worlds many light years away or while traveling faster than light.

Despite what Kirk says in "The Lights of Zetar" that no natural phenomena can travel faster than light we already know from an earlier episode that the so called "ion storms" can severely damage ships traveling at warp speed.

 

[Timo]

Assorted items:

The map segment we see is wholly entitled to a significant degree of bias. That is, the segment obviously describes a unique and uniquely important stretch of the RNZ, the one closest to Romulus. This more or less independently of what shape the RNZ holds outside the map segment. And obviously Romulus is significantly closer to the RNZ than Earth is.

Thus, it is logical, that is, intuitively attractive for us humans, to place Outpost 1 there, completely regardless of whether the total number of Outposts is twelve or a million. It is also logical, that is, attractive, for each arriving patrol starship to start her rounds there.

Conversely, it is attractive for the Romulans to punch a hole in the defenses right there. If they intend to sally out through the hole with regular, non-invisible ships, their best chance is if the big fleet base at Romulus is not too far away from it. That's how they maximize the surprise; choosing a "less obvious" point would serve no purpose, as the very emergence of the hole is the sufficient element of surprise.

Scale-wise, this more or less dictates the "large" interpretation. Otherwise, Romulus would be on whichever side of the Star Empire depending of the time of the year; with 1 grid = 1 ly or thereabouts, Romulus is immobile and the "Outpost 1 = right here" thing makes sense.

As for the supernova, not only does the movie fail to provide any alternative suspects besides the Homestar, it in fact explicitly shows that it is the Homestar that blows, in the high speed camera run from Romulus to said star and back!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Assorted items:

The map segment we see is wholly entitled to a significant degree of bias. That is, the segment obviously describes a unique and uniquely important stretch of the RNZ, the one closest to Romulus. This more or less independently of what shape the RNZ holds outside the map segment. And obviously Romulus is significantly closer to the RNZ than Earth is.

Thus, it is logical, that is, intuitively attractive for us humans, to place Outpost 1 there, completely regardless of whether the total number of Outposts is twelve or a million. It is also logical, that is, attractive, for each arriving patrol starship to start her rounds there.

Conversely, it is attractive for the Romulans to punch a hole in the defenses right there. If they intend to sally out through the hole with regular, non-invisible ships, their best chance is if the big fleet base at Romulus is not too far away from it. That's how they maximize the surprise; choosing a "less obvious" point would serve no purpose, as the very emergence of the hole is the sufficient element of surprise.

Scale-wise, this more or less dictates the "large" interpretation.

The four or five bad assumptions built into the above do, yes. But if the intent was to punch through the "hole" with a large fleet of conventional ships, the fact that those ships never appeared, nor did they ever get involved in the fight with the Enterprise, is something of an anomaly. More importantly, given a two dimensional border, "punching through" isn't even necessary since the putative fleet could just as easily go around them (at a larger scale, that is). The Enterprise's assumption -- and it is a good one -- is that the Romulans are testing the border to see what the Federation will actually do, and if the Enterprise doesn't engage the bird of prey NOW, it will embolden the Romulans to escalate further attacks.

Otherwise, Romulus would be on whichever side of the Star Empire depending of the time of the year; with 1 grid = 1 ly or thereabouts, Romulus is immobile and the "Outpost 1 = right here" thing makes sense.

Except Outpost 1 isn't close to Romulus at all, and it's the only one that wasn't attacked. The bird of prey hit Outpost 2 first, then 3. For some reason they also hit Outpost 8, which makes almost NO sense in this scenario, unless Outpost 8 was attacked first by the Romulans on their way out and it only hit outposts 2 and 3 on the way back home.

The time of year is just incidental. If the Romulans had tried this stunt two months later, they would have hit outposts 12, 13, 14 and 19.

 

[Mytran]

...the ST2 graphic was in my brain when I was typing this last night, but I don't think I mentioned it, so I thank you, @Mytran for bringing it into the discussion since I forgot about it.

That's fine, I forgot to include the Klingon battlecruiser presence in my post! (Thanks @Crazy Eddie for filling in that missing info)

My only disagreement with your map analysis, regarding the scaling issue, is that you are assuming the star Romulus and Remus (Romii?) are orbiting is the same as Sol. But we have no real reason to assume that, do we? Indeed, if it was this star which is scheduled to go supernova* and destroy Romulus in the Prime Universe background to Star Trek (2009) then it would necessarily be at least 8 solar masses, and therefore much larger and hotter, moving the "Goldilocks" zone much farther out. A much wider Romulan orbit would be perfectly expected. So, without bothering to actually calculate anything using real numbers, I'd be willing to stake a modest bet on a Jupiter orbit actually being in the habitable range of such an old and massive star.

...these are Romulans we're talking about, refugees from the Vulcan Madness. When they were looking for a new home, they would have been looking for a system more similar to Vulcan than Sol, which implies they found a planet around a much brighter, more intense star than humans would normally find comfortable. So a slightly wider habitable zone is probably a safe assumption.

