Spoilers Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Grading & Discussion

[TREK_GOD_1]

There was no romantic interest. They mean a lot to each other because they're friends. None of the two had real friends before it seems. Friends who don't leave the other behind. That is why they connect. They both have a history of being alone and now they can be there for each other, as friends.

If you're referring to Finn and Rey, the romantic feeling was there; in TFA, Finn expressed that not long after their escape in the Falcon (te "boyfriend" question), plainly laying it out there that their care for each other was not purely "lost child"/"buddy-buddy", Moreover, and in the final moments of TLJ, the look on Rey's face as she watched Finn tending to Rose said it all: after her pure jot of reuniting with Finn, the Rose moment left her feeling as if her chance had slipped away. She was not going to behave that way from the thought of Finn simply making a new friend. There was minor producer obligation to build on what was established in TFA, but the general treatment of Finn (covered pages ago) and the gross blowback from parts of the fan community to even the suggestion of a Finn-Rey romance had Rose dropped in with her out-of-nowhere "love" line.

Further, every SW trilogy follows a formula with a building romance between main characters; we know who played that part in the OT & PT, and its clear which ST characters were placed in that category. Two films in, and there's no indication Finn or Rey felt anything for anyone else on that level, despite some fans trying to wish that last-second Poe introduction into a storybook romance for the ages.

 

[Set Harth]

in TFA, Finn expressed that not long after their escape in the Falcon (te "boyfriend" question), plainly laying it out there that their care for each other was not purely "lost child"/"buddy-buddy"

But that's just a pass coming from Finn. As far as we know, it's one-sided. It's hardly an expression of how they feel about 'each other'.

 

[Tuskin38]

I saw a great explanation of Poe and Holdo's interaction in the movie, putting it in tags as it is a bit long

Spoiler

For the Holdo/ Poe stuff, there's a very good reason Holdo didn't tell Poe anything about the plan. First off, she's the Vice-Admiral and head of the entire organization. Poe is a Captain, recently demoted from Commander. Who just got a lot of people killed on a dangerous stunt. Holdo didn't have to tell Poe about the plan because that's not how military organizations work. If your commanding officer gives you an order, it can be part of your duty to express your feelings regarding it. However, once that has been said, it is still your job to follow through with that order, regardless of your feelings on it. Doing your own thing is reckless and dangerous, and it can- and did- get people killed. Poe was ordered to man his station. Which was kind of important as they were under constant attack and he might be needed at a moments notice. Instead he decided to play cowboy and make up his own plan because he didn't like what his boss told him, because it wasn't what he would do.

Secondly, Holdo had no idea how they were being tracked through Hyperspace. Anyone or anything could be a spy, so Holdo had to keep her cards close to her vest. And, again, Poe was just a recently demoted Captain- not one of the higher chain of command. Now, what could have changed that is when Poe figured out how they were being tracked, he could have told Holdo. Let her know how the First Order was finding them. Instead, because he didn't like the way Holdo talked to him, he made up his own plan. Which, again, got people killed. Had he told Holdo, she could have let him know what they were going to do and why running off to the Casino Planet isn't a good idea.

Source: https://www.deviantart.com/art/The-Last-Jedi-Spoilers-722620998 (comments)

 

[Campe]

I saw a great explanation of Poe and Holdo's interaction in the movie, putting it in tags as it is a bit long

Spoiler

For the Holdo/ Poe stuff, there's a very good reason Holdo didn't tell Poe anything about the plan. First off, she's the Vice-Admiral and head of the entire organization. Poe is a Captain, recently demoted from Commander. Who just got a lot of people killed on a dangerous stunt. Holdo didn't have to tell Poe about the plan because that's not how military organizations work. If your commanding officer gives you an order, it can be part of your duty to express your feelings regarding it. However, once that has been said, it is still your job to follow through with that order, regardless of your feelings on it. Doing your own thing is reckless and dangerous, and it can- and did- get people killed. Poe was ordered to man his station. Which was kind of important as they were under constant attack and he might be needed at a moments notice. Instead he decided to play cowboy and make up his own plan because he didn't like what his boss told him, because it wasn't what he would do.

Secondly, Holdo had no idea how they were being tracked through Hyperspace. Anyone or anything could be a spy, so Holdo had to keep her cards close to her vest. And, again, Poe was just a recently demoted Captain- not one of the higher chain of command. Now, what could have changed that is when Poe figured out how they were being tracked, he could have told Holdo. Let her know how the First Order was finding them. Instead, because he didn't like the way Holdo talked to him, he made up his own plan. Which, again, got people killed. Had he told Holdo, she could have let him know what they were going to do and why running off to the Casino Planet isn't a good idea.

Source: https://www.deviantart.com/art/The-Last-Jedi-Spoilers-722620998 (comments)

Naaah, hes a main character. Therefore, he must know ALL! Lol

 

[Ithekro]

Thrawn is a canon character in Star Wars now thanks to Star Wars: Rebels. And is blue with red eyes. It depends on what they do for the remains of Rebel's final season on if Thrawn will still be around for later projects, or if they will kill him off near the end of Rebels (they just introduced his bodyguard/assassin Ruhk.) However if he lives past Rebels, I could see them using him later. Grand Admiral Thrawn's trilogy could be told again, even if it is without the Heroes of Yavin. Or at least not all of them....Ruhk's later motivations were heavily dependent on Leia and the direct connection to Darth Vader. There is a huge three decade gap between films were very little is known. It is supposed that the New Republic had basically peace for much of that time, and the remains of the Empire surrendered following Jakku and only the hardcore nutjobs stole into the Unknown Regions to set up the First Order. Thrawn and his people are from the Unknown Regions, and quite possibly might have issues with the First Order. and/or Snoke.

