Is TUC a better movie if it's Saavik who betrays the crew?

[2takesfrakes]

No. I think some writers or movie makers had expressed "Vulcan Logic" has its own interpretation of ethics. Vulcanians or Vulcans are not one dimensional; it's presented these characters don't all act like Spock. Something I didn't like with Robin Curtis character.

Vulcans can't help but to be played as one-dimensional, because of there being NO emotional displays. That's one thing. For another, playing all the aliens the same way in STAR TREK is what makes them "alien" in the first place. There's no other way to do it. Even rock monsters and glowing orb aliens in this franchise emote like only Humans can. "The Squire of Gothos," for example, has them getting all Family Values, like "Father Knows Best" or some shite. In STAR TREK's defense, anything "made-up" alien-wise, would have a hard time registering with most audiences, anyway. Like ... "why's that alien just sitting there, fluffing his feathered mane?" ... "That's the way he goes about sampling his environment!" So, I get that ... the show's there to entertain, not simulate actual predictions of what aliens are like. Still, when you've got emotional Vulcans who are thrown in for "variety's" sake ... well, why have them be Vulcan at all, then? Doesn't make a lot of sense, really. But that's entertainment ... what we crave for, inside.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Vulcanians or Vulcans battle their emotions differently from one another and that's how I see them.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Maternity leave often puts women's careers on hold ;-p

What???
Ooooh! Retcons from comic books, magazines, and other sources which were not established on film... which includes Memory Alpha.

 

[Pauln6]

What???
Ooooh! Retcons from comic books, magazines, and other sources which were not established on film... which includes Memory Alpha.

Missed opportunities to add layers to the characters!

I have a soft spot for Alley's Saavik because I read the novelisation before seeing the movie in which Saavik is quite a complex, intriguing character with serious anger management issues. When I view Curtis's Saavik, Nimoy rowed too far back from that IMO.

I can see Alley's stifled performance being more engaging than Catrall's but at the same time Curtis could have delivered something altogether more ruthless.

Layering on a romantic element for Spock would have made betrayal for him as painful as it would have been for the audience.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Kim Cattral did a tremendous performance and created an interesting Vulcan, she didn't ape Kirstie Alley

Agreed. I really like Cattrall's performance in STVI. She's the big new element in the crew, and she really helps mix things up.

To me, I just don't see Valeris as the Saavik wannabe. Maybe you think a cut and paste approach was obvious, and it may have been, but I and fans who loved the real Saavik would like an appropriate backstory of what she's been doing since. If it was a cut and paste effort, it's another chink in a rushed through script which never had much weight IMO.

It's my understanding that the part didn't change that much from draft to draft. Maybe someone who's read the various drafts of the STVI script can clarify. And as you say, it was a rush job, so they likely didn't do terribly extensive changes.

I would demand Saavik in the conference room with senior brass, by this time I would think she would've earned the rank of Commander. And also, having a moment where it's Kirk, this time, giving the com to Saavik to take the new Enterprise out of space dock. You are right, it was obvious based on those lines.

I personally doubt that Saavik would've been a Commander, as the Enterprise crew was already top-heavy with upper brass, with three Captains (Kirk, Spock, and Scotty) and three Commanders (McCoy, Uhura, and Chekov). At most, I could see her being a Lt. Commander, maybe.

And yeah, the Spacedock thing was another potential callback to TWOK, right down to Saavik/Valeris quoting regulations to Kirk. That could've been cute.

But honestly, probably the only thing they changed outside of the name was the bit about Lt. Valeris being the first Vulcan to graduate at the top of her class from the Academy, implying that she was a somewhat recent graduate. (And since it doesn't make much sense for a super-smart Vulcan never to have graduated at the top of their class before, I reconcile that in my headcanon by imagining that Valeris graduated from the top of her class at Starfleet Command School).

 

[Commishsleer]

To me Catrall was just acting like Samantha in TUC except for her hair, outfits and not talking about sex all the time.
If there were some explanation for her not acting like a Vulcan. I know her hatred of Klingons was in the novelisation but they didn't show it on screen.
Look I don't hate the performance but why not have her played by a human - except the Spock betrayal I suppose - which was a pretty significant part of the story.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Look I don't hate the performance but why not have her played by a human...

Valeris was played a human. Unless there's something that Ms. Cattrall is not telling us...

 

[Pauln6]

Playing a Vulcan as both emotionless AND interesting is quite a skill. I think Meyer just didn't get Vulcans and encouraged the actors to display emotion rather than someone stifling said emotion. Alley just about got away with it, although without her Romulan heritage, crying at Spock's funeral was OTT.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Not to rationalize Spock's behavior, but the location of the peace conference is not what causes him to do the mind meld. Kirk wants the "names" of the other conspirators, something Sulu knows nothing about. It's only after they realize how high up the conspiracy goes (Cartright) that Kirk asks for the location of the conference, knowing the only way they can stop a disaster is to go there themselves.

Even the mindmeld was, seemingly, at Kirk's urging. It's "subtle," but as Spock's approaching the defiant Valeris, Kirk says, "... Spock!" in a way that implies an order of some kind and then Spock forces the meld on her, under threat of Vulcan neck pinch, with which his other hand is at the ready. Once Spock returned from the grave, as it were, he seems to have undergone a movie-Spock transformation ...

Like when he slapped the phaser out of Valeris' hand, earlier, it's so not Spock. But what could Nimoy do? He pulled rank with Shatner on Spock not betraying Kirk in TFF, but he just lets his rough treatment with Valeris fly. Maybe he felt like he'd been getting his way alot, already, with Meyers and didn't want to overplay his hand -- but who knows?

 

[Maurice]

Spock's not the same Spock after TMP, and certainly not after Genesis. He's more human. And what Nimoy argued in TFF is that Spock would not turn on Kirk, regardless of whatever Jiggery Pokery Sybok pulled. So I don't know that Nimoy's concerns about the one are all that relevant to the other.

 

[tharpdevenport]

Is TUC a better movie if it's Saavik who betrays the crew?

Sure, why not. It's all because Kirk didn't listen to her and Spock told her off, in TWoK. Now she wants ... REVENGE!

Sweet sweet illogical revenge.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Like when he slapped the phaser out of Valeris' hand, earlier, it's so not Spock. But what could Nimoy do? He pulled rank with Shatner on Spock not betraying Kirk in TFF, but he just lets his rough treatment with Valeris fly. Maybe he felt like he'd been getting his way alot, already, with Meyers and didn't want to overplay his hand -- but who knows?

Nimoy was a producer on the movie. I really don't see him not speaking his mind when it comes to the characterization of his signature character. I think we have to assume that if he played it, he was okay with it.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Nimoy was a producer on the movie. I really don't see him not speaking his mind when it comes to the characterization of his signature character. I think we have to assume that if he played it, he was okay with it.

It would certainly appear that way. More's the pity.

 

[Timo]

...You think the Spock of TOS would not have slapped the phaser aside?

What would he have done instead? He was all for standing back and making snarky remarks when there was nothing dramatic happening - but if guns were being pointed, he would kick, punch, strangle and throw. And perhaps, just perhaps, apply the nerve pinch as a coup de grace.

We have basically never seen the TOS Spock disappointed, except perhaps at himself. But when he's angry, I'm happy he's not angry at, say, me. Punching Valeris would probably not have been out of line for the TOS character, either...

Timo Saloniemi