My first thought would be that the banished Romulans would seek a star similar to their native Vulcan (and in fact I checked out orbits as close as Venus). However, depictions of Romulus onscreen do not match the hot, arid planet of their origin.
Maybe they found an old (red) sun that matched the Vulcan star, but with planet sufficiently distance to provide a more moderate environment?
I'll check some more map layouts and see how they fare with the dreaded scale ruler

As for the supernova, not only does the movie fail to provide any alternative suspects besides the Homestar, it in fact explicitly shows that it is the Homestar that blows, in the high speed camera run from Romulus to said star and back!

Hmm, looks like a rewatch of ST11 is in order

The supernova in the story would have to have been the Romulan homestar. The destructive energies from a detonating star do not travel faster than light speed, so, since the Romulans were evidently caught off guard and had to stake it all on Spock's crazy antics with the Red Matter, we have to assume they did not have the multiple years of notice they would have had were it a "nearby star" in the galactic neighborhood sense.

Several Star Trek novels (again, I know NOT canon) have said that a supernova (or another type of large explosion like Praxis) has the effect of creating an extremely destructive "hyperspace wave" that can catch and destroy vessels and worlds many light years away or while travelling faster than light.

Regardless of whether the Hobus star is at the centre of the Romulan system or not, OldSpock specifically says that the supernova threatens to destroy the galaxy. Really, the only way that that is possible is through one of those beta-canon subspace shockwaves. And although I don't play Star Trek Online, they have an interesting take on it:

In the video game Star Trek Online, the supernova that destroyed Romulus was intentionally caused by a faction of Romulans following the orders of the Iconians. The game's backstory, which included the Countdown comics, also explained the physical impossibility of a star in another system destroying Romulus with no possible evacuation time by stating that the supernova's shock wave propagated through subspace at faster-than-light speeds (implied in game to be the result of the manner by which the nova was induced).

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Romulus

Enterprise's computer may simply not be setup to properly display the orbital path of a horseshoe orbit, and at the moment that Remus gets pulled into the lower path, the computer would simply re-draw its orbital path to the new parameters.

Really? The finest 24th century computers couldn't handle this concept for a basic simulation? Time to download the latest updates at the next starbase layover, methinks...

Judging by the half circle in the legend, it's obvious the radii of SOMETHING, we just don't know what. Maybe some standardized unit that represents the radius of the average M-class planet?

Maybe, but it's a really odd thing to use a scale marker. If I can get the grid to work with something I'll be happy

But think about this: there is no "Klingon neutral zone" to begin with. The Klingons and the Federation aren't separated by a neutral zone, that's the border with ROMULAN space.

From TWOK onwards, a Klingon Neutral Zone was often referenced in trek movies and episodes

The map segment we see is wholly entitled to a significant degree of bias. That is, the segment obviously describes a unique and uniquely important stretch of the RNZ, the one closest to Romulus. This more or less independently of what shape the RNZ holds outside the map segment. And obviously Romulus is significantly closer to the RNZ than Earth is.

Maybe I missed something, but how is this obvious? The only reason that this portion of the RNZ is shown is that it's the section that's under attack at that particular moment. Outpost 8 (later referred to in dialogue) isn't even on the map!

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Really? The finest 24th century computers couldn't handle this concept for a basic simulation?

Why would they bother to simulate that? Remember, the computer didn't even draw the proper path of the Nexus until Picard specifically told it to take Armagosa's destruction into account. If Data told the computer to project the path of Remus' orbit for the next two hundred years, it would probably draw a standard horseshoe orbit; if he told it to draw that orbit for the next two thousand years, we would probably see a horseshoe orbit that slowly widens over time until Remus is ejected out of the system and flung out into deep space.

OTOH... well, this is the Enterprise-E we're talking about. It wouldn't be the FIRST time that ship's computers proved hilariously unreliable.

From TWOK onwards, a Klingon Neutral Zone was often referenced in trek movies and episodes

The thing is, it was never called a "Klingon neutral zone." That exact phrase is never actually used. So it's puzzling as to why the Klingons keep talking about "the Federation neutral zone" and Starfleet talk about the neutral zone as having something to do with the Klingons. The answer is, the Klingons OWN Romulus now, so "giving" old Klingon colonies to the Romulans is a sneaky way of projecting their presence by proxy since Romulan space comes with a built in buffer zone that the Federation can't cross.

And in TUC, they want to talk about the "dismantling of starbases" along the neutral zone and an end to hostilies. Combined with the language of the Khitomer conference, this implies that the Klingons want to renegotiate the terms of the treaty in a way that will end the neutral zone once and for all and possibly open their borders to trade with other Federation neighbors. This sounds good for the Klingons, of course, but the Romulans would be COMPLETELY screwed over, since they no longer have any say over how those territories they were "given" are being administered or what's happening to them. This, more than anything, would explain why Nonclus is working with Starfleet to undermine the Klingons; in the chaos that follows, Romulus will be able to regain its independence and maybe KEEP a few of those "given" systems for themselves.