 

[DarKush]

The problem is, I've seen arguments that a reboot would be preferred to the ST.

Partially, yes. I am glad that the franchises I enjoy are continuing, regardless of whether or not I think they are "good." I wish for things all the time, but often times I get told not to do so, or that what the production teams are doing are "wrong" and that the fans somehow know better.

Respectfully, I disagree. I don't think fans know better. I certainly would love to think that I do and certainly my mad ramblings across several boards would bear evidence to my willingness to speak my mind on the matter.

The larger frustration that I have is a tension of acceptance of offered material and a desire for different material. I didn't want to go in to TLJ wishing it was different-I wanted to engage it as it was presented. I didn't think it was perfect, but it was entertaining at a level that I was not expecting.

The reason I don't think the Thrawn trilogy will adapt well is because of the reaction to TLJ. There are already prebuilt expectations that cannot be fulfilled even though LFL has tried. They distance the material from the old EU and the comparisons get made (Jacen=Kylo?). They set it 30 years in the future and people complain of changes. They don't change things and complaints fume over Starkiller.

The larger point is that if this baggage comes with this ST and divorced of any books, imagine the backlash when something is cut out of the books, or added to.

I agree with you about built in expectations being a sticking point. However with a property as big as Star Wars there are going to be built in expectations of them producing a quality film, at the very least. I don’t see this so much as a built-in expectations about where the story of TLJ or the sequels should go, but how they treat the original heroes. The handling-or mishandling-of Luke is one of the biggest bones of contention I’ve gotten from reading about the film.

Has there been much fan backlash for any of the EU characters that showed up in the Clone Wars cartoons? Like Maul surviving The Phantom Menace. Or how about the alterations for Admiral Thrawn on Rebels? Granted these are much smaller venues, but I would argue that the harder core fans-the ones who would be the most nitpicking about these things-watched one or both cartoons. I didn’t notice any major backlash to what was presented on these cartoons. I do remember some talk about Anakin having an apprentice and there were questions about how that all fits with Revenge of the Sith. But whatever naysayers there were got silenced because Ahsoka was a good character and Clone Wars was a good series that added to the prequel era. If Disney did adapt something like the Thrawn trilogy, New Jedi Order series, Legacy of the Force series, or Fate of the Jedi series, I don’t think it’s that hard to put out there in the marketing that this is not going to be just like those series, that it will be inspired by but we are changing some things up. As long as its good I’m okay with the changes, and I think a lot of hardcore fans would be too.

I disagree with you that fans don’t know better. One of the things that J.J. Abrams touted was that he was fan of Star Wars, and that didn’t seem to bother anyone going into TFA and it’s only been a few years where we are getting some relatively minor (IMO) criticisms of that film. Conversely, Stuart Baird was not a fan of Trek, and he gave us Star Trek: Nemesis, which people are still disappointed about. While I do appreciate if fans are involved in films, the main thing is does it have a good story and engaging characters. I think TLJ lacked a good story, and overall the sequels haven’t done a great job of producing engaging characters.

I don’t think Disney is distancing as much from the EU as you purport. I mean, how can EU fans not see similarities between Jacen and Ben? Or setting up Rey on a path similar to Jaina? Heck, if I recall Legacy of the Force, Luke didn’t provide much training to Jaina and she got some major training from Boba Fett. I personally think Disney/Lucasfilm is taking some things from the EU, perhaps because they are nods to that material and a wink to the fans, but also why recreate the wheel? Though at the same time they are trying to flex some independence so they won’t be beholden to what the EU did, which is fine. I just want it to be as good as or better than what we got in the EU, and right now I don’t think the sequel films are.

The main complaints I got from TFA was that it was too much like ANH. And the treatment of Luke is the main complaint I’m picking up from TLJ. TLJ defenders often dismiss that by saying that critics have an issue with ‘change’ and that TLJ is ‘bold, fresh, and taking Star Wars in a new direction.’ I don’t see this as an issue of change per se, but one of respecting what came before and building on that, not tearing it down for no reason except to elevate watered down replacement characters (IMO). Perhaps it is an issue of change in terms of making quality changes though, and so far I don’t think that the sequels have done that. In fact, for all the fresh boldness of TLJ the First Order became the Empire, the Resistance became the Rebellion. It’s just repeating itself, though Rian Johnson threw some curve balls in there to make it appear like it’s really different when it’s not. I don’t even mind some curve balls, I just thought Johnson did that too much and he left the sequels even more directionless.

I wanted to like the sequels, but they lost me pretty quickly in TFA and while TLJ is an improvement, I’m still not on board. And I’m a guy who liked 2/3 of the prequels, even back then. I don’t hate Attack of the Clones and I thought Revenge of the Sith was one of the best films in the whole saga.

 

[fireproof78]

I agree with you about built in expectations being a sticking point. However with a property as big as Star Wars there are going to be built in expectations of them producing a quality film, at the very least. I don’t see this so much as a built-in expectations about where the story of TLJ or the sequels should go, but how they treat the original heroes. The handling-or mishandling-of Luke is one of the biggest bones of contention I’ve gotten from reading about the film.

And I think that is a highly subjective feeling of wanting Luke to basically be unchanged in 30 years or be going a certain direction, whether that is influenced by EU expectations, or just nostalgia for the heroic figure of the OT.

Has there been much fan backlash for any of the EU characters that showed up in the Clone Wars cartoons? Like Maul surviving The Phantom Menace. Or how about the alterations for Admiral Thrawn on Rebels? Granted these are much smaller venues, but I would argue that the harder core fans-the ones who would be the most nitpicking about these things-watched one or both cartoons. I didn’t notice any major backlash to what was presented on these cartoons. I do remember some talk about Anakin having an apprentice and there were questions about how that all fits with Revenge of the Sith. But whatever naysayers there were got silenced because Ahsoka was a good character and Clone Wars was a good series that added to the prequel era. If Disney did adapt something like the Thrawn trilogy, New Jedi Order series, Legacy of the Force series, or Fate of the Jedi series, I don’t think it’s that hard to put out there in the marketing that this is not going to be just like those series, that it will be inspired by but we are changing some things up. As long as its good I’m okay with the changes, and I think a lot of hardcore fans would be too.

I've seen a fair amount of backlash against Ahsoka and Thrawn. It may not be the majority opinion but I certainly have seen it, as well as the fact that Thrawn "isn't right."

Also, I disagree that adaptation would be OK with hardcore fans. Respectfully, adapting novel often includes discarding things that don't fit the medium of film versus prose. One merely need to review Lord of the Rings or Hobbit reactions to understand that. Things will need to be discarded in some way in the adaptation process and that can produce highly negative feedback as well as expectations, because those who have read the books will have imagined it in their mind and a film will not be able to surmount that imagining.

I disagree with you that fans don’t know better. One of the things that J.J. Abrams touted was that he was fan of Star Wars, and that didn’t seem to bother anyone going into TFA and it’s only been a few years where we are getting some relatively minor (IMO) criticisms of that film. Conversely, Stuart Baird was not a fan of Trek, and he gave us Star Trek: Nemesis, which people are still disappointed about. While I do appreciate if fans are involved in films, the main thing is does it have a good story and engaging characters. I think TLJ lacked a good story, and overall the sequels haven’t done a great job of producing engaging characters.

And Nick Meyer gave us TWOK. For every Baird there is a Meyer. For every Abrams, there's a Kershner.

Also, I have found Rey, Finn and Poe far more engaging than any of the PT characters, as well as some OT ones. Mileage will vary and all that, but Rey and Finn especially have hooked me in in a way that I didn't feel with the PT.

I don’t think Disney is distancing as much from the EU as you purport. I mean, how can EU fans not see similarities between Jacen and Ben? Or setting up Rey on a path similar to Jaina? Heck, if I recall Legacy of the Force, Luke didn’t provide much training to Jaina and she got some major training from Boba Fett. I personally think Disney/Lucasfilm is taking some things from the EU, perhaps because they are nods to that material and a wink to the fans, but also why recreate the wheel? Though at the same time they are trying to flex some independence so they won’t be beholden to what the EU did, which is fine. I just want it to be as good as or better than what we got in the EU, and right now I don’t think the sequel films are.

I have no doubt they are taking things from the EU, but it's not one-to-one. If Ben is like Jacen, where is Tenal Ka or Jaina? And on and on.

They did want independence, and just because there are similarities does not mean it will end up the same way, for good or ill. Personally, I would prefer that they have the occasional wink, rather than my expecting it to be exactly from a book. Expectations are a whole lot different for me.

The main complaints I got from TFA was that it was too much like ANH. And the treatment of Luke is the main complaint I’m picking up from TLJ. TLJ defenders often dismiss that by saying that critics have an issue with ‘change’ and that TLJ is ‘bold, fresh, and taking Star Wars in a new direction.’ I don’t see this as an issue of change per se, but one of respecting what came before and building on that, not tearing it down for no reason except to elevate watered down replacement characters (IMO). Perhaps it is an issue of change in terms of making quality changes though, and so far I don’t think that the sequels have done that. In fact, for all the fresh boldness of TLJ the First Order became the Empire, the Resistance became the Rebellion. It’s just repeating itself, though Rian Johnson threw some curve balls in there to make it appear like it’s really different when it’s not. I don’t even mind some curve balls, I just thought Johnson did that too much and he left the sequels even more directionless.

And the EU eventually had the New Republic collapsing and a Rebellion rising against an evil empire. It is cyclical, and that is part of the mythology and I see it adding to and expanding the mythos rather than adhering to formula.

Now, do I think the First Order and the New Republic and the Resistance have been handled well? No, I think it could have been better, and more fleshed out. But, I'm willing to wait and see how the story ends. In other posts, I've noted my annoyance that the political landscape of the ST is unclear. But, this isn't enough to make me feel like, "Oh, I've seen this before."

I am not worried about "bold and fresh" (TPM and EBS were too much of that for me) as much as a willingness to explore consequences. Far from directionless, I think Johnson left things wide open for Abrams to wrap it up in a dynamic way.

I wanted to like the sequels, but they lost me pretty quickly in TFA and while TLJ is an improvement, I’m still not on board. And I’m a guy who liked 2/3 of the prequels, even back then. I don’t hate Attack of the Clones and I thought Revenge of the Sith was one of the best films in the whole saga.

I love Attack of the Clones-to me, it is one of the best of the PT, and has some great interactions with Anakin, Padme and Obi-Wan. I had fun with it, which is a whole lot more than I can say about ROTS.

Different experiences and all that, but TFA hooked me with Rey and Finn and I've been onboard to see how these characters find their way in the galaxy. I feel less like I know what's going to happen, especially with Luke and Rey.

 

[Mage]

Then let me just refer you to the way Mark Hamill himself thinks and feels about it

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

I agree with Mark, fans that weren't there in 1977 to see it all get started might never really understand the older fan base that is with Mark on this one, and that's ok I am very happy a new generation of SW fans is here and enjoy it.

Good for Mark. Doesn't mean I or every other fan needs to agree with it.

 

[Tuskin38]

Size Comparison of the Resistance Bomber and First Order Dreadnought

 

[Mage]

That sounds a bit like you're saying that most people who didn't like it are somehow less discriminating. What makes TLJ less "cookiecutter" than previous SW films?

I think by cookie cutter, he's referring to something like TFA that was very much meant to be a fan pleaser, coming close to being a remake of ANH.

For many of us, it was nice to see a movie that took a few more chances and did not go the way many expected.

What theenglish said, basicly. TLJ was a breath of fresh air to me. I loved TFA, but there were so many cliches in there. And sure, TLJ had some aswell. But.... the wise old sage wasn't. The plucky hero was NOT some chosen one from a mightly lineage. Our hero flyboy turned out NOT to be right in thinking the new leader was wrong and making bad choices, it was him in stead. I could go on.... So yeah, less cookie cutter plots and characters, more bold choices.

 

[DarKush]

Fireproof78,

I don’t see this necessarily as an issue of fans wanting Luke to be ‘unchanged’ since ROTJ. I’m generalizing here, but the impression I get-which I share-is that many fans wanted to see him portrayed differently, one that built on the lessons he learned in the original trilogy. I felt that TLJ had Luke toss a lot of those lessons away to fit the demands of Johnson’s story and wasn’t an organic evolution of the character. It was a devolution. Do characters, as real-life people regress sometimes? Yeah, they do, but it was a disappointing direction to take Luke in, especially after we saw Han devolve as well in TFA. One could simply argue that it is highly subjective as well to support the changes made to TLJ Luke as well. It boils down to a matter of taste here, and no side is right or wrong. I do think it’s not fair that some TLJ defenders accuse critics of being afraid of change when the issue could be the quality of that change instead.

I didn’t say any adaptation would be automatically okay with hardcore fans, but that I didn’t get the idea that adapting previous material is a bad thing. I do think that adapting some popular EU stories would get some buzz among some hardcore fans though. I wasn’t aware of any backlash against Thrawn, but I mentioned some of the talk around Ahsoka. I got the impression that Ahsoka was pretty much accepted now. It seemed like her being on Rebels was met with a positive response.

Good point about Meyer, etc. However, you pointed out that fans aren’t the best stewards of a franchise like Star Wars, and the examples I provided were to refute that. Though I would say that both of your examples might not have started out as fans of their respective franchises, but by this point I think it would questionable to still consider them non-fans since they’ve went back to the well. I digress, but the larger point is that quality stories can come from non-fans or fans. Non-fans have the ability perhaps to not get lost in the weeds or the minutia, to look at it like an average movie goer. While a fan might be aware of the small little things, character moments, nods to other fans, etc., that can make a story extra special. Being a fan of a franchise shouldn't automatically disqualify a person from working on projects they are fans of, or should automatically make consumers wary about the product.

As for the sequel characters I’m glad you do like them. They haven’t engaged me really, despite the talented actors. And I’ve written before how I find the depiction of Finn often offensive (especially in TFA), so that lowers the sequels overall in my eyes even more. I enjoyed the original trilogy characters quite a bit. Read a lot of their adventures in comics and novels, so yeah, I can understand some fan disappointment if they feel characters they invested a lot of time and money in following get shoddy treatment. Disney or Lucasfilm can do what they want to do, that’s their right, but as a fan, as a consumer, I also think we should at the least be able to voice our concerns over it. Same with Mark Hamill who lived the character of Luke while Rian Johnson was eating Fruit Loops. Johnson was the director, Disney is the owner of the franchise, but do I think either know Luke like Hamill? No, I don’t.

I didn’t expect any adaptation to be exactly like the books they draw it from. That’s almost impossible to do because of the different mediums.

You are right that there was a cyclical nature to the EU in some respects, with a replay of the Clone Wars conflict, of sorts, in the Legacy of the Force novel series. That actually disappointed me that they did that retread in that novel, though it was thankfully more of a backdrop thing as the focus was on the rise of Darth Caedus. Ironically, while I am happy to see the original heroes in the films again (don’t like their treatment overall), I actually got tired of seeing Han and Leia at least in the post-NJO novels because I felt they were shoehorned in. I wanted to see the younger heroes (Jacen, Jaina, Lowbacca, Ben Skywalker, etc.). So, for me, there is an issue of I don’t like these new sequel characters much, I don’t think the sequels have actually done enough to distance themselves from the original trilogy, but are regurgitating it with lesser (IMO) characters. I don’t see a need for some to criticize the EU since Disney is following in their footsteps to some extent.

Johnson left things wide open because Disney/Lucasfilm had no unified plan for these sequel films. That’s not some grand vision there. Even recently Johnson is backtracking on the idea of Rey’s parentage. Disney is just making this up as they go along.

Regarding expectations, most people weren’t pushing back at the tons of complaints about the prequel films because those didn’t meet expectations. The consensus was those films weren’t good and that was that. What the sequel films do have to contend with, that the prequels mostly don’t, is a post-ROTJ future in the EU for a basis of comparison. But I don’t get that the fan ire against TLJ is coming from mostly EU lovers here. I am a fan of the EU and some of my disappointment with the sequels are because they are covering some similar territory that the EU did but are doing it in a poorer way.

It is cool that you like Rey and Finn. I was curious about how well the new characters were catching on. I didn’t see much there with Rey, Finn, or Poe, but I am glad that you do. It’s just that the sequels aren’t my Star Wars. I did like Rogue One (the story was unnecessary but I liked it) and I still like the Marvel Star Wars comics, but I’m struggling with the post-ROTJ books in the new canon.

The sequels and the other new material needs to generate new fans and it appears to be doing that. I don’t know how fandom will change in the coming years and if it will be as dedicated as the generation one/original trilogy fans. I’m skeptical it will, but we’ll see. And it will be interesting to see in another 20 years or so when it’s time to roll back out Rey, Finn, and Poe if they will be treated like the original trilogy heroes, cast off for the next generation instead of getting a more respectful passing of the torch. To me, how Dr. McCoy passed the torch to Data and TNG was the way you handle it, and from TNG to ENT, each did a great job of passing the torch.

Disney feels a need to deconstruct the old heroes, as if to delegitimize them, and I don’t get why they need to do that. Let the old heroes have their glory. I also don’t like how some of the Hollywood media is attacking old fans or lecturing to old fans, many of which kept the fire of Star Wars burning from ROTJ to TPM and continued supporting, despite many of their misgivings, the prequels, and have been on board for TFA and even TLJ, until some saw how Luke was depicted. But now, all of a sudden, these fans are wrong and should get with the program or shut up or go somewhere else. While the old fans didn’t build the house of Star Wars, they maintained it for 40 years and should be treated with more respect by the powers that be.

 

[Timby]

I don’t see this as an issue of change per se, but one of respecting what came before and building on that, not tearing it down for no reason except to elevate watered down replacement characters (IMO).

A common complaint I've heard is that The Last Jedi pisses all over what we know about the Jedi ... except the Jedi were always fools. Obi-Wan is literally a lying piece of shit, and he and Yoda manipulate Luke to try to get him to assassinate his own father. And in the prequels, the Jedi are arrogant sacks of shit who literally bring about their own downfall because of their attachment to dogma.

 

[fireproof78]

Fireproof78,

I don’t see this necessarily as an issue of fans wanting Luke to be ‘unchanged’ since ROTJ. I’m generalizing here, but the impression I get-which I share-is that many fans wanted to see him portrayed differently, one that built on the lessons he learned in the original trilogy. I felt that TLJ had Luke toss a lot of those lessons away to fit the demands of Johnson’s story and wasn’t an organic evolution of the character. It was a devolution. Do characters, as real-life people regress sometimes? Yeah, they do, but it was a disappointing direction to take Luke in, especially after we saw Han devolve as well in TFA. One could simply argue that it is highly subjective as well to support the changes made to TLJ Luke as well. It boils down to a matter of taste here, and no side is right or wrong. I do think it’s not fair that some TLJ defenders accuse critics of being afraid of change when the issue could be the quality of that change instead.

If that's the case, then I think the quality of the change was actually very interesting from a character point of view. Regression doesn't bother me-at all. Let characters go through their ups and downs, doubts and struggles. Let 30 years be a weary thing, let tough choices, mistakes, haunt them.

No matter what, Luke felt very real to me in TLJ.

I didn’t say any adaptation would be automatically okay with hardcore fans, but that I didn’t get the idea that adapting previous material is a bad thing. I do think that adapting some popular EU stories would get some buzz among some hardcore fans though. I wasn’t aware of any backlash against Thrawn, but I mentioned some of the talk around Ahsoka. I got the impression that Ahsoka was pretty much accepted now. It seemed like her being on Rebels was met with a positive response.

The general response to her initially was skepticism and irritation, at least from what I read. I know it changed, but the idea that it was welcome is a misnomer.

Good point about Meyer, etc. However, you pointed out that fans aren’t the best stewards of a franchise like Star Wars, and the examples I provided were to refute that. Though I would say that both of your examples might not have started out as fans of their respective franchises, but by this point I think it would questionable to still consider them non-fans since they’ve went back to the well. I digress, but the larger point is that quality stories can come from non-fans or fans. Non-fans have the ability perhaps to not get lost in the weeds or the minutia, to look at it like an average movie goer. While a fan might be aware of the small little things, character moments, nods to other fans, etc., that can make a story extra special. Being a fan of a franchise shouldn't automatically disqualify a person from working on projects they are fans of, or should automatically make consumers wary about the product.

Since I'm skeptical of products, regardless of producer, I don't disqualify either fan or non-fan by virtue of that label. I look at their work instead because quality will speak to quality.

I just think that fans will be more hesitant to "kill their darlings" rather than tell a good story.

As for the sequel characters I’m glad you do like them. They haven’t engaged me really, despite the talented actors. And I’ve written before how I find the depiction of Finn often offensive (especially in TFA), so that lowers the sequels overall in my eyes even more. I enjoyed the original trilogy characters quite a bit. Read a lot of their adventures in comics and novels, so yeah, I can understand some fan disappointment if they feel characters they invested a lot of time and money in following get shoddy treatment. Disney or Lucasfilm can do what they want to do, that’s their right, but as a fan, as a consumer, I also think we should at the least be able to voice our concerns over it. Same with Mark Hamill who lived the character of Luke while Rian Johnson was eating Fruit Loops. Johnson was the director, Disney is the owner of the franchise, but do I think either know Luke like Hamill? No, I don’t.

And GR didn't know Spock. There will always be conflict on that front between actors and producers. I don't feel like it's "shoddy" treatment the way Luke was treated. Would I have written it that way? Nope, not a chance in the world. But, can I appreciate what was done? Absolutely.

And, as a side note, I haven't read the novels or comics for the new characters. I just identify with them even though I read far more about the PT characters or OT characters.

Please, voice your complaints. Won't bother me none. But, I'll disagree that Disney doesn't know what their doing.

I didn’t expect any adaptation to be exactly like the books they draw it from. That’s almost impossible to do because of the different mediums.

That will never, ever, stop complaints. And the EU is still being used as a benchmark so expectations are already been made.

You are right that there was a cyclical nature to the EU in some respects, with a replay of the Clone Wars conflict, of sorts, in the Legacy of the Force novel series. That actually disappointed me that they did that retread in that novel, though it was thankfully more of a backdrop thing as the focus was on the rise of Darth Caedus. Ironically, while I am happy to see the original heroes in the films again (don’t like their treatment overall), I actually got tired of seeing Han and Leia at least in the post-NJO novels because I felt they were shoehorned in. I wanted to see the younger heroes (Jacen, Jaina, Lowbacca, Ben Skywalker, etc.). So, for me, there is an issue of I don’t like these new sequel characters much, I don’t think the sequels have actually done enough to distance themselves from the original trilogy, but are regurgitating it with lesser (IMO) characters. I don’t see a need for some to criticize the EU since Disney is following in their footsteps to some extent.

I think that Episode IX will be the make or break. I feel like what was ok in the EU is not ok in the ST, and that bothers me.

Johnson left things wide open because Disney/Lucasfilm had no unified plan for these sequel films. That’s not some grand vision there. Even recently Johnson is backtracking on the idea of Rey’s parentage. Disney is just making this up as they go along.

So did Lucas. That is the nature of film making and not everything needs a grand unified theory.

Regarding expectations, most people weren’t pushing back at the tons of complaints about the prequel films because those didn’t meet expectations. The consensus was those films weren’t good and that was that. What the sequel films do have to contend with, that the prequels mostly don’t, is a post-ROTJ future in the EU for a basis of comparison. But I don’t get that the fan ire against TLJ is coming from mostly EU lovers here. I am a fan of the EU and some of my disappointment with the sequels are because they are covering some similar territory that the EU did but are doing it in a poorer way.

I must have had a different PT experience. The push back was on expectations that I saw, and the films being poorly done was just insult to injury.

I had expectations about the PT and I know my friends did as well. There were RPGs, radio dramas, novels and the like that had started to fill in those gaps about the Old Republic. They built up Palpatine and the Clone Wars in a different way. So, the way TPM explored those ideas was surprising, to say the least.

It is cool that you like Rey and Finn. I was curious about how well the new characters were catching on. I didn’t see much there with Rey, Finn, or Poe, but I am glad that you do. It’s just that the sequels aren’t my Star Wars. I did like Rogue One (the story was unnecessary but I liked it) and I still like the Marvel Star Wars comics, but I’m struggling with the post-ROTJ books in the new canon.

I haven't read them so I cannot comment.

The sequels and the other new material needs to generate new fans and it appears to be doing that. I don’t know how fandom will change in the coming years and if it will be as dedicated as the generation one/original trilogy fans. I’m skeptical it will, but we’ll see. And it will be interesting to see in another 20 years or so when it’s time to roll back out Rey, Finn, and Poe if they will be treated like the original trilogy heroes, cast off for the next generation instead of getting a more respectful passing of the torch. To me, how Dr. McCoy passed the torch to Data and TNG was the way you handle it, and from TNG to ENT, each did a great job of passing the torch.

That's nice and nostalgic but doesn't work for me. Because the heroes are still heroes. There just a little more worn, a little more weary, and needed to move past that "Legend" status.

Disney feels a need to deconstruct the old heroes, as if to delegitimize them, and I don’t get why they need to do that. Let the old heroes have their glory. I also don’t like how some of the Hollywood media is attacking old fans or lecturing to old fans, many of which kept the fire of Star Wars burning from ROTJ to TPM and continued supporting, despite many of their misgivings, the prequels, and have been on board for TFA and even TLJ, until some saw how Luke was depicted. But now, all of a sudden, these fans are wrong and should get with the program or shut up or go somewhere else. While the old fans didn’t build the house of Star Wars, they maintained it for 40 years and should be treated with more respect by the powers that be.

The heroes still have their glory. Where did it go? Was Luke, Han and Leia deconstructed with the New Republic collapsed? Was Jacen's going to the Dark Side a referendum on Luke?

Disney will defend its own, for good or for ill. GL did similar things. Again, this feels very much like these things are bad because Disney did them, rather than just being bad on their own. I still have misgivings over the PT, and will for a long time. I've been told to get over it by several individuals. I was told that I should like Jar-Jar because I liked C-3PO, and on and on. I defended some of the romantic dialog in AOTC because Anakin's awkwardness almost made sense.

I saw people wanting to sue George Lucas for his defamation of the franchise for the PT. That he had ruined Obi-Wan and the Jedi. I was told that the OT was "incomplete" and "unfinished." On and on.

All of this is, of course, extremely binary, built on teenager emotional reactions. So, looking back, no I didn't hate the PT. I found things to like and things to not like, but generally didn't enjoy them as much. I felt that Obi-Wan and Yoda were not well portrayed and it diminished their role a bit in the OT.

I don't love the ST. There is more good to me than disappointment, though. I think it is well done.

In the end, I know I'm weird, because I just watch the films. Maybe it is mindless, but I'm ok with taking a film as it is. I don't think anything was "ruined" or "deconstructed" in a way that diminishes the Big 3 or their accomplishments. If anything, it reflects upon the great necessity that the galaxy needed those heroic figures and that new heroes needed to rise.

 

[bigglesworth]

Fireproof78,

I don’t see this necessarily as an issue of fans wanting Luke to be ‘unchanged’ since ROTJ...

Excellent points IMHO. And great points about TNG/TOS (I'll throw DS9 and VOY in there too). In the TNG era series and movies, all of the heroes of TOS were treated respectfully. I believe the only hero/heroine we didn't see was Uhura, which is too bad; An episode with Nichelle Nichols would have been great. Many people might point to GEN's handling of Kirk, but I believe it was only how Kirk's death was treated, not the character itself.

I'm not really sure why Disney chose to have the OT heroes (at least the male OT heroes) regress (or worse). Han went from being a smuggler to hero of the galaxy, back to being a smuggler. Luke goes from being a farmboy, to hero of the galaxy and Jedi Knight, to a hermit living in seclusion while the galaxy burns around him. As I and many others have mentioned, Leia seems to be the only character that grew from when we last saw her.

 

[fireproof78]

Many people might point to GEN's handling of Kirk, but I believe it was only how Kirk's death was treated, not the character itself.

No, I thought GEN Kirk was treated way to much as a superhero.

I'm not really sure why Disney chose to have the OT heroes (at least the male OT heroes) regress (or worse). Han went from being a smuggler to hero of the galaxy, back to being a smuggler. Luke goes from being a farmboy, to hero of the galaxy and Jedi Knight, to a hermit living in seclusion while the galaxy burns around him. As I and many others have mentioned, Leia seems to be the only character that grew from when we last saw her.

Can I ask how losing your family member to the Dark Side of the Force, after fighting against it for years, would affect someone?

 

[DarKush]

A common complaint I've heard is that The Last Jedi pisses all over what we know about the Jedi ... except the Jedi were always fools. Obi-Wan is literally a lying piece of shit, and he and Yoda manipulate Luke to try to get him to assassinate his own father. And in the prequels, the Jedi are arrogant sacks of shit who literally bring about their own downfall because of their attachment to dogma.

The Jedi were arrogant, cloistered, and IMO had a wrong-headed idea about emotional attachment, which itself was hypocritical because the prequels clearly showed the affection shared among the Jedi for each other. They had become stagnant. All that being said, the Jedi did protect the Republic for thousands of years, and they also upheld their duty even to a Republic that was corrupting within. Perhaps it was a fault of theirs that they didn’t take a more active role, but at the same time that was an honorable thing. They let the (mostly) non-powered, average politicians and citizens determine their fates and the Jedi mostly stuck to upholding the law even when it might have been the more moral thing not to (ex. Qui-Gon not freeing both Shmi and Anakin).

Why is what Obi-Wan and Yoda did a bad thing and the much praised TLJ Luke is essentially doing the same thing with Rey, leaving her alone (with less training than Obi-Wan or Yoda gave Luke) to clean up his mess? Luke’s mess is more his than Obi-Wan and Yoda were responsible for the fall of the Republic. People voted Palpatine into power and he seemed to have used mostly legal means to stay in power. The Jedi actually did err in trying to forcibly remove him from power, giving Palpatine a legitimacy, and playing right into his hands. Luke also gave his version of the events, which was countered by Ren, similar to how Vader’s revelation upturned Luke’s thoughts about Vader in TESB.

The Jedi were flawed, and while TLJ’s flawed Luke is praised, the flawed prequel era Jedi are to lambasted? And are the sequels going to create something better than the Jedi Order? If anything, Rey stealing the Jedi Order books means that she will continue the Jedi, and likely build a new order, with some tweaks from what came before, similar to Luke’s New Jedi Order in the EU.

What we missed out on in the sequels is seeing a Luke attempt to build another Jedi Order, to take the good stuff from the past and correct the mistakes. We didn't get to see that. We just got a guy who ran from his responsibilities when it got too hard for him. (Obi-Wan didn't run, he had Luke to watch after. I'll give you Yoda running. Though in the ROTS novelization, Yoda did realize that the Sith had evolved and the Jedi were not and he didn't know how to defeat them. So I'll take it that he went away to learn more about the Force, and how to become a Force ghost). That might be 'real' but keep in mind Luke is a fantasy character, the hero of the biggest fantasy series in the world (sorry LOTR and Game of Thrones fans). We got a guy who would murder his own nephew in his sleep, even if the thought passed in seconds. It was enough to haunt him and make him cut himself off from the Force. (At least Yoda was communing with the Force, growing in his understanding. Luke was sulking). We got a guy who would allow the First Order to fester and grow, imperiling his sister, his friends, and the galaxy, while he was having a pity party. It is quite shocking to go from the hopeful hero at the end of ROTJ, who had defied his elders and redeemed his father, to a guy who had given up hope. It doesn't feel like a natural progression of the character IMO. It felt too drastic and storyline dictated.

 

[DarKush]

Excellent points IMHO. And great points about TNG/TOS (I'll throw DS9 and VOY in there too). In the TNG era series and movies, all of the heroes of TOS were treated respectfully. I believe the only hero/heroine we didn't see was Uhura, which is too bad; An episode with Nichelle Nichols would have been great. Many people might point to GEN's handling of Kirk, but I believe it was only how Kirk's death was treated, not the character itself.

I'm not really sure why Disney chose to have the OT heroes (at least the male OT heroes) regress (or worse). Han went from being a smuggler to hero of the galaxy, back to being a smuggler. Luke goes from being a farmboy, to hero of the galaxy and Jedi Knight, to a hermit living in seclusion while the galaxy burns around him. As I and many others have mentioned, Leia seems to be the only character that grew from when we last saw her.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying here. Like you, I thought that they handled Leia better than Han and Luke. But the more I thought about it, they threw dirt on her character as well but just in a less obvious way. She's the general of a losing war (at least by TLJ; with the Resistance all but wiped out). She doesn't have the political skills or support (despite all she did for the Rebellion) to rally the New Republic in TFA and that carries over into TLJ. So, is Leia warmonger? Trying to pull the New Republic into a war that they didn't want to fight? And did her efforts actually antagonize the First Order to go even harder against the New Republic? To wipe them out or speed up the timeline to wipe them out?

And she's basically a parent who while not giving up on Ben Solo, sort of does, because we haven't seen any story, to my knowledge, where she went after Ben, tried to talk to Ben about his dark turn, or confronted Snoke. It was almost like both she and Han were absentee parents. I liked the EU having Leia be a Jedi eventually and I think that even the Disney canon has that Luke wanted to train Leia at some point but it didn't happen. If Leia had whipped out a lightsaber at any point in this sequel that would've been cool. But to your larger points, the male characters have gotten the lions' share of deconstruction.

 

[DarKush]

If you're referring to Finn and Rey, the romantic feeling was there; in TFA, Finn expressed that not long after their escape in the Falcon (te "boyfriend" question), plainly laying it out there that their care for each other was not purely "lost child"/"buddy-buddy", Moreover, and in the final moments of TLJ, the look on Rey's face as she watched Finn tending to Rose said it all: after her pure jot of reuniting with Finn, the Rose moment left her feeling as if her chance had slipped away. She was not going to behave that way from the thought of Finn simply making a new friend. There was minor producer obligation to build on what was established in TFA, but the general treatment of Finn (covered pages ago) and the gross blowback from parts of the fan community to even the suggestion of a Finn-Rey romance had Rose dropped in with her out-of-nowhere "love" line.

Further, every SW trilogy follows a formula with a building romance between main characters; we know who played that part in the OT & PT, and its clear which ST characters were placed in that category. Two films in, and there's no indication Finn or Rey felt anything for anyone else on that level, despite some fans trying to wish that last-second Poe introduction into a storybook romance for the ages.

This prompted a question. There's StormPilot and Reylo, but far as I know no big push for a Rey/Finn 'ship. Is there a Rinn? Or Fey? group (s) out there pushing for this romance?

 

[DarKush]

No, I thought GEN Kirk was treated way to much as a superhero.

Can I ask how losing your family member to the Dark Side of the Force, after fighting against it for years, would affect someone?

Good question. You can respond in different ways. But we have some precedent where Luke is concerned that he decided to dig in his heels and bring Vader back to the light side be damned, and he didn’t know Vader. And basically just about everything likely told to him about his father by Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru was a lie or heavily edited truth. Yet, (I’m assuming) he knows Ben. He likely has been part of his life since Ben’s birth. Was Ben’s mind really so dark that Luke felt no other option than to kill him, even if it was a short feeling? It was long enough for him to draw and light his lightsaber. In ROTJ, Luke threw away his lightsaber to resist his own dark impulses or the Emperor’s seduction. One would think that an older and wiser Luke than the one in ROTJ would’ve developed different ways to cope with dark side temptation than drawing his lightsaber.

What the sequels have done is have Luke, Leia, and Han run away from the problem of Ben, which is understandable and human sometimes, if you have a child, a loved one, who is doing something destructive to themselves or others. This ignores that we are talking about fictional characters, some with extraordinary powers, skills, and/or resources. To let Ben join up with Snoke, knowing how destructive and powerful Ben is, is a pretty big dereliction from all concerned, especially Luke. It makes me wonder if TLJ was the first time Luke had spoken to Leia since Ben destroyed the temple. I wonder that because I can’t see them talking about Ben and not deciding to go do something to bring him back, no matter the cost before TFA started.

 

[fireproof78]

What we missed out on in the sequels is seeing a Luke attempt to build another Jedi Order, to take the good stuff from the past and correct the mistakes.

We did see that.

What the sequels have done is have Luke, Leia, and Han run away from the problem of Ben, which is understandable and human sometimes, if you have a child, a loved one, who is doing something destructive to themselves or others. This ignores that we are talking about fictional characters, some with extraordinary powers, skills, and/or resources. To let Ben join up with Snoke, knowing how destructive and powerful Ben is, is a pretty big dereliction from all concerned, especially Luke. It makes me wonder if TLJ was the first time Luke had spoken to Leia since Ben destroyed the temple. I wonder that because I can’t see them talking about Ben and not deciding to go do something to bring him back, no matter the cost before TFA started.

To me, it's more the darkness struck so close to home, that the potential betrayal of all that Luke had worked towards could be undone by his own family. That is shattering to a human not matter their power.

I read a story about a man who was taken in my the German police for being a dissenter. He endured a work camp because he had his family to go back to. When he was finally released, he discovered his own son had turned him in to the government. He committed suicide.

I know it's a story, and applying real world logic may ring hollow to some. For me, this makes Luke more sympathetic. He had a moment of weakness and that weakness scared him even more. He was terrified of making more mistakes. I work in the mental health field. Do you know how many people, formerly successful at life, are rendered crippled and anxious because they fear making mistakes? Even when I was a manager in retail, I would have to work with staff members to get over the fear of failing.

Luke did try, and failed, and that failure scarred him. Maybe I'm too generous, but I find that more engaging than a Luke who tried, failed, and was fine off screen.